dosing vodka to bring down N and P

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks very much for the update!

Because of the corals issues, perhaps folks trying it should start with far less alcohol, like 10-100 times less, and slowly raise it as long as corals are still OK and nitrate is not going away adequately (although I prefer macroalgae growth myself).

[571958]

I would like to add on to the fact that the basic theory between ZEOVIT and Vodka is very much similar. -> it is to reduce the nutrient level in a closed system thru Bacteria-plankton boom.
Infact the Zeolite that comes with Zeovit system is coat with a layer of ehanol/carbon similar susbtance. The only differences is that Zeovit comes with Bacteria culture in a bottle to kick-start. Beside, people who use this method hae to dose Amino Acids, Minerals & Vitamins, as all these will be depleted to extremely low level, as utilised by the Bacteria Boom. The general concept is to create a nutrient free environment similar to Fiji.

Max

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I still wonder in this vodka method, where the nutrients and/or bacteria finally end up. Skimmed out, hopefully, or the effects may be only temporary.

[571958]

Hi Randy,

the german reefers recommended cutting off skimmer & Ozone. Well I'm not taking any chances, I tune down ozone to miimum and skimmer is still runned full time. Reefers that utilise this method ona fully load tank(high fisg load) reported a significant increase in the skimmer performance-> or shall I say that increase in bacteria being taken out due to large bacteria with excess of DOCs/nutrient in system. As for my case, I can't tell a big differences since I don't feed my fishes and clams. SPS feeding is kept ot minimum. Time will tell, but 1 thing for sure, nutrient is depleted real fast using vodka. The mushroom, xenia & algae in the tank is a witness. I'll update again in another 2 weeks and I'm currently trying to calculate wha'ts the best vodka dosage with references to Nitrate & PO4 concentration in the system.

What I'm surprise with is the fact that all my clams survived the vodka trial. Infact they show tremendous growth in shell. My Giant Squamosa(11") & Maxima(9.5") show nearly 1cm of shell growth in width witin 2 weeks + and mantle coloration has been intense. I wonder if the clams benefit from the Bacteria-Plankton boom as a food source?

BTW, I was wondering is someone can help to ask Dr Ron for some opinions?

Thxz a Million
Max

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
I still wonder in this vodka method, where the nutrients and/or bacteria finally end up. Skimmed out, hopefully, or the effects may be only temporary.

[movingshadow]

actually the german experiments that came to my attention (including the original mrutzek/kokott test) all employed the use of a skimmer while dosing vodka to the tank....

Interesting idea, that the bacterial bloom could serve as a food source for the clams... sounds plausible, though we should ask the experts

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I wonder if the clams benefit from the Bacteria-Plankton boom as a food source?

Could be. It also could be that they benefit from reduced phosphate, which can inhibit calcification, and from reduced nitrate, which can overdrive zoox.

[Mark]

I added 140 ml of vodka to a 180 gallon system. I had a bacterial bloom for a week. The tank remained very cloudy during this bloom. I was a bit concerned, but the corals including all the sps and clams were acting completely normal. The skimmer has been skimming a lot more than normal. I found myself having to empty a very large collection cup twice a day! On the 6th day, I was getting a little tired of the cloudiness and the crazy skimming, so I made some fresh salt water and left it to mix over night. I came home from work the 7th day to do the water change, but to my surprise the tank was clear. And I mean very clear. Looking down the length of the tank from the side, I was amazed at the water clarity. I couldn't have gotten this clarity with carbon. The skimmer also slowed down the following days. It's been 3 weeks since, and my skimmer removes very little at the moment. I'm not sure what the bacterial bloom did to assist the skimmer, but apparently there's not much in the water to skim out for now.

I'm not advocating vodka or telling anyone to try it. I'm just sharing my personal experience. I was quite impressed. I don't think it would be wise to dose vodka constantly, but perhaps it is usefull as an annual "spring cleaning".

If you do try it, make sure you keep the water well oxygenated. A bacterial bloom can starve a tank of O2 quite fast!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If you do try it, make sure you keep the water well oxygenated. A bacterial bloom can starve a tank of O2 quite fast!

Good advice!

[571958]

I second Mark's commend on big improvement in water clarity. Since I dose at my moderate amound of less than 7ml per day (3ml~7ml. The water quality improved after 10 days. Infact my wife complained to me on the money I spend on the new bulbs - she thought I changed bulbs again with the present BLV bulbs juz 2 mths old. The added clarity in water quality makes the tank looks way brighter

This also take into consideration my ozone has been shut down by my ORP controller for several days since the ORP value already hit 400.

Max

[571958]

I add small amount of vodka into my tank 2 hrs after lights are on. The oxygen produce by the corals during photo-period will help to naturalize the amount of oxygen needed by the Bacteria boom.

Max

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
If you do try it, make sure you keep the water well oxygenated. A bacterial bloom can starve a tank of O2 quite fast!

Good advice!

[frankdreistein]

If you just take 0,1 ml vodka more on 100 liters every day you have to meassure your NO3 and PO4 values with a very accurate test (merck, machery & nagel, hach,.) and always have to look for slight white bacteria films, which in some cases can´t be seen.
So when NO3 and PO4 are on the values they should be just take half of the vodka then.
If the values rise again just add some more vodka,...

There also were some problems whith axoozanthele gorgonians, wich seem to got problems with the vodka method.

Some shoot their SPS in doing it to fast or in bringing their nutrients extrem down without an extra feeding of the corals.

[purplehaze]

Hey Frank, have you talked to Lars Sebralla about dosing vodka directly to a aquarium? Chech his site out and read about the Wodkafilter.... http://www.lars-sebralla.com/
I asked him and he answered: echter leichtsinn

[frankdreistein]

I know Lars side.

Anyway I´m not dosing vodka, because my water parameters are very low through jaubert and algae.

The people of the biggest german forum http://www.meeresaquaristik.de/foren/index.php
who tried it have good success with this method till now.

But surely you have to be very carefull....and you have to give out more money for accurate water tests.

[purplehaze]

Frank, I just checked the german forum out and there is a lot of stuff to read...
i'll talk to you later

[wasp]

Well I have started dosing vodka, this is day 3, using a dose rate of 2 mls daily for my system with a total of 75 gallons.
There has been no unusual cloudiness, or skimmer activity, however, today the algae has whitened, and the water is noticeably crystal clear.
What has me concerned though is that most of my mushrooms have shrivelled to less than 1/2 size. So far the zoo's are fine. I guess I could live without mushrooms, but couldn't lose my beautiful zoo's.
From reading the thread so far, the concensus seems to be that the vodka method affects some organisms that prefer a high nutrient environement, because it removes the nutrients. However, as I am only at day 3 of using vodka, I would have thought it is to soon to get such a negative reaction from my mushrooms just from the nutrient removal.
My suspicion is that the vodka is actually poisoning them. Anybody got any thoughts?
Otherwise though, got to say the tank looks sparkling clean and very nice.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I agree with the idea that reduced nutrients would seem unlikely to have an effect that fast, and I'd view it as a potential negative. Time will tell whether it goes away or gets worse.

[571958]

I don't think it's poisioning if you using human consumable Vodka? As I say, I've an incident where my Indo Xenia shunk in size, but my Pacific island white Xenia infact grew...n...grew! My Ricoreda. F & Yuma do very well and as for zoos it will depends on species. But take note that you need to place these mushroom under sufficient in such low nutrient environment..................

One of my Zoos colony was not doing well 2 weeks after the vodka method. It was lying right at the right-bottom corner, partial shaded by a 11inch Squamosa. It has been there for 6 mths doing ok, till my nutrient level drops..........I move it over to centre bottom of the tank where it is not block by anything and the colony recovers and have grew since. The same applies to SPS, but we supplement the shortage of nutrient by extra feedings of rotifiers & zooplankton.

I hope this helps.

Max

[571958]

BTW, can all SPS reefers here contribute their estimated success rate with Wild Fiji or Vanautau SPS colony?

I would like to understand if a low nutrient system couple with regular feedings enable a much higher survival rate of these corals from pristine waters.

So far I've only done 1 purchase since adpoting the Vodka method, since my tank is already rather full. The succes rate is 100% as per 1 purchase of 3 Fiji & 1 Vanautau specimen, this is not a good benchmark as I do not have as many purchase to do a reference point. My past purchase before Vodka method over 2~3 years has been 50% or less.

Max

[wasp]

Thanks both Randy and Max.
I am going to cut the dosage in 1/2, and will report back in a few days as to the health of the livestock.

[Obi-dad]

'I don't think it's poisioning if you using human consumable Vodka? '--- alcohol is toxic to every cell in the human body. Just depends on the concentration.

Don't get me wrong, I have a glass of red wine next to me as I write this

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There can be lots of problems due to added organics that are not really poisoning in the classic sense. Low O2, excessive bacteria or zoox growth, etc.

[dhess]

Could someone please tell me if i am right or wrong.

Would it be fair to say that in a nutrient situation like mine:

0 Nitrates but relatively high phosphates around 0.25

the vodka method should not be attempted as any bacterial bloom will be nitrate limited.

Has anyone with similar parrameters to mine tried dosing vodka?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, if those values are correct, you'll be nitrate limited and will be unlikely to drop phosphate too much in such a way. However, you might drop nitrate further, and that might be beneficial (depending on what the actual value really is).

[dhess]

Randy,

Thanks fro the lightning quick response .

Both parrams were tested using new salifert kits and in the nitrate test water remained perfectly clear.

I guess I'll just have to do a few largish 25% water changes and maybe use media such as phosphate killer.

The only problem is that I suspect my live rock has a fair bit of phosphate bound to it as a result of past neglect.

What course of action would you recommend?

[571958]

The german are using Lab grade test kits like Merck. Salifert not good enough for small values. But you can collect water samples right at the bottom of your tank and be surprise the values are there!

Max