dosing vodka to bring down N and P

[571958]

Hi Randy, the bottle of Ethanol I got a year back stated,

Ethy Alcohol 95% denaturated L261
C2H5OH and molecular weight of 46.07
Methanol not more than 5%
non-volatile residue not more than 0.01%

Appreciate you can explain if this is the right ethanol? I hope I did dose the right stuff a year back! BTW, I'm a chemistry idiot and the bottle was brought by my wife on my behalf, as her friend offer to help.

Thanks a Million
Max

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Appreciate you can explain if this is the right ethanol?

It is denatured, so it is sure not the right stuff for human drinking!!!!

I'm not sure that ethanol is a better choice for generating a bacterial bloom than is sugar.

That said, I'm also not sure what effects methanol might have on marine creatures. Since it is fairly toxic to humans, I might not risk adding it. If you really want to add ethanol, you might be better off with a nondenatured ethanol (no methanol or other ingredients that make it unsuitable for human consumption).

[571958]

Thanks, if I can't find non denatured Ethanol, better off using Volka..............

Regards,
Max

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, I think so.

And then if there is any left over, you can celebrate the success!

[571958]

Man, I should have send you some for your New Year Celebrations

Thanks a Million for Your Help,
Max

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You're welcome.

Good luck!

[rshimek]

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

Hi Randy,

That's the part that I don't know: if algae can take advantage of ethanol in the water column.

Algae aren't probably taking advantage of anything here, but bacteria are. In low concentrations, this ethanol will be absorbed by anaerobic bacteria and enter the fermentation pathways.

Other alcohols will be processed the same way, methanol for example. For that matter, you can do the same with small amounts of formalin, it gets converted to methanol and utilized.

There were a slug of papers about this in the early to mid 1970's, but I didn't treat them as any more than odd biochemistry trivia at the time. This is such an odd - contrary to intuition result - that I think it even made it into Science. I always thought that folks adding formalin to their cultures and seeing if they processed the stuff was rather bizarre. Personally, I think the original reseach was triggered by somebody inadvertantly tipping over a beaker of formalin into a tank and noticing that really nothing seemed to mind overly much.

If this treatment lowers phosphate in a tank, it simply means in those tanks phosphate is not likely limiting, but sugars are short supply. Pretty anorexic tanks, probably.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks, Ron!

[Machiavelli]

So does this mean that just adding sugar isnt as effective as adding sugar and ethanol/methanol or any other alcohols?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don't see a reason to prefer one over the other.

[onthefly]

Hi everyone,

We've been stewing on the same topic at NR.com.

http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/show...threadid=24852

Fortunately, one of our members is German and attached some of the spread sheet data, as well as the dose regime that was published in a german mag. Very interesting, and as a biochemist myself.....I'm stumped for a hardcore answer.

Anyway, thought some of you science geeks might want to see some of the published data.

BTW, they use the cheapest, cold carbon filtered "Wodka" they coukd find.....I wouldn't even drink it!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks for the link!

[movingshadow]

For anyone seeking further Info on this topic, I've started a thread over at nano-reef.com with this subject and a bunch of test results/graphics from indepentent german experiments. it seems some people are going to try the mrutzek/kokott method on test tanks... so if you're interested and want to follow this:

http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/show...threadid=24852

[Habib]

I would like to check for possible interferences of alcohol on nitrate testing.

I seem to remember about this very vaguely but was about 10 years ago.

The graph from the link shows that nitrate rises after one or so day after reducing the dosage.

The rise in nitrate is from about 0 ppm to about 7 ppm in just 2 days.

This makes me more suspicious about an interference with testing.

I have in the past created intentionally bacterial blooms and did measure PO4 and NO3. IIRC then that was not a method to reduce them significantly.


I have heard from a few people in Holland who dose Vodka that some of them see some improvements such as reduced algae growth.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have heard from a few people in Holland who dose Vodka that some of them see some improvements such as reduced algae growth.

Did they just "see" the improvements after drinking the vodka?

[Habib]

Did they just "see" the improvements after drinking the vodka?

That is the procedure. Add some to the tank and also drink some.

[asmujica]

Bizzare idea, I wonder if tequila will work as well

[movingshadow]

actually from what I understand, it wouldn't. This is due to the fact that vodka, in its production process, is cold carbon filtered which (if I understand correctly) leads to the overproduction in good bacterial growth.

hth

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Why would filtration matter?

[bertoni]

Without filtration, the tequila needs some lime to work... A bit of salt helps, too. ;-)

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Maybe the idea is to avoid the worm!

[movingshadow]

I'm not sure, as unfortunately I'm not exactly a science whizz... But the Mrutzek/Kokott article states, that there is a lacking carbon source in our marine systems, which is now being filled in with vodka. the vodka serves as a carbon source for beneficial bacterial life, I figure this is due to the filtration process on coal (as no other alcohols other than laboratory grade ethanol were utilized)

hth

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The carbon source there is the alcohol (ethanol) itself, which is CH3CH2OH.

[movingshadow]

see what I mean... not a science whizz... I'll get the article and the test results up on NR. com soon though... I'll post here when I'm done

[571958]

Hi Guys,
With testing on Vodka been run for 14 days, result has been excellent. The following is my tank parameters before & after

Test conducted on a 125G Berlin SPS + Clam tank.
Fish: 1xCB, 4XL.Wrasse, 1xCoral Goby, 1xalgae Benny
Feeding of SPS is 5X per week
Tank is BB w/ 100Kg of matured LR
Ozone w/controller set at 380mV.
H&S Skimmer 1500L -No.1 Skimmer in Europe!
Temp. 25~28 degree Celsius
Sg = 1.027
PH = 8.05~8.42
1 bag of Carbon insump
1 bag of RowaPhos insump
250W BLV 10K DE x 2 + 150W BLV DE x 1
4 Tunze all are 7000L/hr per pump
Return from Sump = MD40 =measured to be 3400L/hr


-----------------Before ------------------- After
Nitrate -----------5ppm------------------1ppm or less(undetectable)
PO4 --------------0.05ppm--------------0.015ppm or less


I started off with Top grade 40% alcohol Vodka. Dosage is 1ml per 150L of tank water and increase by slowly to 1ml per 100L over 7 days. I feel the dosage recmmende at the Germany Forum is good for tanks with big time nitrate issues. The test was conducted on a tanks with 60ppm nitrate & 0.7ppm PO4. Dosage should be admin or match to nitrate level. There is some side effect, most of my Acros have turn light pastel colors -> just like those regular SPS direct from Fiji or Solomon. Most reefers will realised that most Fiji SPS turn brown or at best turn to a darker tone from orginal colors. With this method I see all or most of my Acros turn to a light pastel hue. I believe this is due to very....very low level of nutrient in water as already used-up by the boom in Bacteria.

Now, comes the blunt truth. All or nearly 50% of my Indo-Zoanthid failed to open after 14 days of this method, some 20% of my mushroom turned white. Fiji Ricordia, Fiji white Xenia & Blastomussa are all OK. My Indonesia brown xenia died & Indonesia mushroom turn white as well.

I believe anyone who try this method have to be very careful. Our corals comes from a variety of places and some of these corals, even SPS can come from a environment with a certain amount of nutrient level. This is except Fiji corals, where water is god damn CLEAN! All my 18 clams, from XL Squamosa, Maximas & Corcea are all doing fine so far, with great shell gowth measured a bi-mthly-basis.

Max