Rock "Cooking"--a dangerous trend or something worthwhile?

[finneganswake]

Originally posted by gman0526
And my argument is that you can save 100's of dollars in guess work and new equipment to control an algae breakout. May I say PO4 binders/reactors/media, blah, blah, blah.? For each "cooking rock" reccomendation ,there's one out there to get a PO4 binder media/reactor.

This is fun

Nice--that's the argument people originally gave for skimmers! Get with the picture, grandpa!

EDIT--I meant to say AGAINST skimmers--that they weren't worth the money as you could control algae with massive water changes.

[finneganswake]

Originally posted by Ereefic
The whole time it's cooking, it's shedding detritus into the cooking bin, giving the pods food, keeping them alive. You dunk and swish the rock, empty and clean the cooking bin and put new SW and rock back in. Rock sheds more, feeding the pods, so on and so forth. How does this kill pods?

Ok, let me get this straight--according to you, you EMPTY the cooking bin of detritus and said detritus is going to feed the pods? I'm lost

[Ereefic]

Yes, you are lost. After you empty the bin and clean it out, the rocks will shed again (in the bin, with the water that the pods are in) feeding the pods.

[gman0526]

Originally posted by finneganswake
Nice--that's the argument people originally gave for skimmers! Get with the picture, grandpa!

I know... skimmers, another "crazy fad" proven right by "crazy people" going against the establishment.

It's awesome that you can actually troll your own thread.

[finneganswake]

Originally posted by Ereefic
Yes, you are lost. After you empty the bin and clean it out, the rocks will shed again (in the bin, with the water that the pods are in) feeding the pods.

But you're going from 100% availability to (assumedly, if this actually works) 0% availability of detritus and they're somehow supposed to adapt to starvation and live through this???

[finneganswake]

Originally posted by gman0526
I know... skimmers, another "crazy fad" proven right by "crazy people" going against the establishment.

Ok, so you never slam ZeoVit users, huh?

[Highlander]

You guys are wasting bandwidth.

Why do you have to prove each other wrong?

Do your own thing, and enough with the Faux News mentality that you have to beat down anyone with a differing opinion.

I run a BB no adds, and my bud runs a DSB with Zeovit.
We agree to differ, and try to learn from each other, but we don't fight about it like kids.

Kumbiya

Sheesh!!

[MiddletonMark]

Finnegan, don't play the martyr when you're started multiple posts bashing a method you've never tried.

[Ereefic]

Originally posted by finneganswake
But you're going from 100% availability to (assumedly, if this actually works) 0% availability of detritus and they're somehow supposed to adapt to starvation and live through this???

Does rock ever really stop shedding? I don't think so.

When you put the rock back in the display, aren't the crabs, snails, fish, etc. going to give them food by pooping?

Why not take a few pieces of LR, cook them, and actually see what happens? Are you scared? This is the easiest way for you to understand what is happening when cooking rock.

[gman0526]

Originally posted by finneganswake
Ok, so you never slam ZeoVit users, huh?

I agree with Highlander, but I'll answer this last one, until the thread gets back on track.

I don't bash anybody. Like I have told you 3x's b4 why would you try and run around like a chicken w/o a head trying to discredit any advise given by people that just take reefing from a different angle? You advocate a controversial method yourself. Would you like for SeanT or anybody else to go around posting threads in every forum about you and ZEO just for the heck of it? I don't think so. Anyways you think and assume what you want, I'll do the same and at least we can agree on disagreeing.

George

[finneganswake]

Originally posted by MiddletonMark
Finnegan, don't play the martyr when you're started multiple posts bashing a method you've never tried.

Who's playing the martyr? I don't feel picked on.

Also, my concern is not so much the method as the means of selling it--I look at all the people who acted like sheep when everyone had the sandbed panic and now wonder why they have algae blooms when they were sold a "crash-free" system. The same thing is going on here--despite what some may say, there are dozens of threads where SeanT shows up to post his recipe and the flock nod their heads and the newbie rips their system apart because they think this is the only way to go. After all, if 20 people on RC say it's right (especially if they have a lot of posts, as we know this is the measure of true knowledge, not the quality of their tanks) then it must be so.

Should people who've never tried "reef-safe" ich treatments not be allowed to warn people away from them? That seems to be the logical extension of what you've said.

[Ereefic]

Originally posted by finneganswake
I look at all the people who acted like sheep when everyone had the sandbed panic and now wonder why they have algae blooms when they were sold a "crash-free" system.

Don't blame the method, blame the people for not understanding how to properly set-up and maintain the 'crash-free' system.

[finneganswake]

Originally posted by Ereefic
Don't blame the method, blame the people for not understanding how to properly set-up and maintain the 'crash-free' system.

The only crash-free system out there is the one employing good husbandry. Substrate has nothing to do with it whether set up correctly or not. Face it, the BB Brigade sold a bill of goods that didn't work out, and instead of admitting that their promises were empty, they decided that instead of blaming the sand, it was actually the rocks that were the problem.

Paraphrasing Bill Clinton--"It's the husbandry, stupid." BTW--this isn't directed towards you, so don't take it the wrong way.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ok, before we get too far off base here, allow me to summarize where I think the discussion stands:

1. Allowing the live rock to sit in the dark kills off algae and most other photosynthetic organisms, possibly including coralline. Some inverts do often survive. Photosynthetic corals of various sorts will likely die.

2. Bacteria can consume many of the nutrients from the dead algae and possibly other sources (such as organic materials bound to the rock).

3. Some folks have found that such rock seems to grow less algae in the tank than before such treatment.

4. The length of time that such a treatment lasts before "requiring" additional dark treatments is unknown.

5. There are other methods of removing nutrients and reducing algae, such as using GFO. Some people think the cooking is a better option, and some do not. The magnitude of the algae problem and the resources available to the aquarist may tip the balance one way or the other.

If I misstated anything, please feel free to correct it. IMO, most of the remainder of the discussion is hypothesis or details of the processes that may or may not be established.

[inwall75]

WOW!!!

OK, lets all be honest with ourselves here. Every choice we make regarding our reef tanks has consequences. Reef boards help people learn a lot of the pros/cons of every choice.

For instance, most NSW mixes that are low in P are high in N
Radium lamps give a lot of coloration but are much lower in PAR
6500K lamps give out tons of PAR but look very yellow to our eyes
Protein skimmers remove tons of waste but also removes some Ca and Magnesium and some trace elements
Aluminum P removers remove P but really tick off many softies...especially leathers. If left in too long, it will re-release the adsorbed P.
Iron P removers work much better at removing P and don't re-release the P, but introduce additional Iron into the tank and certain species of SPS don't respond well to the additional Iron. Additionally, going from a lot of P to hardly no P overnight can kill some corals and it can swing your pH a lot.
Some cheaper water moving equipment can move water well but introduce a lot of heat. Some more expensive water moving equipment is efficient with flow and heat but obviously it's expensive.
DSB's can give you a source of NNR and can house some interesting critters but set up improperly can cause problems.
BB tanks without enough flow will cause an increase in Nitrates and the work you need to do on a weekly basis. Some people don't like the looks.
Not curing rock long enough will come with some additional work in your tank when problem algae arrive. Curing rock too long will result in bleached coralline algae.
Refugiums will remove P and Ammonium but the same openness of the thallus that allows the algae to absorb these compounds will allow a lot of them to leak right back out. Sometimes with additional Gelbstoff and in some cases secondary metabolites that some corals don't get along with.
You often need Carbon to remove the above gelbstoff but some Carbons release P when put into the system and some carbon is not effective in saltwater.


It's all about choices. Get some background information on all of your choices. Learn the major pros/cons of what you want to do. Once you've decided, learn the nitty-gritty details of what you've chosen to maximize your reefing experience.

That's my 2 cents.

[finneganswake]

Randy--

For me, the crux of the matter is the idea that our rocks are "phosphate traps" that need to be liberated. Is there any evidence of this, other than the "Well, I tested my detritus and it had phosphates in it?"

[Weatherman]

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
Ok, before we get too far off base here, allow me to summarize where I think the discussion stands:

Speaking as someone who has gone through the rock cooking process, I’d like to add a couple additional points:

6) Rock cooking (extending the duration of the curing process) is typically used when setting up new tanks if the rock still has a lot of dead and decaying material on it. This reduces the magnitude of the initial algae bloom in a new tank. If the rock is fortunate enough to be very fresh, with abundant life, cooking the rock may be counterproductive.

7) Rock cooking (moving rock to separate containers for a few weeks to clean up) may be valuable when transitioning from a sand bed tank to a bare-bottom tank, since it allows the rock to reestablish equilibrium with a low-nutrient environment without shedding stuff all over the tank. Rock can be simply placed back into a tank after the sand is removed, but it tends to make the tank look very messy and unattractive for several months. If you are willing to put up with the mess, then cooking the rock is unnecessary.


I, personally, don’t see rock cooking as a solution to existing algae problems, and I do consider any measure which requires removing all rock from a tank to be “drastic�. If someone simply has a problem with excessive algae growth, the problem should be addressed through nutrient reduction or the addition of herbivores.

[Boat Racer]

.First you start this thread as if you havent spread your negative attitude around the site about this subject enough already and then you post the first post full of over exaggerated statements like

it's basically something started by the same people who used to answer all algae issues with "Have you removed your sandbed yet?"

Not every one or even close to every one or

This "go bare bottom" trend was sold as a cure-all that was going to forever remove the chances of a tank having algae problems.

No it makes for a cleaner system that requires less equipment ,maintinence and COULD HELP PREVENT ALGE or

When it turned out that the people who were blaming their sandbed for their problems still had algae issues after removing it,

Post all of those threads for me please.I'm sure the proper husbandry issue would apply here since you love to use that card so much or

They say that "uncooked" rocks leach phosphate (didn't we hear the same thing about sandbeds?) and through their "shedding" constantly dump detritus into the tank.

This is a fact ,you act as if this doesnt happen or

At the end of the process, you have what is, in my opinion, dead rock,

Again there you go with the dead rock crap again or

One thing that leads me to believe that this process doesn't work is that many people have algae problems after "cooking" their rocks

No not many ,maybe a few that have another major issue(obviously) or

it's not uncommon to hear that you need to do this every few months.

nobody is preaching this your way out there now or

It seems to me to be a very desperate maneuver and unlikely to offer any longterm results compared to a thorough look at what factors caused the problem to begin with.

You guys are always saying that we did something wrong to want to cook our rocks.Well I did nothing wrong.I dont have an alge bloom I do however have a tank that was set up with uncured rock.I cured them in my tank with a SSB.It was a big mistake because of the constant sheding I have since day one.I scrubed,swished and cleaned the rocks thoroughly at the fish store before I brought the rocks home.I did it all again before placing them into my new tank water and sand.I had to baste these rocks four times a day for the first two weeks and then reduced to three times and then two times and then once perday at the 5 week mark when I added a few fish and coral.The sheding never let up one bit.The sand became a mess due to this because not all of the detritus would filter off.
I decided to go bare bottom at this point and cook my rock to SeanT's recipe because I wanted to start out with as clean a rock as I could with the new BB.The rock has been building up this crud for what thousands of years so it definetly cant be argued that it will just come back as heavy as it is now after being put back into my system.I dont and would never condemn SSB's or DSB's.I just know that the cleaner you can get your rock the cleaner the system will be with BB or SSB or DSB.
I am not going to buy new base rock because some dude with an attitude thinks its stupid.I already have the rocks and if you think there is NO DIFFERENCE IN BASE ROCK TO PREMIUM GRADE LIVE ROCK THATS COOKED then you realy are closed minded and will never understand the real proccess and its effect on the rock.IT DOES NOT KILL THE ROCK.IT DOES NOT BECOME DEAD ROCK and THE ROCK AFTER COOKING IS STILL VERY HIGH QUALITY PREMIUM LIVE ROCK.It doesnt kill all the food sources for the pods in the first day.It does this throughout the procces slowly so there is detritus constantly for the little guys.And sence when does coraline need light to grow?My tank had a ton of coraline growing under the rocks as well where there was little to no light.When you dunk and swish you also change the water so the coraline gets what it needs to stay alive during the cooking at least some of it will as people who have cooked will tell you.
Here is a couple pics from today of my rock during its first weekly dunk and swish...Remeber that this rock has been scrubbed at the store then at my house and basred daily for over three months.The dirty water in the buckets should explain why I am doing this rock cooking.

Here is a link to my thread if ya want to read the whole story http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=759471

I just hate to keep reading all this negative crap about how you think cooking rock is dumb and a waste etc,etc.It seems that you just have nothing better to do than argue this.Why?Nobody is cramming anything down the newbies throat.I actualy think this could be the most helpfull thing a newbie could learn to eliminate a lot of the initial learning curve that most of us have gone through.You all know the curve I'm talking about.Its the part of this hobby where you kill some fish,corals,and spend needless money on things that dont work untill you learn what your doing.We all have been there........Heres my advice to the newbie.
dont cure new live rock in your tank especialy in a sand bottom

[finneganswake]

Well, boat racer, I tried to get through your thread but the bad grammar and spelling got the best of me, although your boldfaced type did get my attention.

I would like to address your last point--I cured my live rock in-tank. I added the sand after doing this--I'm still stunned that people haven't taken enough Reef 101 to know that you add the sand AFTER the rock has cured, so I don't know how to address the people who say "But the LR made such a mess of my sandbed." I ran my lights from day one. The only algae problem I've had was an extremely small clump of bubble algae that I pulled off of the rock--since adding an emerald crab, I haven't had any more issues with bubble algae.

[JerseyReef]

Boatracer Psst... I've always cured my live rock in my tank with a *gasp* DSB. I won't tell, if you don't...

[inwall75]

Hey everyone, let's all agree to discuss the subject without making fun of other people. There's no reason for anger or hurt feelings.

Originally posted by finneganswake
I would like to address your last point--I cured my live rock in-tank. I added the sand after doing this--I'm still stunned that people haven't taken enough Reef 101 to know that you add the sand AFTER the rock has cured, so I don't know how to address the people who say "But the LR made such a mess of my sandbed." I ran my lights from day one.

Finneganswake,

Years ago we were told to cure our LR on our sandbed to ensure that the worms and bacteria and such had sufficient food and therefore wouldn't starve. We were also told to add food directly to the sandbed during this period if there wasn't enough waste from the curing.

Obviously, people don't recommend that anymore. I just wanted you to know why it was done years ago. I know some people have read some ancient threads on Aqualink and alt.rec.aquaria and are likely still advising people to do this unfortunately. It's not the end of the world if you do it. I just wouldn't typically recommend it.

[Boat Racer]

Okay so now your the spelling and grammer police?You realy need to get over yoyrself
You know I could care less what you think about my grammer.And no its not written in stone that you should add the sand after curing the rock.Many have written books and posted here on this site different ways to add water,live rock and sand and in what order.It was here on this site where I have read many times that you can and should cure rocks in the tank if its a new setup.
I figured before I did it it would be a mess either way by detritus sheding or the sand settleing over the live rock if added later.
You crack me up

[Boat Racer]

Originally posted by JerseyReef
Boatracer Psst... I've always cured my live rock in my tank with a *gasp* DSB. I won't tell, if you don't...

Thats cool but I'm sure my rock and your rock had different levels of crud and junk dying off.I'm happy your tank was fine.

[inwall75]

BTW....for you old farts who remember Usenet, I got curious and just did a search. The Aquaria directory is still being used but it is now rec.aquaria.marine.

[finneganswake]

Originally posted by inwall75
Finneganswake,

Years ago we were told to cure our LR on our sandbed to ensure that the worms and bacteria and such had sufficient food and therefore wouldn't starve. We were also told to add food directly to the sandbed during this period if there wasn't enough waste from the curing.

Obviously, people don't recommend that anymore. I just wanted you to know why it was done years ago. I know some people have read some ancient threads on Aqualink and alt.rec.aquaria and are likely still advising people to do this unfortunately.

You know, I'm glad you posted this, as I think it serves as a good illustration of why I'm against this whole rock cooking thing.

I've heard many times that people used to be told to "feed" their sandbed. However, I have yet to come across this in any of the books that I've read, and I've read numerous books going back to the late 80s. Because of this, I've come to the conclusion that this was primarily a web-based fad.

My personal belief is that although the web is a great way to share information, it can also be dangerous as people tend to trust the people with the most posts, which rarely has a direct correlation with experience. I have no doubt that the people behind the sandbed "feeding" had thousands of posts to their names and were therefor seen as knowledgeable.

This is the main reason that I question the wisdom of rock cooking--if it's such a great idea, how come there are no published authors promoting it? When I asked this question regarding the BB trend, I was given the laughable answer that it was because these authors were invested in the sand market. Yeah, a lot of people make it rich trading in sand

I posted this thread in three expert columns not knowing that two of the experts had left RC, but the one expert left (Randy) doesn't seem to be in favor of this practice. Could there be a reason behind this?