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#76
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I use Tropic Marin and like it. The Mg and Ca is a little low. I add Mg to my tank and my Calcium Reactor takes care of my Ca Levels.
Tropic Marin will be releasing a new salt called Tropic Marin Pro Reef very soon. They claim to have the right amount of Mg and Ca, which their current salt is on the low side. |
#77
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should I use Tropic Marin or Crystal Sea Marinemix?
Of those, I'd use Tropic Marin.
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Randy Holmes-Farley |
#78
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I still swear by Mortons's iodized, you know, "When it rains it pours". Strangely it has been omitted from most of these studies.
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"Leading the information hungry reefer down the road to starvation" Tom |
#79
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im going to be keeping an eye on this post
Exactly what is EDTA
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forever a noob |
#80
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EDTA is an organic chemical that can grab and hold many metals. The metal/EDTA combo can be readily soluble when the metal itself is not, and it usually has reduced bioavailability.
EDTA stands for ethylenediamine tetraacetic acid. This web site gives more info: http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/edta/edtah.htm This is EDTA:
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Randy Holmes-Farley |
#81
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Hey guys,
dropping in quite late, and I just had a quick look on your writings up to now. So, sorry if I'm repeating some topics you've already closed up with. Here're my remarks on your discussion btw Tim's recent article: EDTA: well, since several years I'm looking for an answer on the question whether it's available (or better: the EDTA ligands are bioavailable) in seawater or not. On the one hand I can hardly believe that significant amounts of EDTA complexes will dissociate in seawater in a timely fashion, means that e.g. skimming would remove the non-dissociated EDTA complexes off the water right until significant amounts of the ligands are released to the water. On the other hand EDTA is used to complex trace metal ions in f/2 enriched seawater medium and couple of other algal culture media. Thus, for these guys EDTA chelated metal ions seem to be bioavailable. Focussing on corals they may or may not be able to break off the EDTA-ligand complexes and utilize the released metals. I mean, it turned out in the last years that most parts of specific trace metals are associated with organic sequester molecules in oceanic seawater, which in their chemical structur are quite similar to EDTA (just by their chemical properties and chemical complexicity). So I could imagine that both mico- and macroalgae, and corals are able to use EDTA complexes. But actually it's just speculation! 2) NSW controls in Tim's article: He's right that it is crucial along with such analytical measurments on artificial seawater mixes to test for the same parameters in natural seawater probes. However, if he's pointing towards the mentioned measurements made by Bingman and other guys and criticises these guys to having made great mistakes in the experimental setup and planning, he should seriously take into consideration that a) his NSW probe has been taken in an area of intense upwelling with high primary production rates and potential anthropogenic pollution, b) things may be completely different in coral reef waters, c) even inshore, near-shore, and off-shore reefs could greaty differ along with seasonal impact. So what should have been done is to compare different coral reef waters and firstly check these samples whether they differ in their trace element composition. I mean, I don't know how this would be possible concerning logistics and stuff, but actually that's his problem as he's responsible for the experimental set up. 3) Concerning the bioassay studies R. Shimek as conducted on pluteus larvea I need to go back to Ron's publications but as I remember mortality rates were lowest in the BioSea Marine Mix (BSMM) and Crystal Seas Marine Mix Bioassay (CSMMB), wasn't it? I'm quite keen for the next issue where Tim's discussing on his bioassays. I mean, these two salt mixes had the highest concentration of trace metals within the seasalt mixes tested, right? But both had the lowest trace metal concentration in Ron Shimek's trace element measurements, what has been discussed to be a possible reason to explain the low mortality rates in the bioassays on the pluteus larvae. |
#82
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I think that rather than trying to compare NSW on coral reefs to ASW, Tim was comparing NSW that is available to hobbyists in the US to ASW, and to copare the exact types of things that Ron also compared in his larvae tests.
But both had the lowest trace metal concentration in Ron Shimek's trace element measurements No, Ron didn't meaure them, IIRC. He just used a manufacturer statement about what was present.
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Randy Holmes-Farley |
#83
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Quote:
the latter is even more interesting, isn't it ? Sorry, I should have read Ron's articles first... Didn't think of people carrying seawater canisters right across the beach |
#84
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anyone think this test could be a stab back at aquacraft and dr.ron? I am not into dr. ron or defending him at all. seems as this hobby is a dramatic one though. not sure I can believe someone whos product was bashed then does there own study and bam they have the best product. it seems those of us without the funds to do our own testing are stuck with our heads spinning. I have used most of the products listed in this study and have really only had problems with one. sorry crystal sea but I lost everything when I switched to your salt now I don't use it and everything is fine.
Does anyone really know what is going on? Randy I do like your seemingly unbiased oppinions.
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This is not a hobby, it's a sickness |
#85
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anyone think this test could be a stab back at aquacraft and dr.ron?
That is the stated reason that it was run. anyone think this test could be a stab back at aquacraft and dr.ron? I am not into dr. ron or defending him at all. seems as this hobby is a dramatic one though. not sure I can believe someone whos product was bashed then does there own study and bam they have the best product. They have two in the full study. One is among the best and one is among the worst. You might check this thread where the author answers questions about it: http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=445079
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Randy Holmes-Farley |
#86
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One is among the best and one is among the worst.
A cynic might say that perhaps Marineland would like to continue only with one brand and the results would fit in that plan. I'm not saying that is the case and I don't have any information about it.
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"I'm a big dumb stupid head." - Beerbutt Proud owner of the very rare YET (Yellow Elephantis Tang) from the Lord Bibah Islands. "LOL, well I have no brain apparently. " - dc (Debi) |
#87
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OK, yes, one can imagine all sorts of motivations for most any study by anyone.
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Randy Holmes-Farley |
#88
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RANDY thank you for the link gotta love eric B. nothing like someone saying it as the see it not caring about the $
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This is not a hobby, it's a sickness |
#89
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You're welcome.
Happy Reefing.
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Randy Holmes-Farley |
#90
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Quote:
In that study Dr. Tim proved once and for all that those "hobby authors" who claim otherwise are uninformed. His study showed that corals did poorly in the Jaubert system and that it was obviously inferior to his company's filtration products. His study showed that the BioWheel filtered tank and the Wet/Dry Trickle Filtered tank were equal to the Berlin Method tank and superior to the Jaubert plenum method tank. So that should put an end to all those false claims that BioWheels and Trickle Filters are somehow less efficient in processing nitrate than the so-called natural tanks that rely on lots of live rock, strong protein skimmers and (optionally) deep sand beds. His study proved that it just isn't so. So there! Oh, BTW, ALL of his tanks were set up with CRUSHED CORAL substrates! That's right. State-of-the-art crushed coral was used to construct the Jaubert plenum system and the deep sand bed in the Berlin Method tank. I'm not sure what Dr. Jaubert would have to say about that but that's the way Dr. Tim set them up. I know what some of the proponents of sand bed filtration would say but what do they know. And all four tanks had state-of-the-art Knopp protein skimmers. Wonder why he didn't use SeaClone? I guess that would have been too obvious.
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Ninong |
#91
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Short of believing that someone fabricated the actual data, I'd always prefer to focus on the study and what might or might not have been wrong with it, than try to judge a study based on who did it.
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Randy Holmes-Farley |
#92
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Quote:
Knowing who did the study and how they did it might shed light on their possible motivation. What other explanation is there for setting up a Jaubert plenum using crushed coral? Dr. Jaubert specifically explains exactly how to properly set up his system and it doesn't involve crushed coral. I have never heard Rob Toonen, Eric Borneman, Ron Shimek, or any of the other people who advocate deep sand beds recommend that they be constructed using crushed coral. In fact, they all warn that crushed coral would be the worst possible substrate to use because of it's ability to trap detritus, thus producing nitrates. In any case, here is another study that we can examine to see if the methods were scientifically sound and truly represented the best practice for each of the systems that were studied. It is just a coincidence that the author of this study is the same as the author of the new salt mix study. And it is just a coincidence that his company manufactures filtration products and artifical salt mixes.
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Ninong |
#93
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I thought we were talking about motivation here?
I'm not sure that I understand. Tim made it very clear that the reason for running the study was that he believed that Ron's study is misleading about his product relative to others. He spent quite a bit of time at MACNA addressing that very issue, and it will be in the upcoming articles. So the motivation is obvious, isn't it?
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Randy Holmes-Farley |
#94
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Randy,
Sorry, I was referring to motivation for the filtration study in SeaScope that I linked. I really wasn't thinking about the motivation for Tim's new salt mix study, which was stated up front by him. The stated purpose of the filtration study was to disprove claims made by Paletta, Delbeek, Sprung and others that certain filtration products (that happen to be manufactured by Marineland) were somehow less efficient at processing nitrates than so-called "natural methods."
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Ninong |
#95
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OK, I have read all of the articles referred to in this thread and since I don't have the background of most of the folks posting most of it is way over my head. I am very glad to see such in-depth research being done and applaud everyone's dilegence and effots. Being a layman and new to SW hobby my bottom line question is: based on all of the research if I am starting a new tank what is the best water for the tank?
a) NSW collected in the Gulf (I live in Clearwater, FL) b) Catalina water from PetCo c) a brand of synthetic salt (which brand) I hope I am not butting in but for me as the end user that is my real question. Thanks Doug
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Nano Cube DX -False Perc -4 Turbos & Cerith -3 Bumble Bee -2 Nassarius -4 Scarlet Hermits -5 Red-legs -1 Emerald crab -1 Serpent Star |
#96
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I can't tell you what is best, but I choose to use Instant Ocean.
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Randy Holmes-Farley |
#97
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One fact has become clear in my mind: the more I read on this topic, the less I know. Or think I know. Or something. I'm not sure any more.
I do have one comment. Having watched a professor intentionally leaving false statements in a refereed paper (that made it through), I always consider the author's interests very carefully when reading papers like this one. I might be a bit unfair here, but I wouldn't at all be surprised if Ninong has a point and there's false data, etc, in the paper. I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't any outright falsification, either, though. I think it pays to be very cynical when reading research papers from parties with financial interest in the outcome. I don't think I'm alone, either. There was a case where a research (doctor, psychologist?) took money from a diaper company, after talking about the benefits of keeping kids in diapers longer. He took some flack that made it to the public media. It must have been a tough choice, I admit, though. Maybe I'm just too cynical in my old age...
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Jonathan Bertoni |
#98
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Quote:
I will leave the ethical questions to those more qualified to judge such things but I am old enough to remember well all the "scientific" studies published by the M.D.'s and Ph.D.'s employed by the tobacco companies that "proved" that smoking was not a health hazard.
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Ninong |
#99
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Quote:
BTW, the proper way to implement the Jaubert plenum system is over a deep bed of CRUSHED CORAL. It somehow got bastardized during it translation to the US hobby. Greg |
#100
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Ninong is not off topic here at all.Tim Hovanec of marineland presented date on ansalysis of salt mixes.The company that Tim works for makes Instant Ocean sea salt.And nothing Ninong has posted here border on a personal attack on Tim Hovanec.
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RGibson |
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