Inorganic Carbon to Reduce Phosphate & Nitrate?

[MCsaxmaster]

Pappone method??? Lord, how many 'methods' are there now?

[Flint&Eric]

pappone is just seafood mush. it's a recipe that is part of the blu coral method that is popular in italy.

it is a normal berlin low nutrient system with elevated levels of primarily Ca, Alk, Mag and the mush is fed at night. in that mush is a very small amount of sugar that many RC people are convinced is the key...some also add human growth hormone...

i'd like to see/hear the effects of mixing that "mush" with a bacterioplankton system...but so far the response and results havent been the best...


eric

[MCsaxmaster]

So, the "Pappone method" is feeding a mix of seafood mush with a tad of sugar at night? This is a method??? Feeding your tank has been elevated to a "method?"

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !

Originally posted by MiddletonMark
Careful what can of worms you open ...

Part of me is amazed that I haven't gotten cyber-stomped by now. Thank goodness no one takes me seriously about this stuff.

Sometimes it's good to be obscure and irrelevant ...

Originally posted by MCsaxmaster
... Lord, how many 'methods' are there now?

How many manufacturers, distributors, and cyber-reefkeeping sub-groups are there? ... ...

Originally posted by MiddletonMark
... Anyway, back to reading/lurking mode.

Stay tuned. At some point this thing may evolve into something which has been the underlying interest for my engaging this thread beyond pjf's original questions: The identification of some simple substances and dosing practices which (with a minimum of risk) have the potential to benefit the larger set of reefkeepers ... whether they use specific product lines, or not.

But we ought to finish first things first ... we need to burn out on the chemolithotroph biofilm tangents, before we get to the free-living bacteria guild of the water column stuff.

That's when it gets really interesting ...



JMO

[mesocosm]

Originally posted by MCsaxmaster
... Feeding your tank has been elevated to a "method?"

Where have you been, Chris? Hanging out on some Atlantic-Caribbean island sipping cold ones while watching the pre-hurricane cells roll by?

[MCsaxmaster]

Hard to pay attention when your head is either under fluorescent lights until the wee hours of the morning, or under water

[MiddletonMark]

Originally posted by MCsaxmaster
Pappone method??? Lord, how many 'methods' are there now?

I dunno. How many magic bullets in a clip?




Though don't take that as any comment on attempts [here + elsewhere] to inject some discussion, science, and consideration into these subjects.

[MCsaxmaster]

Hey, whatever people want to do. I'm happy with my fruit loop dosing. I'm thinking of looking into golden grahams and lucky charms, to increase the diversity of my microbial guild

p.s. Nice avatar Mark. Cute

p.p.s I would laugh myself silly if in a few months the idea of dosing breakfast cereal started popping up here and there. Just friggin silly

[MCsaxmaster]

Hey guys, I've been working on this new method for keeping reef tanks called the "Clean Ocean Method." It relies on the concept that residence times of water over coral reefs are often short. To help replicate this artificial sea water is mixed up to the same salinity, temperature and pH as the water in the tank. It is then dosed with 3 1/3 drops per 100 gal (no more, no less) of Chris's Super Ocean Cleaner which contains protonated hydroxyls (kudos to anyone that figures out what that is without looking too hard). 10% of the tank water is then thimbled out of the tank--yes, the thimble is critical--and this water is replaced with the new sea water that has been treated with Chris's Super Ocean Cleaner. The corals all respond with increased coloration, growth, and polyp extension. I should patent it, I swear

cj

p.s. Sorry if I'm getting too loopy, on 2 hrs of sleep last night....

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !


Chris ... earlier you spoke of the desirability of increasing primary production. I couldn't agree more. When I ponder how one might go about doing that (generalized), I come up with stuff like this ...

(a) Increase the population of primary producers by inoculation;
(b) Decrease the population of predators of primary producers;
(c) Increase photoperiod for photoautotrophs;
(d) Select light spectrum for specific photoautotrophs;
(e) Pulse appropriate nutrients for chemolithotrophs;
(f) Provide appropriate substrate(s) for chemolithotrophs;
(g) Provide appropriate micro-environments (O2, pH ... etc) for chemolithotrophs;
(h) Structure flow patterns to increase mass transfer;
(i) Structure flow patterns to facilitate bacterial attachment;
(j) Disrupt pre-existing biofilm colonies (facilitate detachment).

Any thoughts ?



TIA

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !


Speaking of primary producers ...

Abstract

Many ecological phenomena are characterized by context dependency, and the relationship between diversity and productivity is no exception. We examined the relationship between macroalgal diversity,and nutrient availability by evaluating the effects of reduced nutrients and their subsequent replacement via local-scale nutrient loading in tide pools. Macroalgae in Oregon coast high-intertidal pools have evolved in a nitrate-rich upwelling ecosystem, but instead of settling on low-intertidal reefs (where algae are often immersed in nutrient-rich nearshore waters) these individuals have colonized high-zone pools, where they are isolated from the ocean for extended periods of time and are subjected to extended periods, of nitrate depletion. In some pools, this nutrient stress was ameliorated by a positive interaction: the excretion of ammonium by invertebrates. We conducted experimental manipulations to quantify invertebrate-mediated ammonium loading and macroalgal ammonium uptake in high-intertidal pools. Variation in tide pool volume and invertebrate biomass created a gradient of local-scale nutrient inputs, allowing us to address the relationship between nitrogen loading and algal diversity. Slow-growing species tolerant of low nitrogen availability were joined by fast-growing species with higher nitrogen requirements in pools with higher ammonium loading rates. A fourfold increase in the ammonium loading rate was associated with a doubling in the number of macroalgal species, and macroalgal assemblages in more species-rich pools were characterized by higher rates of biomass-specific ammonium uptake. These patterns contrast with productivity-diversity relationships in terrestrial systems, where local-scale nutrient enrichments generally result in reduced producer diversity due to displacement of subordinate species by aggressive competitors. Our data suggest that the effect of enrichment on diversity is context-dependent. Each ecosystem has a critical level of nutrient availability, determined by the level of nutrients typically available in that system. Below this critical level, local-scale nutrient additions increase diversity, but above it, diversity declines with enrichment.


Matthew E S Bracken and K J. Nielsen,
Diversity of intertidal macroalgae increases with nitrogen loading by invertebrates (2004). Ecology. 85 (10), pp. 2828-2836.

Postprint available free at: http://repositories.cdlib.org/postprints/53

Many thanks to crrichey for posting this here ...

Skipping the nitrogen cycle?
(RC, crrichey, 07.05.2007)
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...readid=1156637

[majesticangelfish]

Originally posted by mesocosm
Any thoughts ?
[/B]

Hi Gary,
IMO I already incorporate many of those sub-methods in the ZEOvit system. I'm at a loss how to carryout sub-method b)? Specifically what organisms anyway?


Cheers, Josh

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !


What's up, Josh?

Originally posted by majesticangelfish
... already incorporate many of those sub-methods ...

No one should be surprised that the various bacterioplankton product lines are intended to address some of these issues.

Originally posted by majesticangelfish
... I'm at a loss how to carryout sub-method (b)? ...

You and me both ... just trying to cover all the bases. Disruption of primary producer populations by predation seemed a necessary inclusion (not that it has a whole lot of practical value).

Originally posted by majesticangelfish
... Specifically what organisms anyway?

The bacteria predators that has perhaps been most discussed in terms of its culturing and introduction to marine aquaria are ... ciliates.

Dr. Shimek presents some good background information regarding ciliates here ...

Ciliated Protozoans - Unseen Marvels
Dr. Ron Shimek
http://web.archive.org/web/200306250...wb/default.asp


Moe descibes the culture of ciliates here ...

The Culture of Ciliates
Martin Moe
Advanced Aquarist Online
October, 2002
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...02/breeder.htm



JMO ... HTH

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !


By the way, how bacterial grazers are impacting biofilms is kind of interesting ...

Bacterioplankton Community Structure: Protists Control Net Production and the Proportion of Active Bacteria in a Coastal Marine Community.
Paul A. del Giorgio, Josep M. Gasol, Dolors Vaque, Paola Mura, Susana Agusti, Carlos M. Duarte
Limnology and Oceanography, Vol. 41, No. 6 (Sep., 1996) , pp. 1169-1179

Abstract
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=002...%3B2J#abstract





Stumbling back towards the fruit loops ... errr ... "nutrients" ... thing for a moment, these may be useful to those who are interested ...

Amino Acid Assimilation and Electron Transport System Activity in Attached and Free-Living Marine Bacteria.
J. J. Bright and Madilyn Fletcher
Appl Environ Microbiol
1983 March; 45(3): 818–825

Full Article
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pic...7&blobtype=pdf


Also this one (but it's not for the faint hearted) ...

Elemental Stoichiometry in Nutrient Pools in Oligotrophic Marine Ecosystems
Anna Lucea Sureda
November 2003

Full Dissertation
http://www.tdx.cesca.es/TESIS_UPC/AV...426/THESIS.pdf




JMO .. HTH

[majesticangelfish]

Originally posted by mesocosm
Greetings All !
What's up, Josh?

Trying to absorb this information after a long day at uni! Great stuff.

Originally posted by mesocosm
Greetings All !
Disruption of primary producer populations by predation seemed a necessary inclusion (not that it has a whole lot of practical value).

That's what I was assuming... for the typical reef system… Thanks for the links!

Two other sub-methods are sparking my interest...

Regarding:
(g) Provide appropriate micro-environments (O2, pH ... etc) for chemolithotrophs;
and
(i) Structure flow patterns to facilitate bacterial attachment;

To optimize the above...

-Increase the local (reactor) temperature? (more of a question- is the specific target bacteria(s)' optimum temperature above 'typical' system temperature?? (~27C))
-Conduct carbon/etc dosing directly into the reactor to maximize supplement usage by target organisms?
-Highly aerated water? (eg skimmer output?) & disinfect (or attempt to sterilize) the reactor’s source water? (...sub-method b)

-Modify the 'typical' (ZEOvit/etc) reactor to distribute the current within the reactor more uniformly (eg, multiple reactor injection points) to facilitate the attachment?


Anything thoughts?

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !

Originally posted by majesticangelfish
... Increase the local (reactor) temperature? (more of a question- is the specific target bacteria(s)' optimum temperature above 'typical' system temperature?? (~27C)) ...

Going right at a fundamental variable like temperature has much appeal, doesn't it? But unless you're prepared to isolate the culture vessel from the rest of the system, I could easily see how the other occupants of the ecosystem might object. As far as an "optimum culturing temperature" goes ... we're talking about a diverse consortia of micro-beasties. The best we're probably going to be able to do is a less than optimal ... "average" ... number that both falls within the the useful productivity ranges of the bacteria involved, and that also satisfies the requirements of the ecosystems other inhabitants. My sense is that a 78-82 F range is probably adequate.

In terms of manipulating the micro-environment that the chemolithotrophs find themselves in, I generally am concerned with the media. If I select the media properly ... geometry, volume, pore size ... variables like O2 and pH gradients will take care of themselves.

Not that there isn't a lot more to this (stuff like boundary layer and mass transfer )...

Originally posted by majesticangelfish
... Conduct carbon/etc dosing directly into the reactor to maximize supplement usage by target organisms? ...

"Contact time" with nutrients has consumed a lot of my attention. In terms of what's going on with the biofilm within the vessel, I don't see how it would be practical unless we're prepared to isolate the culture vessel, and manipulate its conditions independently of the aquarium. This initially strikes me as being more hassle than it's worth ... but I'm open to suggestions.

That leaves me with dosing "the system" ... which is why I prefer non-continuous, low concentration pulses of nutrients.

Originally posted by majesticangelfish
... Highly aerated water? (eg skimmer output?) & disinfect (or attempt to sterilize) the reactor’s source water? (...sub-method b) ...

My husbandry preferences take me more along the lines of segments of a food web ... using biological agents seems more practical (and desirable) than mechanical toys. For the record, I'm probably the only person you'll ever come across whose main interest in bacterioplankton filtration systems has absolutely nothing to do with either Acroporid husbandry, or coral coloration.

I'm in it for the food webs ... ... ...

Originally posted by majesticangelfish
... Modify the 'typical' ... reactor to distribute the current within the reactor more uniformly (eg, multiple reactor injection points) to facilitate the attachment?

Look at what Bright & Fletcher (1983) are talking about ... the effect of the angle at which water impacts a biofilm. Strangely enough, I suspect that the columnar vessel shape it actually pretty efficient. I doubt we can get at maximum efficiencies without taking control of the orientation of the media within the column (a dubious prospect, at best).

It's always seemed to me that manipulating current distribution presents some interesting potentials, but the geometry and space requirements (to say nothing of the plumbing) to truly get at this would seem impractical. BTW, when I look at "reactor" design & performance issues the phrase that keeps popping up in my twisted little mind is ... fluidized bed hybrid.



JMO ... HTH

[Flint&Eric]

josh great ideas! even if they are not worthy i applaud you for thinking outside the box.

meso-
re: dosing to the media directly... what came to my mind was a T where we could acutally inject directly into the stream of water feeding the reactor...much like an IV. would there be any benefit to that? it shouldnt be all that much work...

[pjf]

While we do dose molasses to accelerate our sewage treatment processes, it is done in vitro away from our homes. The sewage treatment plant is our “refugium.” In contrast, the sugar dosing of aquariums is done in situ and in the very environment in which we nurture our livestock. If molasses was dosed into the water we drink or the air we breathe, we would certainly suffer.

How is the in situ use of heterotrophic bacteria in the aquarium superior to the in vitro use of photoautotrophic macroalgae in a refugium? Macroalgae in the refugium requires no dosing, no blooms to skim, and no interference with life in the main aquarium.

[GDW]

Originally posted by Flint&Eric
... dosing to the media directly... what came to my mind was a T where we could acutally inject directly into the stream of water feeding the reactor...much like an IV. ...

This is the "classic" route. The folks who set up the massive bio-tower systems which were "fed" stuff ranging from methane, ethanol, and molassas (documented as far back as the 1960's and 1970's) weren't dosing the system ... they were dosing the media vessel.

Originally posted by Flint&Eric
... would there be any benefit to that? ...

What you get is a larger, transient nutrient spike (compared with the dilution resulting from "dosing" into the display volume, for example). My personal preference is the "dilution" route ... but only because I'm most interested in manipulating the system as a whole.

If we could get at real growth (biomass increase) & respiration numbers comparing dosing "entry point", I suspect that after 24 hours we would not see any statistically significant differences.


JMO

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !

... “In Vitro” versus “In Situ” ...

Just so it's clear how I'm using these terms ...

In Vitro
In an artificial environment, such as a test tube; ... Outside a living organism; ... In an artificial environment, referring to a process or reaction occurring therein, as in a test tube or culture media.

In Vivo
Pertaining to a biochemical process or reaction taking place in a living cell or organism; ... A biological or biochemical process occurring in a living organism; ... (The term used to contrast with "in vitro" describing any study carried out within the living organism.).

In Situ
A term used in biology, where it means to examine the phenomenon exactly in place where it occurs (without removing it in some special medium etc.). Usually means something intermediate between in vivo and in vitro; ... In chemistry, in situ typically means "in the reaction mixture".


Just trying to be clear ...

Originally posted by pjf
How is the ... use of heterotrophic bacteria in the aquarium superior to the ... use of photoautotrophic macroalgae in a refugium? Macroalgae in the refugium requires no dosing, no blooms to skim, and no interference with life in the main aquarium.

"Superior" isn't how I look at it. I see this kind of stuff in terms of "compare & contrast". I can see the logic of either being preferred as a function of "specific circumstance". The way it breaks down for me is roughly ...

Bacteria
Utilizes less volume within the system;
Some strains show better uptake kinetics (... but some not);
More rapid cellular growth;
Utilization of higher percentage of system "niches";
Potential to feed corals & filter feeders (macro-aggregates);
No lighting system required (unless considering cyanobacteria);
Nutrient export does not require physical handling;
Fewer negative allelopathic potentials (probable).

Macroalgae
No chemical or nutrient supplementation required (although Fe is helpful);
Some species show better uptake kinetics (... but some not);
Potential herbivore food source (... with a genus like Gracilaria);
Potential in increase system's overall biodiversity;
Potential zooplankton growth medium;
Potential pH "stabilization" with reverse lighting;
Requires less user "thinking", and perceived as less controversial.

Additionally, I'm not sure what I "prefer" in terms of the risk assessment of ... rapid bacterial growth (O2 depletion) vs. "Going Sexual" (sporulation).

I'm sure there are other rubrics ...




JMO ... HTH

[isjg]

Interesting thread. I've been looking at alternative "remedies" for want of a better term for some time. After having a lot of success with chemical PO4 treatment (with Lanthanum) I was looking for something similar for Nitrate. I've come across something called Cozymase technology. It seems to be used in wastewater and as the system behind AZ-NO3 (an aquarium product discussed on RC in other threads). It's designed to encourage and enhance the actions of bacteria/enzymes to break down the target substance. I don't fully understand all the jargon but here's some info-

http://www.malatechwater.com/termekek_bioguard_en.html
http://www.biologicalsolutions.org/P...GuardeIII.html

http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_Aquari...ves_azno3.html

In searching on Cozymase I found the following which sounded interesting -
http://www.biochemj.org/bj/051/0330/0510330.pdf

I did find reference to AZ-NO3 contents -
"Concentrated Ptyalin Hydrolyzed Massecuite, Sodium Chloride, MG Aqueous and Cozymase Enzymes"
A quick check shows that to be saliva enzymes and sugar, salt and more coenzymes (Cozymase = nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide.)

These (and others I found while researching Cosymase) have me thinking I should be spitting vitamin B3 and sugar into my tank.

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !

Cozymase is based on the principle of using all natural vitamin and energy suppliers, as well as, minerals and essential salts to existing microbes and enzymes in septic, grease or wastewater systems. Cozymase Technology reactivates dead or sluggish bacterial systems by adding very specific vitamins to it.

Source (scroll down to page 11 of the brochure)
http://www.transagra.ca/brochure_72.pdf

BioGUARDE III ... is there no end to our madness? ... hehe ...

To the folks who want to start dosing products designed for septic tanks and porta-pottys into their captive marine ecosystems ... well ... may the force be with you.

Please post how things turn out ...




On a broader scale, what isjg is talking about is intriguing ... dosing specific coenzymes in order to manipulate specific segments of biogeochemical pathways. This is clearly, it seems to me, a "next level" beyond the mere dosing of vitamins.

As far as my personal interests go, this tactic lies beyond the outer marker of the kinds of experimental games I'm willing to inflict on my ecosystems ... this is another part of what I was talking about when Boomer asked me about hormone dosing earlier. It's one thing to babble and rant enthusiastically about "carbon dosing" as part of a filtration and feeding strategy, but ... it's another thing entirely to get behind something which has the potential to muck directly with something like the TCA cycle. One of the phrases that keeps running through my warped little mind when I ponder this stuff is ... "unintended consequences". Bacteria aren't the only "things" which might consume and utilize coenzymes. Riddle me this: Might not zooxanthellae and cnidarian cellular components be "interested" in NAD dosing? Okay ... now riddle me this one: What are the effects of excess NAD on the metabolic functioning of either zooxanthellae, or cnidarian cells?

In terms of reefkeeping, this landscape is largely unexplored, and there are some very unpleasant possibilities scattered around the terrain ... things like halogenic substitution which can do surprisingly nasty things on a cellular level. See ...

The inhibition of growth and cozymase synthesis in bacteria by halogen-substituted nicotinic acids
D. E. Hughes
Biochem J. 1954 July; 57(3): 485–495.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1269787




There are fundamental differences between a vitamin's behavior as part of a growth medium (niacin, for example), and the behavior of a nucleotide derivative of that same vitamin (cozymase, for example) acting as a coenzyme.



JMO

[isjg]

To the folks who want to start dosing products designed for septic tanks and porta-pottys into their captive marine ecosystems ... well ... may the force be with you. Please post how things turn out

I do this now. I use swimming pool phosphate remover. Works great and got my PO4 from 3-5ppm down to undetectable. Sure beats hell out of paying 100 times the price for the same thing just because it's in a bottle from an aquarium supply co. Of course I spent months researching into how it worked, the chemistry etc did trials, tested on a frag tank etc before ever trying it in my display. And know exactly what I need to do to use it properly and deal with. Other people have tried tried La based products and had fish deaths. Like anything, you need to understand what it is, how it works, what it does, and potential ramifications before using it.

This is why I've been spending a lot of time in researching this stuff. Now I have PO4 under control I'm now left with NO3. I've looked at denitrators, zeolites, carbon dosing etc and the latter seems to me to be the best avenue of approach. I'm no chemist and what little of chemistry I know is all due to researching stuff for my tank.

The way I look at it, this AZ-NO3 is basically sugar and enzymes in a bottle. Many people have tried it and a lot have said it works. Some had no change and a few reported problems like algal blooms.
It seems to me, that anything like this is going to be very dependent in individual circumstances. No two tanks are going to be identical. Understanding the workings of this type of approach is fundamental to achieving any sort of general broad based success in variable conditions.

What conditions need to be met for this to work? What tank parameters are required, flow, oxygen, rock, temperature, volume, lighting, skimming, feeding etc and how do all these parameters impact on efficacy and efficiency. If this can be understood, then I don't doubt that one day we'll know exactly how much sugar, enzymes, co-enzymes, amino acids, vitamins etc are needed and how to use them.

Here's some interesting info. First from Wiki on Glycolysis-
"Glycolysis is a metabolic pathway by which a 6-carbon glucose (Glc) molecule is oxidized to two molecules of pyruvic acid (Pyr). .... The generation of high-energy molecules (ATP and NADH) as cellular energy sources as part of anaerobic and aerobic respiration.......As the foundation of both aerobic and anaerobic respiration, glycolysis is the archetype of universal metabolic processes known and occurring (with variations) in many types of cells in nearly all organisms. Glycolysis, through anaerobic respiration, is the main energy source in many prokaryotes, eukaryotic cells devoid of mitochondria (e.g. mature erythrocytes) and eukaryotic cells under low oxygen conditions (e.g. heavily exercising muscle or fermenting yeast)."

Here's some more interesting reading on Glycolysis -
http://web.indstate.edu/thcme/mwking/glycolysis.html

Next from the article I posted previously -
"glycolysis by washed suspensions of Lactobacillus arabinosis, which have been grown on a nicotinic acid-deficient medium, is stimulated by the addition of nicotinic acid. The stimulation is due to the synthesis of cozymase ...... Glucose alone of the constituents of the growth medium was essential for the synthesis of cozymase by washed suspensions. The uptake of nicotinic acid ran parallel to the synthesis of coenzyme and no detectable amounts of any possible intermediate in the synthesis were detected in cells or the suspending fluid. Unexpectedly, nicotinamide was found to be rapidly deamidated by the washed suspensions ...... The addition of nicotinic acid in concentrations from 3 x 10-8 to 10-4M to glycolysing washed suspensions of deficient cells caused a gradual increase in the rate of glycolysis....In young deficient cells (19-22 hr. growth) there was no significant difference in the effects on glycolysis or on the rate of cozymase synthesis when nicotinic acid was replaced by nicotinamide, nicotinamide riboside or nicotinamide ribotide. In older cells (30-48 hr. growth) glycolysis was stimulated more rapidly by the nicotinamide and its derivatives than by nicotinic acid, although the final rate of glycolysis was the same......In most species of bacteria, nicotinamide is as readily or more readily available for growth as is nicotinic acid"

I'm seriously considering getting some extra vitamins next time I'm at the shop and giving it a try.

BTW, I'd read that article (or one like it) previously and the bit that caught my eye was the reference to fluorine as an inhibitor. To those people (including me I might add) that use tap water for top ups, maybe it's not just the chlorine/chloramine that's a problem. I believe most of us would be living in areas with fluoridated water. Maybe we have something else to worry about

[Redfish]

Dang, I went away on vacation and BAM someone brings up what has been running through my little mind for a long time.

Before I get to that let me state that some of you folks are brilliant. It is a shame that conversation must occur at a highly technical level on a forum in order to keep the usual politics and close minded comments away. I have been in the field of practical wastewater treatment for years now so I understand most of the chemistry & biology discussed but until mesocosm said "BTW, when I look at "reactor" design & performance issues the phrase that keeps popping up in my twisted little mind is ... fluidized bed hybrid." I felt like I had nothing to contribute.

To be a simpleton for a moment. I don't think our problem is understanding the biology and chemistry. I think our problem is applying and controlling the biology and chemistry. Maybe this is already obvious but worth stating outright.

In a wastewater treatment plant, I have a large mass of "foods" that I can remove in a self maintaining system. I can easily force the culture of "consumers" through simple environmental dynamics in separate processes. Its really so simple, I can't believe they pay me so much.

In an aquarium, we are trying to treat such small quantities of "pollutants" in an environment that is highly variable. There is really no way that you can put an aquarium together with rock from somewhere, sand from somehere else and all sorts of other innoculators and control what becomes dominant and where. In fact, you might have different consumers dominant in different locations within the system. Isn't this why two different people can put the same system together from the same sources and have different results. Some folks grow macro like it is a weed. some can't. Is this because one tank effectve converts ammonia based products before the macro receive it?

Isn't the answer to provide a mechanism to support a large enough biofilm relative to the system to provide treatment regardless of the dynamics of the main system and to be able to consistently remove that biofilm. It seems that the many bacteria/biology product producers are dancing all around this issue, but can't take the next step. They want to provide the "consumers" and their secondary needs but can't promise the substrate availability due to competition. Some such as Zeovit go a step farther and attempt to provide a suitable substrate but can't promise the removal of the full and dead "consumers" before they get trapped elsewhere.

Isn't the answer to provide all of the mechanism in a secondary unit such as a "hybrid fluidized bed" filter. The filter has a tremendous amount of surface area to guarantee innocultion of the introduced "consumers' and their secondary needs before they can get away from the unit and for them to reproduce for a period of time before a substantial number can escape. The unit can be violently backflushed occasionally to remove the "consumers" who have done their job.

Is it really this easy? Just some simpleton thoughts.

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !


Gods of the Reef, Redfish ... awesome post !

Originally posted by Redfish
... It is a shame that conversation must occur at a highly technical level on a forum in order to keep the usual politics and close minded comments away. ...

Indeed ...

Originally posted by Redfish
... Is it really this easy? ...

In terms of nutrient reduction? ... Yes.
In terms of "indirect" manipulation of scleractinian protein synthesis? ... No.

Originally posted by Redfish
There is really no way that you can put an aquarium together with rock from somewhere, sand from somehere else and all sorts of other innoculators and control what becomes dominant and where. In fact, you might have different consumers dominant in different locations within the system. Isn't this why two different people can put the same system together from the same sources and have different results.

Indeed ... although I might quickly add that I don't believe that our systems are as terminally unique as manufacturers, distributors, etailers, and retailers would like us to continue to believe.

JMO ...





I'm going to step away from this for a brief while because I really need to read other folks' thoughts on all this. But a few parting opinions ...

Isn't the answer to provide a mechanism to support a large enough biofilm relative to the system to provide treatment regardless of the dynamics of the main system ...

Yes ...

... and to be able to consistently remove that biofilm.

Yes ... this is one of the "keys". This (along with a couple of variables characterizing the media) is the fundamental departure from the fluidized beds which have been in the marketplace for decades.

... a tremendous amount of surface area ...

I'm not at all convinced that an exceptionally large surface area is required. I am convinced that the heart of it has very little to do with "special" media with surface area and/or pore characteristics different from what's been available for decades (... although there are some intriguing strain-specific possibilities). Think attachment/detachment dynamics (from flow rate through the vessel, as opposed to manual disruption), and mass transfer rate ... not "magic stones".



Folks who are really interested in this stuff might do well to ponder why is it ... exactly ... that bacterioplankton filtration systems require such relatively precise control of alkalinity. They might also do well to ponder why is it that the flow rate through the bacterial culture vessel is reportedly so critical.

One last one ... Do we really believe that the various proprietary systems which utilize zeolith media "reactors" have the capacity to remove nitrogen and phosphate bearing compounds so rapidly from the water column that scleractinian death can quickly ensue?

Do we really? ...



JMO