Carbon bags with orange spots..

[Boomer]

Duluth is all hills and some of us have to live in the valley.

Yes, and as they say _______ rolls down hill. Maybe that is why I have never seen it

I'm on vacation for 8 weeks, we should do something or go someplace

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm on vacation for 8 weeks, we should do something or go someplace



Have fun!

After a quick presentation at work this morning, I'm off to our lake house.

[Habib]

Boom, I seem to recall you would have a surgical operation in your vacation?

[Boomer]

Yes Hab, had it on Friday and all went well. Recovering greatly and much faster than they expected It was a bilateral hernia. They fixed it with a new technic called Laparoscopy. Three tiny holes and not the usually big slices though the muscles which require lots of stitches. I had on just three 1 inch square band-aids and removed them the next day. I feel about 95 % normal just a little sore and no drugs but did use them the first two days

http://www.clevelandclinic.org/healt...asp?index=4356

Have fun at the lake Randy hope the weather holds up. It has rained here off on and on for a month and new record cold temps. Two weeks ago it snowed

[fahz]

Originally posted by Boomer
Yes Hab, had it on Friday and all went well. Recovering greatly and much faster than they expected It was a bilateral hernia. They fixed it with a new technic called Laparoscopy. Three tiny holes and not the usually big slices though the muscles which require lots of stitches. I had on just three 1 inch square band-aids and removed them the next day. I feel about 95 % normal just a little sore and no drugs but did use them the first two days

http://www.clevelandclinic.org/healt...asp?index=4356

Have fun at the lake Randy hope the weather holds up. It has rained here off on and on for a month and new record cold temps. Two weeks ago it snowed

You forgot to tell him about the part of only three days, this year so far, of temps above seventy degrees. I went outside to garden in the sun and it just rained on me twice in one hour.

Glad to hear your surgery went OK remember lift nothing heavier then a cocktail for three weeks.
Fahz

[Smo]

Allright, what's going on with this thread?
I have the same rust colored spots on my carbon bag after 2 weeks. Using cheapo carbon pre-filled bags.
Just wanna know if this is rust or not.
If it is rust from iron in the carbon, will it precipitate into the water column?
If it does, thus probably in minute quantities, would that be harmful to my livestock?

[Habib]

Yes Hab, had it on Friday and all went well. Recovering greatly and much faster than they expected

I'm very glad to hear that! Hope you will recover soon the last 5%.

[TippyToeX]

Boomer, I'm glad to hear you are recovering well.

Originally posted by Smo
Allright, what's going on with this thread?
I have the same rust colored spots on my carbon bag after 2 weeks. Using cheapo carbon pre-filled bags.
Just wanna know if this is rust or not.
If it is rust from iron in the carbon, will it precipitate into the water column?
If it does, thus probably in minute quantities, would that be harmful to my livestock?

Not to be excited that you are having the same problem, but I'm glad my tank is not a freak.

I've used Black Diamond, ESV, the little cheap Aqua Clear activated carbon and they all get the same orange stuff. I don't think it's the brand that causes this.

[Habib]

Amy,

That every try using another brand of bag? I assume that a bag is not supplied with the carbon and is the same brand of bag.

[TippyToeX]

Hey Habib,

I've used the Aqua Pure Media bags for the loose carbon. The AquaClear little ready made carbon packages come in their own little baggy. I'll find another brand at a LFS if I can this week to try it.

[Smo]

TippyToeX, I am using the Aqua Clear bags. They are small enough to use in my HOB filter that I have modified for carbon or poly filter use only.
Just curious still as to what these rust colored spots are.
Thanks

[TippyToeX]

Smo, try some different carbon brands and baggies. See if that helps you. So far it hasn't made a difference for me. You can find little baggies that will fit into your HOB filter. Just don't fill the bag too much and it should be fine. It's cheaper too if you use carbon often.

Originally posted by Smo
Just curious still as to what these rust colored spots are.

Me too! No way to test for rust. No way to send it to someone to have it tested because they have no way of knowing what they are looking for. So really, there doesn't seem much to do right now to find out what this is.

[Hobster]

Me too! No way to test for rust. No way to send it to someone to have it tested because they have no way of knowing what they are looking for. So really, there doesn't seem much to do right now to find out what this is. [/B][/QUOTE]

But think about what a great thread it has been!

My remaining question is: if it is rust bacteria or whatever is that really a "bad" thing?? Will it do any harm?

[Boomer]

No way to test for rust. No way to send it to someone to have it tested because they have no way of knowing what they are looking for

Any U lab can find out what it is. Even a piece of the bag with some red stuff on it, under a lab microscope, will tell if it is alive or just crystals of iron precip. An iron test kit would show this. I don't have one anymore, gave it to Randy. You woud need one that tests for both Fe ++ and Fe+++. Or, one or the other and total iron.

http://www.aquaspex.com.au/products/microtest/iron.html

As I mentioned earlier, never in 30 years and few hundred bags of GAC and many different types of bags have I seen this. However, I have seen it in sludge and old water lines. Looks just like your stuff. But I don't have clue why you or others are getting it. It has to be iron based, I would bet on it.

Some chemistry on iron
Ferrous - ferric iron

Mine water with iron contamination may take on more than one chemical form. As it turns out, this can be a significant property, especially when we devise treatment strategies to remove the iron.

The iron will be in one of two oxidation states: ferrous having a +2 charge, or ferric having a +3 charge. Ferrous iron is soluble in water at any pH. If you see water containing only ferrous iron, the iron will be totally dissolved and the water will appear as crystal clear, no mater what pH it has. The situation is different with ferric iron. At a pH less of than about 3.5 ferric iron is soluble. But if the pH is higher than 3.5 the ferric iron will become insoluble and precipitate (form a solid) as an orange/yellow compound called yellowboy. This causes the familiar orange coatings on stream bottoms that tends to smother aquatic life. So, to put it in a nutshell, ferric iron will precipitate; ferrous iron will not.

Now to continue with another part of the story. Mine water may also have high levels of acidity, a situation that degrades the water quality. The most common property we associate with this is a low pH, less than 5 or thereabouts. To treat such water, we want to neutralize the acidity by adding alkalinity. Adding alkalinity will raise the pH. For passive treatment systems, limestone is the widely preferred neutralizing agent. Having mine water come in contact with limestone dissolves it, tending to neutralize it. As it does, the pH becomes higher. Okay, here's where the problem comes in. If this water also has iron in it, particularly ferric iron, as the pH rises above 3.5, the ferric iron will precipitate as yellowboy. In doing so, the yellowboy can deposit on the limestone forming a layer of yellowboy that protects the limestone from further dissolution. In other words, the limestone is rendered ineffective in further neutralization action because of the coating, also known as armoring. Armoring, in fact, is a failure mode of some treatment systems.

Let's go to yet another part of the story: to when the iron pollution is initially formed by pyrite weathering. When pyrite initially reacts with oxygen and water, one product is ferrous iron. (Equation 1 below) For ferrous to become ferric, more oxygen is needed. (Equation 2 below) However, underground the amount of oxygen can be very limited, and that conversion may not happen to any significant extent in the oxygen limited environment. [Sometimes certain bacteria can accelerate the ferrous to ferric reaction, however.] Often when mine pollution breaks out at the surface, very little of the iron is in the ferric form because of a lack of oxygen underground. This, however, can change quickly once the mine water is exposed to the atmosphere where plenty of oxygen is available. One treatment strategy for mine water having high acidity and virtually all the iron in the ferrous state is to keep oxygen from getting to it while it is passed through a channel of limestone rock. An anoxic limestone drain protects the water from oxygen while alkalinity is being added. If, on the other hand, significant amounts of iron are in the ferric state or adequate oxygen is present, a different strategy can be employed: removing the oxygen before adding limestone alkalinity. This is the case with a SAPS (Successive Alkalinity Producing System).

The three chemical reactions salient to this discussion are

4FeS2(s) + 14O2(g) + 4H2O(l) ---> 4Fe2+(aq) + 8SO42-(aq) + 8H+(aq) (1)

4Fe2+(aq) + O2(g) + 4H+(aq) ---> 4Fe3+(aq) + 2H2O(l) (2)

4Fe3+(aq) + 12 H2O(l) ---> 4Fe(OH)3(s) + 12H+(aq) (3)

Equation 1 describes the initial reaction of pyrite with water and oxygen to form ferrous ions. Equation 2 describes the reaction in which ferrous iron is converted to ferric iron. Equation 3 describes the actual hydrolysis and precipitation of ferric hydroxide (yellowboy).

[TippyToeX]

Excellent. I figured if you guys thought it was worth sending to a U to be diagnosed you would have said so long ago. I'll give a call to the Chem department at UNLV tomorrow to see what they might be able to do for me.

I appreciate the above info Boomer. I had to look up quite a few words but I have a better understanding now.

FWIW, IPIYS

[bertoni]

Okay, I'm going to try to understand those equations. Warning: programmer attempting chemistry. World, be warned!

The first equation describes the S part of FeS[sub]2[/sub] being oxidized, along with some hydrolysis? Looks to produce an acid result? Isn't that sulfuric acid there on the right-hand side?

In equation 2, the iron is donating an electron, and we're creating water by reducing H+, or is that not reduction? This is removing H+ from the solution, should increase the pH.

Equation 3 is all hydrolysis, and again produces a lot of free H+...

Iron seems to be quite willing to donate electrons.

[TippyToeX]

I should note that I did not even make an attempt to understand those equations. Way out of my league. I need "chem for friggin' idiots".

On a odd note, do an image search for ferric hydroxide and a jar of PhosBan comes up. I see now why Habib and Randy mentioned PO4 binders when they saw my rusty stuff.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If it is rust from iron in the carbon, will it precipitate into the water column?
If it does, thus probably in minute quantities, would that be harmful to my livestock?

I do not think it is harmful, regardless of the options that we have considered that it might be (abiotic iron oxide, iron compounds in bacteria, or other organic or inorganic pigments in bacteria).

Glad to hear you're well, Boomer!

[melev]

Um.....

Tagging along!

[TippyToeX]

Isn't it impressive Marc?

[Smo]

I found a product at the grocery store called Carbona Rust Remover. Supposedly it's main ingredient is Carbon Tetrachloride.
Will I be able to "wash" the rust colored baggie in this solution and see if the color dissolves?

All I really want to know at this point is: Do I/we have rust somewhere in our reef systems?

[melev]

Amy, I'm starting to think it is some foreign metal within the carbon itself. The reason I state this is because of all the RO/DI units that have been shipped across the U.S. for the past 2.5 years, three or four units had those strange orange spots appear on the carbon cartridges, but not in the first (sediment) filter. Sending them new carbons resolved the problem, but I never did know why this happened to those units.

However, if a foreign metal were in accidentally mixed into the carbon, once water was added those spots would appear. While dry, they looked just like any other cartridge. Your carbon seems fine, as does the bag, but once put in the tank (granted it is saltwater now), you're seeing orange patches.

Randy, any thoughts?

[Boomer]

But others are getting it Mel and with high grade GAC. I'll bet in 30 years Iv'e used 2 dozen types of carbon and bags and have never seen it. I would more apt to belive that some additive is doing it

[TippyToeX]

Hmm.. I drip kalk 24/7 and do water changes weekly (change my carbon about ever week to 10 days) with Instant Ocean.

Boomer, would there be something in my water worth testing for? Iron? UNLV chem department was very kind to me and said they would look at what ever I need them to. I could bring a sample of tank water too I guess. I just don't know what I could have them test for.

Marc good points. I bet I could bag the some carbon for a friend in the area the same as I bag my own. Theirs would be fine, in 3 days my would orange over. I should ask my fellow club members if they have ever seen this. Maybe out nasty Lake Mead water has something to it.

[Smo]

I don't drip kalk (that's ruled out of the eqation now), do 10% weekly water changes with Instant Ocean. In between water changes I was dosing B-Ionic 2 part buffer, but just switched to 2 little fishes 2 part. The B-Ionic came with the tank and had a manufacture date of 8/2003. I figured this may be old, so I tossed it.
Change carbon bag every 10 - 14 days. It's the Aqua Clear pre-filled bags.
One more thing to add: I had been fighting a cyano bacteria problem but that is almost vanished. No chemicals or anti-biotic were added to eliminate this problem. Just did as told for cyano: Increased water changes, run carbon, increase water flow, drain frozen foods before feeding, harvest any cyano you see by suction method, and have lots of patience. The cyano is a red-purple color, much different from the rust colored spots on our bags.