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#76
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Pappone method??? Lord, how many 'methods' are there now?
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FSM ~ Touched by His noodly appendage ~ |
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pappone is just seafood mush. it's a recipe that is part of the blu coral method that is popular in italy.
it is a normal berlin low nutrient system with elevated levels of primarily Ca, Alk, Mag and the mush is fed at night. in that mush is a very small amount of sugar that many RC people are convinced is the key...some also add human growth hormone... i'd like to see/hear the effects of mixing that "mush" with a bacterioplankton system...but so far the response and results havent been the best... eric
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red|house|blog "i like bubbly, and i love animals - so it works out well" "there are a lot of people out there who think they have a modern house simply because they have alot of steel in it" |
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So, the "Pappone method" is feeding a mix of seafood mush with a tad of sugar at night? This is a method??? Feeding your tank has been elevated to a "method?"
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FSM ~ Touched by His noodly appendage ~ |
#79
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Greetings All !
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Sometimes it's good to be obscure and irrelevant ... Quote:
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But we ought to finish first things first ... we need to burn out on the chemolithotroph biofilm tangents, before we get to the free-living bacteria guild of the water column stuff. That's when it gets really interesting ... JMO
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Mesocosm |
#80
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Quote:
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Mesocosm |
#81
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Hard to pay attention when your head is either under fluorescent lights until the wee hours of the morning, or under water
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FSM ~ Touched by His noodly appendage ~ |
#82
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Though don't take that as any comment on attempts [here + elsewhere] to inject some discussion, science, and consideration into these subjects.
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read a lot, think for yourself Last edited by MiddletonMark; 08/02/2007 at 02:12 PM. |
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Hey, whatever people want to do. I'm happy with my fruit loop dosing. I'm thinking of looking into golden grahams and lucky charms, to increase the diversity of my microbial guild
p.s. Nice avatar Mark. Cute p.p.s I would laugh myself silly if in a few months the idea of dosing breakfast cereal started popping up here and there. Just friggin silly
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FSM ~ Touched by His noodly appendage ~ |
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Hey guys, I've been working on this new method for keeping reef tanks called the "Clean Ocean Method." It relies on the concept that residence times of water over coral reefs are often short. To help replicate this artificial sea water is mixed up to the same salinity, temperature and pH as the water in the tank. It is then dosed with 3 1/3 drops per 100 gal (no more, no less) of Chris's Super Ocean Cleaner which contains protonated hydroxyls (kudos to anyone that figures out what that is without looking too hard). 10% of the tank water is then thimbled out of the tank--yes, the thimble is critical--and this water is replaced with the new sea water that has been treated with Chris's Super Ocean Cleaner. The corals all respond with increased coloration, growth, and polyp extension. I should patent it, I swear
cj p.s. Sorry if I'm getting too loopy, on 2 hrs of sleep last night....
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FSM ~ Touched by His noodly appendage ~ |
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Greetings All !
Chris ... earlier you spoke of the desirability of increasing primary production. I couldn't agree more. When I ponder how one might go about doing that (generalized), I come up with stuff like this ... (a) Increase the population of primary producers by inoculation; (b) Decrease the population of predators of primary producers; (c) Increase photoperiod for photoautotrophs; (d) Select light spectrum for specific photoautotrophs; (e) Pulse appropriate nutrients for chemolithotrophs; (f) Provide appropriate substrate(s) for chemolithotrophs; (g) Provide appropriate micro-environments (O2, pH ... etc) for chemolithotrophs; (h) Structure flow patterns to increase mass transfer; (i) Structure flow patterns to facilitate bacterial attachment; (j) Disrupt pre-existing biofilm colonies (facilitate detachment). Any thoughts ? TIA
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Mesocosm |
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Greetings All !
Speaking of primary producers ... Quote:
Many thanks to crrichey for posting this here ... Skipping the nitrogen cycle? (RC, crrichey, 07.05.2007) http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...readid=1156637
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Mesocosm |
#87
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IMO I already incorporate many of those sub-methods in the ZEOvit system. I'm at a loss how to carryout sub-method b)? Specifically what organisms anyway? Cheers, Josh
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"Natural does not imply ideal; only acceptable or tolerable." Photos of my "Blau Arborescent Dschungel Riff" via the red house. |
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Greetings All !
What's up, Josh? Quote:
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Dr. Shimek presents some good background information regarding ciliates here ... Ciliated Protozoans - Unseen Marvels Dr. Ron Shimek http://web.archive.org/web/200306250...wb/default.asp Moe descibes the culture of ciliates here ... The Culture of Ciliates Martin Moe Advanced Aquarist Online October, 2002 http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...02/breeder.htm JMO ... HTH
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Mesocosm |
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Greetings All !
By the way, how bacterial grazers are impacting biofilms is kind of interesting ... Bacterioplankton Community Structure: Protists Control Net Production and the Proportion of Active Bacteria in a Coastal Marine Community. Paul A. del Giorgio, Josep M. Gasol, Dolors Vaque, Paola Mura, Susana Agusti, Carlos M. Duarte Limnology and Oceanography, Vol. 41, No. 6 (Sep., 1996) , pp. 1169-1179 Abstract http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=002...%3B2J#abstract Stumbling back towards the fruit loops ... errr ... "nutrients" ... thing for a moment, these may be useful to those who are interested ... Amino Acid Assimilation and Electron Transport System Activity in Attached and Free-Living Marine Bacteria. J. J. Bright and Madilyn Fletcher Appl Environ Microbiol 1983 March; 45(3): 818–825 Full Article http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pic...7&blobtype=pdf Also this one (but it's not for the faint hearted) ... Elemental Stoichiometry in Nutrient Pools in Oligotrophic Marine Ecosystems Anna Lucea Sureda November 2003 Full Dissertation http://www.tdx.cesca.es/TESIS_UPC/AV...426/THESIS.pdf JMO .. HTH
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Mesocosm |
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Two other sub-methods are sparking my interest... Regarding: (g) Provide appropriate micro-environments (O2, pH ... etc) for chemolithotrophs; and (i) Structure flow patterns to facilitate bacterial attachment; To optimize the above... -Increase the local (reactor) temperature? (more of a question- is the specific target bacteria(s)' optimum temperature above 'typical' system temperature?? (~27C)) -Conduct carbon/etc dosing directly into the reactor to maximize supplement usage by target organisms? -Highly aerated water? (eg skimmer output?) & disinfect (or attempt to sterilize) the reactor’s source water? (...sub-method b) -Modify the 'typical' (ZEOvit/etc) reactor to distribute the current within the reactor more uniformly (eg, multiple reactor injection points) to facilitate the attachment? Anything thoughts?
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"Natural does not imply ideal; only acceptable or tolerable." Photos of my "Blau Arborescent Dschungel Riff" via the red house. |
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Greetings All !
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In terms of manipulating the micro-environment that the chemolithotrophs find themselves in, I generally am concerned with the media. If I select the media properly ... geometry, volume, pore size ... variables like O2 and pH gradients will take care of themselves. Not that there isn't a lot more to this (stuff like boundary layer and mass transfer )... Quote:
That leaves me with dosing "the system" ... which is why I prefer non-continuous, low concentration pulses of nutrients. Quote:
I'm in it for the food webs ... ... ... Quote:
It's always seemed to me that manipulating current distribution presents some interesting potentials, but the geometry and space requirements (to say nothing of the plumbing) to truly get at this would seem impractical. BTW, when I look at "reactor" design & performance issues the phrase that keeps popping up in my twisted little mind is ... fluidized bed hybrid. JMO ... HTH
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Mesocosm |
#92
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josh great ideas! even if they are not worthy i applaud you for thinking outside the box.
meso- re: dosing to the media directly... what came to my mind was a T where we could acutally inject directly into the stream of water feeding the reactor...much like an IV. would there be any benefit to that? it shouldnt be all that much work...
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red|house|blog "i like bubbly, and i love animals - so it works out well" "there are a lot of people out there who think they have a modern house simply because they have alot of steel in it" |
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“In Vitro” versus “In Situ”
While we do dose molasses to accelerate our sewage treatment processes, it is done in vitro away from our homes. The sewage treatment plant is our “refugium.” In contrast, the sugar dosing of aquariums is done in situ and in the very environment in which we nurture our livestock. If molasses was dosed into the water we drink or the air we breathe, we would certainly suffer.
How is the in situ use of heterotrophic bacteria in the aquarium superior to the in vitro use of photoautotrophic macroalgae in a refugium? Macroalgae in the refugium requires no dosing, no blooms to skim, and no interference with life in the main aquarium. |
#94
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If we could get at real growth (biomass increase) & respiration numbers comparing dosing "entry point", I suspect that after 24 hours we would not see any statistically significant differences. JMO
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GDW |
#95
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Re: “In Vitro” versus “In Situ”
Greetings All !
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In Vitro In an artificial environment, such as a test tube; ... Outside a living organism; ... In an artificial environment, referring to a process or reaction occurring therein, as in a test tube or culture media. In Vivo Pertaining to a biochemical process or reaction taking place in a living cell or organism; ... A biological or biochemical process occurring in a living organism; ... (The term used to contrast with "in vitro" describing any study carried out within the living organism.). In Situ A term used in biology, where it means to examine the phenomenon exactly in place where it occurs (without removing it in some special medium etc.). Usually means something intermediate between in vivo and in vitro; ... In chemistry, in situ typically means "in the reaction mixture". Just trying to be clear ... Quote:
Bacteria Utilizes less volume within the system; Some strains show better uptake kinetics (... but some not); More rapid cellular growth; Utilization of higher percentage of system "niches"; Potential to feed corals & filter feeders (macro-aggregates); No lighting system required (unless considering cyanobacteria); Nutrient export does not require physical handling; Fewer negative allelopathic potentials (probable). Macroalgae No chemical or nutrient supplementation required (although Fe is helpful); Some species show better uptake kinetics (... but some not); Potential herbivore food source (... with a genus like Gracilaria); Potential in increase system's overall biodiversity; Potential zooplankton growth medium; Potential pH "stabilization" with reverse lighting; Requires less user "thinking", and perceived as less controversial. Additionally, I'm not sure what I "prefer" in terms of the risk assessment of ... rapid bacterial growth (O2 depletion) vs. "Going Sexual" (sporulation). I'm sure there are other rubrics ... JMO ... HTH
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Mesocosm |
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Interesting thread. I've been looking at alternative "remedies" for want of a better term for some time. After having a lot of success with chemical PO4 treatment (with Lanthanum) I was looking for something similar for Nitrate. I've come across something called Cozymase technology. It seems to be used in wastewater and as the system behind AZ-NO3 (an aquarium product discussed on RC in other threads). It's designed to encourage and enhance the actions of bacteria/enzymes to break down the target substance. I don't fully understand all the jargon but here's some info-
http://www.malatechwater.com/termekek_bioguard_en.html http://www.biologicalsolutions.org/P...GuardeIII.html http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_Aquari...ves_azno3.html In searching on Cozymase I found the following which sounded interesting - http://www.biochemj.org/bj/051/0330/0510330.pdf I did find reference to AZ-NO3 contents - "Concentrated Ptyalin Hydrolyzed Massecuite, Sodium Chloride, MG Aqueous and Cozymase Enzymes" A quick check shows that to be saliva enzymes and sugar, salt and more coenzymes (Cozymase = nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide.) These (and others I found while researching Cosymase) have me thinking I should be spitting vitamin B3 and sugar into my tank. |
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Greetings All !
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To the folks who want to start dosing products designed for septic tanks and porta-pottys into their captive marine ecosystems ... well ... may the force be with you. Please post how things turn out ... On a broader scale, what isjg is talking about is intriguing ... dosing specific coenzymes in order to manipulate specific segments of biogeochemical pathways. This is clearly, it seems to me, a "next level" beyond the mere dosing of vitamins. As far as my personal interests go, this tactic lies beyond the outer marker of the kinds of experimental games I'm willing to inflict on my ecosystems ... this is another part of what I was talking about when Boomer asked me about hormone dosing earlier. It's one thing to babble and rant enthusiastically about "carbon dosing" as part of a filtration and feeding strategy, but ... it's another thing entirely to get behind something which has the potential to muck directly with something like the TCA cycle. One of the phrases that keeps running through my warped little mind when I ponder this stuff is ... "unintended consequences". Bacteria aren't the only "things" which might consume and utilize coenzymes. Riddle me this: Might not zooxanthellae and cnidarian cellular components be "interested" in NAD dosing? Okay ... now riddle me this one: What are the effects of excess NAD on the metabolic functioning of either zooxanthellae, or cnidarian cells? In terms of reefkeeping, this landscape is largely unexplored, and there are some very unpleasant possibilities scattered around the terrain ... things like halogenic substitution which can do surprisingly nasty things on a cellular level. See ... The inhibition of growth and cozymase synthesis in bacteria by halogen-substituted nicotinic acids D. E. Hughes Biochem J. 1954 July; 57(3): 485–495. http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1269787 There are fundamental differences between a vitamin's behavior as part of a growth medium (niacin, for example), and the behavior of a nucleotide derivative of that same vitamin (cozymase, for example) acting as a coenzyme. JMO
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Mesocosm Last edited by mesocosm; 08/13/2007 at 10:27 AM. |
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To the folks who want to start dosing products designed for septic tanks and porta-pottys into their captive marine ecosystems ... well ... may the force be with you. Please post how things turn out
I do this now. I use swimming pool phosphate remover. Works great and got my PO4 from 3-5ppm down to undetectable. Sure beats hell out of paying 100 times the price for the same thing just because it's in a bottle from an aquarium supply co. Of course I spent months researching into how it worked, the chemistry etc did trials, tested on a frag tank etc before ever trying it in my display. And know exactly what I need to do to use it properly and deal with. Other people have tried tried La based products and had fish deaths. Like anything, you need to understand what it is, how it works, what it does, and potential ramifications before using it. This is why I've been spending a lot of time in researching this stuff. Now I have PO4 under control I'm now left with NO3. I've looked at denitrators, zeolites, carbon dosing etc and the latter seems to me to be the best avenue of approach. I'm no chemist and what little of chemistry I know is all due to researching stuff for my tank. The way I look at it, this AZ-NO3 is basically sugar and enzymes in a bottle. Many people have tried it and a lot have said it works. Some had no change and a few reported problems like algal blooms. It seems to me, that anything like this is going to be very dependent in individual circumstances. No two tanks are going to be identical. Understanding the workings of this type of approach is fundamental to achieving any sort of general broad based success in variable conditions. What conditions need to be met for this to work? What tank parameters are required, flow, oxygen, rock, temperature, volume, lighting, skimming, feeding etc and how do all these parameters impact on efficacy and efficiency. If this can be understood, then I don't doubt that one day we'll know exactly how much sugar, enzymes, co-enzymes, amino acids, vitamins etc are needed and how to use them. Here's some interesting info. First from Wiki on Glycolysis- "Glycolysis is a metabolic pathway by which a 6-carbon glucose (Glc) molecule is oxidized to two molecules of pyruvic acid (Pyr). .... The generation of high-energy molecules (ATP and NADH) as cellular energy sources as part of anaerobic and aerobic respiration.......As the foundation of both aerobic and anaerobic respiration, glycolysis is the archetype of universal metabolic processes known and occurring (with variations) in many types of cells in nearly all organisms. Glycolysis, through anaerobic respiration, is the main energy source in many prokaryotes, eukaryotic cells devoid of mitochondria (e.g. mature erythrocytes) and eukaryotic cells under low oxygen conditions (e.g. heavily exercising muscle or fermenting yeast)." Here's some more interesting reading on Glycolysis - http://web.indstate.edu/thcme/mwking/glycolysis.html Next from the article I posted previously - "glycolysis by washed suspensions of Lactobacillus arabinosis, which have been grown on a nicotinic acid-deficient medium, is stimulated by the addition of nicotinic acid. The stimulation is due to the synthesis of cozymase ...... Glucose alone of the constituents of the growth medium was essential for the synthesis of cozymase by washed suspensions. The uptake of nicotinic acid ran parallel to the synthesis of coenzyme and no detectable amounts of any possible intermediate in the synthesis were detected in cells or the suspending fluid. Unexpectedly, nicotinamide was found to be rapidly deamidated by the washed suspensions ...... The addition of nicotinic acid in concentrations from 3 x 10-8 to 10-4M to glycolysing washed suspensions of deficient cells caused a gradual increase in the rate of glycolysis....In young deficient cells (19-22 hr. growth) there was no significant difference in the effects on glycolysis or on the rate of cozymase synthesis when nicotinic acid was replaced by nicotinamide, nicotinamide riboside or nicotinamide ribotide. In older cells (30-48 hr. growth) glycolysis was stimulated more rapidly by the nicotinamide and its derivatives than by nicotinic acid, although the final rate of glycolysis was the same......In most species of bacteria, nicotinamide is as readily or more readily available for growth as is nicotinic acid" I'm seriously considering getting some extra vitamins next time I'm at the shop and giving it a try. BTW, I'd read that article (or one like it) previously and the bit that caught my eye was the reference to fluorine as an inhibitor. To those people (including me I might add) that use tap water for top ups, maybe it's not just the chlorine/chloramine that's a problem. I believe most of us would be living in areas with fluoridated water. Maybe we have something else to worry about Last edited by isjg; 08/13/2007 at 08:47 PM. |
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Dang, I went away on vacation and BAM someone brings up what has been running through my little mind for a long time.
Before I get to that let me state that some of you folks are brilliant. It is a shame that conversation must occur at a highly technical level on a forum in order to keep the usual politics and close minded comments away. I have been in the field of practical wastewater treatment for years now so I understand most of the chemistry & biology discussed but until mesocosm said "BTW, when I look at "reactor" design & performance issues the phrase that keeps popping up in my twisted little mind is ... fluidized bed hybrid." I felt like I had nothing to contribute. To be a simpleton for a moment. I don't think our problem is understanding the biology and chemistry. I think our problem is applying and controlling the biology and chemistry. Maybe this is already obvious but worth stating outright. In a wastewater treatment plant, I have a large mass of "foods" that I can remove in a self maintaining system. I can easily force the culture of "consumers" through simple environmental dynamics in separate processes. Its really so simple, I can't believe they pay me so much. In an aquarium, we are trying to treat such small quantities of "pollutants" in an environment that is highly variable. There is really no way that you can put an aquarium together with rock from somewhere, sand from somehere else and all sorts of other innoculators and control what becomes dominant and where. In fact, you might have different consumers dominant in different locations within the system. Isn't this why two different people can put the same system together from the same sources and have different results. Some folks grow macro like it is a weed. some can't. Is this because one tank effectve converts ammonia based products before the macro receive it? Isn't the answer to provide a mechanism to support a large enough biofilm relative to the system to provide treatment regardless of the dynamics of the main system and to be able to consistently remove that biofilm. It seems that the many bacteria/biology product producers are dancing all around this issue, but can't take the next step. They want to provide the "consumers" and their secondary needs but can't promise the substrate availability due to competition. Some such as Zeovit go a step farther and attempt to provide a suitable substrate but can't promise the removal of the full and dead "consumers" before they get trapped elsewhere. Isn't the answer to provide all of the mechanism in a secondary unit such as a "hybrid fluidized bed" filter. The filter has a tremendous amount of surface area to guarantee innocultion of the introduced "consumers' and their secondary needs before they can get away from the unit and for them to reproduce for a period of time before a substantial number can escape. The unit can be violently backflushed occasionally to remove the "consumers" who have done their job. Is it really this easy? Just some simpleton thoughts. |
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Greetings All !
Gods of the Reef, Redfish ... awesome post ! Quote:
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In terms of "indirect" manipulation of scleractinian protein synthesis? ... No. Quote:
JMO ... I'm going to step away from this for a brief while because I really need to read other folks' thoughts on all this. But a few parting opinions ... Quote:
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Folks who are really interested in this stuff might do well to ponder why is it ... exactly ... that bacterioplankton filtration systems require such relatively precise control of alkalinity. They might also do well to ponder why is it that the flow rate through the bacterial culture vessel is reportedly so critical. One last one ... Do we really believe that the various proprietary systems which utilize zeolith media "reactors" have the capacity to remove nitrogen and phosphate bearing compounds so rapidly from the water column that scleractinian death can quickly ensue? Do we really? ... JMO
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Mesocosm Last edited by mesocosm; 08/14/2007 at 11:43 AM. |
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