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  #1  
Old 12/19/2007, 02:02 PM
Randy Holmes-Farley Randy Holmes-Farley is offline
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New Dowflake OK to Boost Calcium in Salt Mixes

As I've mentioned in other threads for years, I use Instant Ocean and boost the typical 360 ppm calcium by 70 ppm with Dowflake (and magnesium by 150 ppm with MAG flake).

Folks are now thinking about the new Dow formulation with extra bromide, so I wanted to pass along my thoughts on how it impacts this particular use.

A 70 ppm boost to calcium will boost bromide by about 2 ppm (about 3%). That is a small change (likely within the specifications that any salt mix will have for bromide), and at a 1% per day water change rate that I perform, it is added over a 3 month period.

IMO, that is no concern at all.
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  #2  
Old 12/19/2007, 10:49 PM
Boomer Boomer is offline
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Ok but have you figured it for tanks with high Ca++ demands / day using DIY two-parts and using IO boosts. Maybe we jumped the gun here also ?

If I took your 70 ppm and 3 % and assumed a Ca++ demand / day was 10 ppm or 70 ppm / wk in a 3 month time that would be an increase , with the boost and no WC, to about ~25 - 30 ppm Bromide correct ? And at a NSW Br of 65 ppm it would only approach to ~ 100 ppm if none of it is used.
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  #3  
Old 12/20/2007, 07:01 AM
Randy Holmes-Farley Randy Holmes-Farley is offline
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Since we do not know the depletion rate for bromide in aquaria, nor what particularly happens when it is elevated, it is hard to say if someone were to boost it a few percent each day whether that is OK. That might be OK, especially if a lot of macroalgae were converting the bromide to organic forms and those got exported by skimming or macroalgae harvesting.

But it is a fair question, and it is not clear that two parts made with the new material are necessarily unacceptable.
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  #4  
Old 12/20/2007, 10:03 AM
Donw Donw is offline
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Any idea how this effects those of us that use ozone and rely on large percentage water changes of over 100% per week with IO boosted with dow flake.

Don
  #5  
Old 12/20/2007, 10:23 AM
Randy Holmes-Farley Randy Holmes-Farley is offline
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Water changes will help. I don't think ozone makes a difference, since IO has lots of bromide already.
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  #6  
Old 12/20/2007, 10:25 AM
Boomer Boomer is offline
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I do not see that Don being an issue even though you are using ozone.
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  #7  
Old 12/20/2007, 11:29 PM
Kalkbreath Kalkbreath is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
Water changes will help. I don't think ozone makes a difference, since IO has lots of bromide already.
Do we really know what the current levels of bromide are in Commercial salt mixes? Perhaps they use DOW Calcium.
  #8  
Old 12/21/2007, 07:00 AM
Randy Holmes-Farley Randy Holmes-Farley is offline
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They may, but I expect they also saw the warning and accounted for it. The amount of bromide that would come in with 420 ppm calcium using the Dow material is substantially less than would be required overall to match bromide in NSW.

FWIW, bromide is the eighth most common ion in seawater. So there is quite a lot of it required in salt mixes.
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  #9  
Old 12/22/2007, 05:44 PM
dadonoflaw dadonoflaw is offline
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so for daily maintenance of calcium some other strategy is still necessary?
  #10  
Old 12/22/2007, 11:39 PM
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We are not sure but it is a good idea to go that route.
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  #11  
Old 12/23/2007, 04:13 PM
Kalkbreath Kalkbreath is offline
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When DOW states that the new Calcium flake contains 7,000. ppm bromide, does this mean that for every 1,000,000 calcium parts there are seven thousand bromide parts?

And when Instant Ocean states that their product contains 70 ppm bromide..... Does this mean that their product ( the dry salt) contains 70 ppm bromide or that their product after its mixed with water? (at the correct salinity) contains 70ppm bromide?

If a bag of IO contains about four pounds calcium and a hobbyists adds about four pounds of high bromide calcium to replace calcium lost in their aquarium (through calcium supplements). ... what is the math to compute new level of bromide.

Seawater = 67.3 bromide parts per million total parts in ocean water.

If seven bromide parts for each 1,000 calcium parts = new DOW

and I add four pounds of this new DOW calcium to a fifty gallon aquarium over the course of a few months to replace calcium used up by the systems inhabitants. And I know that four pounds of calcium in fifty gallons of water yields a product of 360 ppm calcium.

What is the new Bromide level ?(assuming that none has been removed) The new bromide plus the original which came in with the IO seasalt.

Would the added bromide still be at the same ratio as it was when it was dry flake?

Then this would translate into the added bromide content still being one 7000th of the calcium.

One 7000th of the 360 ppm calcium would be less then one-tenth ppm. so the bromide level would have been raised by the new DOW calcium by a tiny less then one ppm .

Last edited by Kalkbreath; 12/23/2007 at 04:23 PM.
  #12  
Old 12/23/2007, 05:46 PM
stressed damsel stressed damsel is offline
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I have several 50lb. bags of Dowflake , after reading this I checked the package for lot bumbers. I found several numbers on the bags but none that state "lot" Where would I find the number? I did see 11/19/04 on the bags after a real long number.
  #13  
Old 12/24/2007, 04:55 PM
AquaDiva AquaDiva is offline
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Try this:

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  #14  
Old 12/24/2007, 04:58 PM
AquaDiva AquaDiva is offline
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Here is a Dow site that, although not for Dowflake, seems to apply somewhat to Dowflake. At least the date of manufacture seems to be correct as the above bag was purchased in 05.

http://www.dow.com/causticsoda/qual/lot.htm
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  #15  
Old 12/26/2007, 01:00 PM
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My bag has a sticker on the bottom.
UK0301HI11
Going by the lot/batch code, this was made in Nov 3, 2006.

I just found this, which says DowFlake 77-80%, what we use, is being replaced by DowFlake Xtra 83-87%.
http://news.dow.com/prodbus/2006/20060717c.htm
What I get out of this is any DowFlake is good. All the new stuff made in 07 is the DowFlake Xtra.
Makes sense because I got the last bag of DowFlake at the supply store and all the new pallets were Xtra.

Last edited by cccapt; 12/26/2007 at 01:58 PM.
  #16  
Old 12/28/2007, 02:47 PM
renogaw renogaw is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by cccapt
My bag has a sticker on the bottom.
UK0301HI11
Going by the lot/batch code, this was made in Nov 3, 2006.

I just found this, which says DowFlake 77-80%, what we use, is being replaced by DowFlake Xtra 83-87%.
http://news.dow.com/prodbus/2006/20060717c.htm
What I get out of this is any DowFlake is good. All the new stuff made in 07 is the DowFlake Xtra.
Makes sense because I got the last bag of DowFlake at the supply store and all the new pallets were Xtra.

any dow product with a lot code starting with a letter prior to V is not affected by the change. You'rs starts with U, so you're fine.
  #17  
Old 12/28/2007, 10:13 PM
tongareefer tongareefer is offline
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CAn anyone tell me where to find Dow & Mag flakes?
  #18  
Old 12/29/2007, 05:38 AM
renogaw renogaw is offline
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your best bet is going to be an agway or some big box store that sells icemelt.
  #19  
Old 12/30/2007, 07:19 PM
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so dowflake is ok to use?
  #20  
Old 12/31/2007, 07:12 AM
cccapt cccapt is offline
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According to this Dow statement, http://news.dow.com/prodbus/2006/20060717c.htm, the "new" DowFlake with the high bromide is now called DowFlake Xtra. What I take this to mean is any bag that still says DowFlake is good. The new stuff has a new name.
  #21  
Old 12/31/2007, 09:31 AM
Randy Holmes-Farley Randy Holmes-Farley is offline
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When DOW states that the new Calcium flake contains 7,000. ppm bromide, does this mean that for every 1,000,000 calcium parts there are seven thousand bromide parts?

No. It is 7,00 ppm bromide and about 280,000 ppm calcium.

And when Instant Ocean states that their product contains 70 ppm bromide..... Does this mean that their product ( the dry salt) contains 70 ppm bromide or that their product after its mixed with water? (at the correct salinity) contains 70 ppm bromide?

I've not seen exactly what they claim, but that is in the final mixed salt water.

4 pounds (1816 g) of Dowflake will contain about 12.7 grams of bromide, if I did the calculation correctly. That will boost 50 gallons by about 70 ppm bromide, or a doubling, if there is no depletion.


so dowflake is ok to use?

It is OK to use as I stated in the first post. It may or may not be OK to use in routine supplementation, depending on how much is used and how fast bromide is depleted (unknown but certainly varies tank to tank).
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  #22  
Old 01/02/2008, 01:54 PM
Kalkbreath Kalkbreath is offline
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What I meant to say is "DOW flake calcium" not simply "calcium".

As in the "product "not the "element".


For every one million DOW flake parts , you will find that seven-thousand of those million parts are bromide.


Randy, what is the formula you used for converting Bromide grams to ppm seawater?
  #23  
Old 01/02/2008, 02:11 PM
Randy Holmes-Farley Randy Holmes-Farley is offline
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Yes, it means for every one million parts by weight of total product, there are 7,000 parts by weight of bromide.


So the amount of bromide added is about 7,000/1,000,000 times the total weight added.

or

the amount of bromide added is about 7,000/280,000 times the amount of calcium added. So for a 100 ppm rise in calcium, that is 100 x 7,000/280,000 = 2.5 ppm.
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  #24  
Old 01/02/2008, 05:23 PM
speeddemonlsr speeddemonlsr is offline
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Randy I have been using Prestone driveway heat for raising my calcium is that still okay to use?
  #25  
Old 01/03/2008, 05:54 AM
Randy Holmes-Farley Randy Holmes-Farley is offline
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It is made by Dow and so may have elevated bromide in it. If you use it as described in this thread, it is fine. If you use it to supplement calcium routinely, it might elevate bromide in the tank.
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