Interceptor question

[Bomber]

This is where having access to a chemist comes in handy. Saves me time and leg work, and puts it on you.
So sharpen your pencil oh wise one.

People are using Inteceptor (Milbemycin oxime) to treat things in their tank or as a dip. I'm not clear on that one.
Anywho, Milbemycin oxime is a mixture of the macrolides milbemycin A3 oxime and milbemycin A4 oxime and it interacts with the GABA receptors of the nervous system like other macrolides leading to paralysis. Milbemycin acts by disrupting nerve transmission within the parasite leading to death of the parasite.

Now the tricky part. Most of these types of drugs are made to work within the range of animal body temps, have a short life (want to kill the bug without killing the animal, cleared within 120 hours), but break down to things you wouldn't want to have in a aquarium. Hint: think salt water and the human body.

What can you find out about this stuff?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I see what I can find out tomorrow.

[Bomber]

[Bomber]

On second thought (and yes it was painful) see if you can find out what the drug was originally designed for - humans, animals, etc. Or even if it was designed or just adapted. That would at least give a hint as far a temp requirements if any. Ingested or topical.

I have a feeling we can come up with a better drug than this one.

[grim]

My fiancee works for an animal hospital.. I'm sure she has got some pharmeceutical contacts. Actually, I was talking to the Novartis rep at her hospital the other day. I'll see what I can find..

jb

[SeanT]

Hey Bomber,
Come up with one quickly please.

[Bomber]

I'm sort of twiddling my thumbs until tomorrow and thinking out loud.

You know this shouldn't be that hard. Just find one of the organophosphate pesticides that doesn't harm adult corals. Like maybe chlorpyrifos and fluoranthene.

[otolith]

Wonder how much the Interceptor (or any other medicine for that matter) will be broken down/metabolized in the aquarium considering it doesn't have a liver or kidneys.

[Bomber]

Originally posted by otolith
Wonder how much the Interceptor (or any other medicine for that matter) will be broken down/metabolized in the aquarium considering it doesn't have a liver or kidneys.

but break down to things you wouldn't want to have in a aquarium

[invincible569]

Will be waiting for an answer.

[otolith]

Originally posted by Bomber

Yeah, I'm thinking outloud as well. You should see the smoke in my basement. haha

[Dog boy Dave]

Just tagging. Have seen small dots on one of my corals. No sign of stress but I havent always practiced safe trading in the past. Not ready to drop heart worm pills in my tank just yet though.
DT

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There are loads of references on it.

Here are a couple for use in aquaria:

Safety of milbemycin as an oral or bath treatment for the tropical freshwater angelfish Pterophyllum scalare. Killino T J; Bodri M S Department of Small Animal Science and Conservation, Delaware Valley College, Doylestown, Pennsylvania 18901, USA Journal of zoo and wildlife medicine : official publication of the American Association of Zoo Veterinarians (1997 Mar), 28(1), 94-6.

Abstract

Technical grade milbemycin (A3-A4 oxime) was formulated in propylene glycol to produce a stock concentration of 5.0 mg/ml. Groups of six pond-reared freshwater angelfish (Pterophyllum scalare) randomly housed in 32-L aquaria were exposed to milbemycin by prolonged bath at 63, 125, and 188 PPB or by its incorporation into their gelatinized food at 2.5 mg or 5.0 mg/100 g food, which they were fed ad lib. for 1 day. Control fish were exposed to a prolonged bath (24 hr without charcoal filtration) of 0.8 ml propylene glycol/32 L water, were given gelatinized food incorporating 1 ml propylene glycol/100 g food ad lib. for 1 day, or were untreated (no propylene glycol exposure). All fish treated at 188 PPB and the smallest individuals from the 63- and 125-PPB aquaria died. Other fish at 125 PPB exhibited transient lethargy and increased opercular movement but recovered within 24 hr. No deleterious effects were noted in the fish given milbemycin orally. Pretreatment parasitic nematode infection rate, evaluated by gut dissection of 16 randomly selected fish, was 68.75%. Identification of nematodes to species was not performed. No significant differences in infection rates between treated and untreated groups were detected.



Control of parasitic infestations in farmed and wild fish. Alexandersen, Svein; Evensen, Oystein; Syvertsen, Christian; Martinsen, Bernt. (Alpharma A/S, Norway; Jensen Lone, Pia). PCT Int. Appl. (1999), 37 pp.

Abstract

A method to control parasitic infestations, including infestations with sea lice and isopod species, in farmed fish is given. Antiparasitic substances are formulated as an injectable compn., optionally in a fish vaccine. A compn. for therapeutic and prophylactic control of parasites in farmed and wild fish, comprising hexaflumuron or other chitin synthesis inhibitors as the active substance, is also described. Hexaflumuron can be administered as a bath treatment, orally through the feed, or as injection. The compn. has a therapeutic effect against parasites that are already present on the fish and confers protection against new parasitic infestation for an extended period of time after treatment.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Another related one:

Preparation of avermectins and milbemycins to treat parasitic infestations in fish. Milner, Cyril Keith. (Beecham Group PLC, UK). PCT Int. Appl. (1992), 21 pp.

Abstract

The title compds. I [R1 = H, optionally protected OH; R2 = alkoxy, optionally protected OH, oxo, optionally O-substituted oximino; R3 = R1, 4'-(a-L-oleandrosyl)-a-L-oleandrosyloxy or a-L-oleandrosyloxy with the terminal OH group optionally protected; R4-R7 = H, org. radical; R8 = optionally substituted amino, imino, optionally N-substituted hydrazone or semicarbazone] are prepd. as endo- and ectoparasiticides for fish. I are usable as food additives, sprays, or dips, esp. for the treatment of infestations with parasitic copepods or sea-lice in salmonids. To a soln. of 23-oxo-25(S)-tert-butylmilbemycin X and NaOAc in MeOH was added O-tert-butylhydroxylamine-HCl to give a mixt. of 23(Z)- and 23(E)-tert-butyloxyimino-25(S)-tert-butylmilbemycin X (II). II added to sea water in a tank at 0.1 ppm totally controlled sea lice (Lepeophtheirus salmonis) on salmon (Salmo salar).

[Bomber]

Randy see if you can find what it was originally designed for.

[seven ephors]

There is no doubt that the medicine was used to treat parasites in vertibrates like fish and dog, but info. on what effect does it has on scler. and invert. is not readily available. For those of us that need to do these treatments, we usually have clams, snails, starfish, in addition to the hosts, Acropora.

But I guess drug companies and researchers usually don't care about inverts....

[gpajon]

Originally posted by seven ephors

But I guess drug companies and researchers usually don't care about inverts.... [/B]

I wouldn't go as far as to say they don't care for them it is just not the target of their research.
Unfortunately this product was not made for reef aquariums, and finding a more target specific medication is difficult if not impossible. When a farm is threatened to loose thousands of dollars due to disease or parasites it is not going to be the shrimp and starfish in our tanks they will be worried about. Just take the treatments for Ich, I don't think coral was considered when copper was found to be a treatment that could prevent a farmer from loosing thousands of dollars.

Gon

[G-money]

Bomber/Randy,

I can't understand what the real concern is? Jerel, you're speaking in those dang riddles again!

but break down to things you wouldn't want to have in a aquarium. Hint: think salt water and the human body.

What does that mean? Is your concern getting this stuff into our bodies??? You can pass the dunce hat if you wish...

Are we to assume these breakdown products (and I really haven't the foggiest what they even are) cannot be dealth with via skimmer or carbon? That would make them fairly unusual entities, no? Regardless, are we to think these degradation products are going to have an appreciable life in the tank? Is the worry that problems will jump "out of nowhere" 6 months down the road? I'm skeptical. What about water changes? Lots of 'em.

I agree, I wouldn't want to treat my tank more than once (3 times), which I have done with no apparent ill-effects. But what is the harm in treating corals with this med in a Q tank type of environment?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy see if you can find what it was originally designed for.

The oldest thing in my searches tht hits with the CAS number 51570-36-6 (names Milbemycin (9CI) and Antibiotic B 41) is a 1973 patent:

Acaricidal and insecticidal antibiotic mixture B-41. Aoki, Atsushi; Fukuda, Rikiya; Nakayabu, Toshio; Ishibashi, Keijiro; Takeichi, Chiyoko; Ishida, Mitsuo. (Sankyo Co., Ltd.). Ger. Offen. (1973), 52 pp.

Abstract

The antibiotic B-41 consisting of the components A1 (I, R-R2 = Me), A2 (structure unknown), A3 (II, R = H, R1 = R2 = Me), A4 (II, R = H, R1 = Me, R2 = Et), B1 (structure unknown), B2 (II, R-R2 = Me), B3 (II, R= R1 = Me, R2 = Et), and C1 and C2 (II, R = H, R1 = 2-pyrrolylcarbonyloxymethyl, R2 = Me and Et, resp.), was manufd. by aerobic fermn. of a common medium by Streptomyces strain B-41-146 120 hr at 28°. The components were sepd. by chromatog. B-41 had acaricidal and insecticidal activity against pests on plants.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I can't understand what the real concern is?

I don't have one. Then again, I'm not using it.

Seriously, I expect the concern is toxicity, either from the compound itself, or its degradation products.

[chewie]

Jerel,

Are you trying to tell us to run our tanks at 98.6 during treatment?

I'll have me one of the dunce caps too

[SeanT]

It would be awesome if it were possible to treat all my corals in a Q tank.
Sadly not only isn't it realistically feasible, but how do we know that these bugs don't exist on the rockwork itself?
Sadly, treating the whole tank is the only option in many cases.
I have access to Interceptor but have been waiting, waiting, and waiting for the results of others, en masse, before I make any moves.
When I saw this thread and Bomber's comments, specifically this one,

Originally posted by Bomber
...break down to things you wouldn't want to have in a aquarium.

it makes me hesitate.
Like everyone else here I have spent a lot of time, effort, energy, love, devotion and yes, money on my system.
If using this drug is like infecting your tank with Cancer to get rid of HIV I am not up to it.

I am hoping that the outcome of this discusion is to either:
A. Give evidence that Interceptor is safe to use.
B. Provide a safer alternative.

Understanding that many inverts are sacrificed in this treatment, my, albeit calloused, outlook is that hermits, 'pods, and shrimp can be replaced a lot more easily, readily, quickly and cheaply than the vast number of Acopora's I own.

I am still wary as to what effect Interceptor has on Clams.

[wasp9166]

are you talking about the stuff you give dogs for heartworm? that interceptor?

[invincible569]

Originally posted by wasp9166
are you talking about the stuff you give dogs for heartworm? that interceptor?

Yes. Dustin tested it in aquariums to treat the dreaded red bugs on SPS corals and has worked. Now we are trying to see if it will treat anything else or what it does since I had a weird coincedence when using the the treatment as it killed off the Lymphosystis off of my Copperband Butterfly within a day.

[EricHugo]

Hi Randy, Bomber, et al.

I was trying to look up anti-crustacean/anti-arthropod drugs, and thought about Quell and other lice treatments, as well as some of the antural pesticides like Boric acid that dehydrate skeletons. I was thinking this might act as a sediment stress in addition to potential toxicities. Its going to be hard to find something, I think, that will kill a complex invert like an amphipod compared to the sensitive, two cell-layer Acroporids. Also, I am looking into alternative hosts, life cycle (direct development? larval stage? intemediate host?) and reservoirs for these guys.

I did find that under the microscope high pH solutions did squat, freshwater did squat, and strong blasting with a pipet did squat. Lugol's dips did squat. Direct application of Lugol's for a couple minutes got rid of all visible bugs and killed them. Problem is, the coral bleached more than it already was. So, dosage variations? I don't know.

Haven't tried Interceptor yet, but may play with it a bit.