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#26
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Indeed! This thread has been very interesting!
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Jonathan Bertoni |
#27
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Photoautotrophic Focus
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The notion of skimming heterotrophic microorganisms for nitrogen export is less obvious. In wastewater treatment, methanol or molasses are dosed to provide organic carbon to anaerobic heterotrophs that reduce nitrates to N2 gas (http://www.methanol.org/pdf/wastewater.pdf, http://www.swhydro.arizona.edu/archi...1/feature4.pdf). In aquaria, the skimming of anaerobes from live rock or deep sand beds is neither desirable nor practical. We still need to identify the microorganisms that carbon dosing promotes in the aerobic water column of an aquarium. Aerobic heterotrophs are normally associated with the consumption of oxygen and organic materials to produce CO2 and inorganic nitrogen. It would be valuable to measure the impact of carbon dosing on ammonia, nitrite and dissolved oxygen levels. |
#28
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This should be thread of the month!
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#29
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Greetings All !
In order to avoid a massive (irritating) post, I'm going to come at this in pieces. Hope folks don't find this too annoying. Quote:
Benthic algae have indeed been documented as superior competitors for ammonia, in comparison to ammonia-oxidizing bacteria, here ... Quote:
Interestingly enough, such competitive superiority is not universal across the full range of algae vs. bacteria interactions. For example, some heterotrophic bacteria are documented as superior ammonia competitors (vs. algae) here ... Quote:
Additionally, it turns out that some bacteria can be superior competitors for P, as documented here ... Quote:
For the record, there is a significant group of European reefkepers who much prefer what I do not ... they dose ammonium chloride as a way to overcome nitrogen limitation (see Jorg Kokott's fascinating multi-part series on nutrition in reef sysytems in Coral magazine). If I were pulsing small amounts of something like NH4Cl through a system, then a microalgae and macroalgae export focus would make lots and lots of sense (as in clearly superior to bacteria) ... on several levels. JMO ... your mileage will vary.
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Mesocosm |
#30
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Greetings All !
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I've been data-mining on bacterioplankton concepts ever since ... JMO ... many ways to achieve low nutrient water columns.
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Mesocosm |
#31
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Greetings All !
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BTW, guess which RC userID has arguably posted more documentation about this type of stuff than anyone else? ... ... Boomer Quote:
JMO
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Mesocosm |
#32
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Greetings All !
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I'd suggest that any initial set needs to include these ... Phytoplankton Diatoms Dinoflagellates Cyanobacteria Bacterioplankton Bacteria Archaea Given the intimate relationship between the above listed groups and zooplankton, and the susceptability of zooplankton larvae to export via skimming, I wonder if some zooplankton might also need to be included. Looking forward to reading other opinions.
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Mesocosm |
#33
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Greetings All !
Quote:
Nutrition and Metabolism of Marine Bacteria I. Survey of Nutritional Requirements Robert A. MacLeod, Eva Onofrey, and Margaret E. Norris 1954 Full Article http://jb.asm.org/cgi/reprint/68/6/680.pdf Consumption of dissolved organic carbon by marine bacteria and demand for inorganic nutrients Ulla Li Zweifel, Bo Norrman, Ake Hagstrom Marine Ecology Progress Series Vol. 101: 23-32, 1993 Full Article http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps/101/m101p023.pdf Inorganic nitrogen utilization by assemblages of marine bacteria in seawater culture S. G. Horrigan, A. Hagstrom, I. Koike & F. Azam Marine Ecology Progress Series, Vol. 50, pp.147-150 1988 Full Article (pdf) http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps/50/m050p147.pdf Want to tap into one of the online informational "motherlodes" regarding the nutrition and metabolism of marine bacteria? Check out the links to MacLeod's stuff from this Google search: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?as...j=all&hl=en&lr But there's a rub ... I remain uncertain as to the direct applicability of such hard data. Clearly something fundamental is going on, but translating that awareness into practical husbandry remains elusive to me. The sugar/vodka tangent, while useful in a limited way, is a dead-end in terms of maximumizing efficiencies. There exists a serious gap between the academic research literature, and the proprietary formulae of various manufacturers. Until something bridges the gap, we're almost ... but not quite ... stuck. Even so, participants in cyber-reefkeeping communities are doing some pretty extraordinary things in a variety of aquaculture realms. It's my hope that by posting this kind of reference materials that components of the bridge can begin construction. We'll see ... JMO .. HTH
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Mesocosm |
#34
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Bacterioplankton Filtration
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The bacterioplankton filtration that you describe seems superior to the refugiums, reactors and protein skimmers that aquarists normally use. I would be interested in links to this type of filtration. Thanks! |
#35
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Greetings All !
Before suffering through the marketing hype of the various proprietary bacterioplankton systems, I would suggest at least a moderate exposure to some of the historical discussions about these various product lines. Here's a representative example of the kinds of "classic" threads that I'm talking about ... dosing vodka to bring down N and P (RC, frankdreistein, 12.25.2003) http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...5&pagenumber=1 Quote:
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ELOS PolypLabs Prodibio Ultralith System (Fauna Marin) ZEOvit System (Korallen-Zucht) As you might imagine, most of these systems have been discussed in RC. Examples of such discussions include ... my house reef (211 g.) (RC, Iwan, 11.01.2005) http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=700454 Prodibio (RC, bosborn1, 03.25.2006) http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...5&pagenumber=1 DARK's 210g on Polyp Labs System Reef-resh and Reef Roids (RC, DARKPHREAK, 04.04.2006) http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=817441 ZEO...ZEO...ZEO...ULTRALITH System !!! (RC, Aquarium Obsessed, 08.13.2006) http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=905996 Can we talk about Zeo, if we promise to be civil? (RC, kabbord, 06.06.2005) http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...ghlight=zeovit I would strongly urge you to research these systems ... for yourself ... before engaging the marketing strategies which are inevitably associated with all of these products. A simple Google search using the product line keywords listed above will yield more commercial link hits than you can shake a gorgonian at. The proprietary nature of many of the components of these systems makes critical evaluation difficult ... compounded by the refusal of manufacturers and distributors to present non-revelational (with regards to legitimate proprietary information), replicable experimental results. Not that this isn't the "industry standard" ... ... seen any objective, replicable skimmer performance data lately? ... It is also perhaps worth noting that many serious reefkeeping minds consider these types of products along a continuum ranging from innocuous to fraudulent ... including folks like Dr. Randy Holmes-Farley and Eric Borneman. The history of some of the discussions regarding these products have been "controversial" ... ... to say the least ... JMO ... HTH
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Mesocosm |
#36
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Meso
BTW, guess which RC userID has arguably posted more documentation about this type of stuff than anyone else? ... ... Boomer Yah but now I leave it you to you and think you are ahead of me Yeah wait It is not me but my evil twin and good buddy Bomber He has left RC Meso and is now over at The Reef Tank as Spanky. I just talked to him on the phone not to long ago. People always get us confused. He is the Bacteria guy from NOAA, a retired Marine Pathobiologist.
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If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be. |
#37
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I noticed he's not been around I used to like his threads (when I had a few spare hours LOL)
How come he left RC? |
#38
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It had to do with Eric Borenman and Ron trying to find out who he really was and Eric deleting his posts, which he had not write to do. There was lots of posts on it so he just decide to leave and more or less Eric got booted off of RC and Ron went with him
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If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be. |
#39
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Oops! One of those kind of things!
Looks like I missed the whole thing, anyway better leave it at that, enough said. Back to the topic! |
#40
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Bacterioplankton Products
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I'd be interested in the bacterioplankton product that you had such success with. Which one was it? What bacterial culture was used and where did you acquire it from? Did it require carbon dosing? Thanks! |
#41
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Greetings All !
pjf ... fair enough, but I'm entirely uninterested in getting into the details of specific proprietary product lines. I'm interested in the principles, and research documentation, which underlie such product lines. That being said ... Quote:
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If this degenerates into a ZEOvit thread, sorry, but I'm out. No offense ... At the risk of continuing to be one of those userIDs who has just too much to say ...the issue of "bacterial culture" deserves a bit more detail. The product I used is called ZeoBak, but as to, "What bacterial culture was used" ... well ... that's a whole different question. Which specific product is trivia ... it's about the biofilm. And the biofilm ain't proprietary ... The nutrient reduction behavior that I observed was not the result of a proprietary bacteria inoculation, snake-oil potions, or magic rocks. It was the result of the behavior of the entire bacterial guild within the tank ([biofilm composition] + [system environment]). The inoculation of a specific product was but one single component of what is fundamentally a multi-variable process. A meaningful part ... to be sure ... but just one part. I view other aspects as equally (if not more) important as the specific identities of the bacterial strains (... with the notable exception of strain coding for element/compound specific siderophores, and siderophore-like proteins and receptors. This is the aspect which may indeed allow a bacterial strain to be considered as "special"). Aspects like ... ... how mass transfer is taking place in the system. The intensity and pattern of "flow" within an aquarium can exert a profound effect on the pattern(s) of nutrient uptake; ... the presence of a culture vessel (so-called "reactors") which functions to: (a) facilitate bacterial attachment and biofilm formation, and, (b) detach bacterial biomass to make it available for macro-aggregate formation, export (via skimming), filter feeding, and entrapment in coral mucus nets; ... the impact of the periodic pulsing of a bacterial biomass (inoculant) on the composition, metabolic/respiration behavior, and competitive interactions of the biofilm throughout the ecosystem; ... the impact of the periodic pulsing of carbon source(s), nutrients, and vitamins on the metabolic/respiration behavior of the biofilm. JMO ... BTW ... for folks wondering what the heck a "siderophore" is ... Quote:
Chelation, uptake, and intracellular binding of trace metals PEI / CEBIC http://www.princeton.edu/~cebic/chelbindadvanced.html It should also be noted that research has documented siderophore-like protein structures and receptors in marine bacteria which grab other stuff out of the environment. Stuff like ... [drum roll] ... various phosphorous containing compounds. Folks in reefkeeping cyber-spaces post as though cellular growth is the only thing going on with bacterial nutrient export. I would argue that there's a lot more going on. A whole lot more ... JMO ... HTH
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Mesocosm |
#42
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I am on the second page of this thread, but I have to say this is by far the best thread I have ever read on RC. I demand a sticky!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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#43
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One thing I like about Meso, he does not hold back and tells it all
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If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be. |
#44
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A lot of this thread is overwhelming to a non-scientific mind like mine, I'm better with a limited amount of general science and then the practical application to husbandry. Not that I'm complaining about the contents of this thread, I'm just jealous that I can't assimilate it all...
Question about these bacterial filtration systems. I've always wondered why they are dependent on weekly water changes instead of bi-weekly, for example. Do you think it has to do with the oxygen consumption of the bacteria culture? Or just one more means to export the bacterialplankton and the bad stuff they've sucked up from the system? I am trying to research and evaluate whether it's worthwhile to use one of these systems, since I can't imagine ever doing weekly water changes. I'm a bi-weekly kind of person, myself.... |
#45
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Greetings All !
Quote:
JMO ... Quote:
I think most peoples' experience is that these kinds of products are much more "interactive" than the kind of experience that one gets with a straightup Berlin-style system (for example). This was my experience ... I found myself tweaking the manufacturer dosing recommendations within the first two weeks. I enjoy this type of reefkeeping style immensely. It's also perhaps worth noting that I've come across several posts from people who just didn't like this aspect of these kinds of methodology, and it caused them to choose another style for their system. Many ways to skin an Acropora ... Quote:
That being said, there is another "aspect" that has begun to emerge in some discussions during the last year ... so-called ionic or elemental "balance". The notion is that the enhanced bacterial behavior (both growth and respiration) consumes various elements rapidly, and that water changes function to help replenish those elements. There's even a synthetic salt mix out there which claims to lessen the water change requirements by generating "balanced levels". Tragically, such products typically offer no replicable evidence for their marketing claims (see previous post about hard skimmer data). It might also be pointed out that my objections to the failure of manufacturers to present replicable data in support of their marketing hype doesn't demonstrate that their claims are inaccurate. My objection merely highlights the notion that such sales-oriented claims are, at the very least ... ... suspicious. Quote:
JMO ... HTH
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Mesocosm Last edited by mesocosm; 07/20/2007 at 07:12 AM. |
#46
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mesocosm - great thread. One of the reasons I spend most of my online time on RC - there are some people (incl. Boomer and Bertoni) who really knows their stuff and can back it up with scientific explanations and studies performed elsewhere.
My local forums lack this kind of expertise and I really, really appreciate you guys' time and effort sharing knowledge. |
#47
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Hi Meso...thankyou for your response and the tip about searching out terms explanations.
About the weekly water changes, I reviewed the Zeovit Guide yesterday and saw that section about the one particular salt (Reefer's Best) that allegedly reduces the need for water changes to a bi-weekly change of only 5%. The guide said the water change was not to export but to import the needed elements from fresh salt mix--like you said above. This RB brand supposedly is perfectly balanced so that a weekly water change is not needed. I looked at that salt briefly on an online vendor and it was $89 for a large bucket not including shipping. I hate to imagine the shipping costs... I have not heard of this salt before as one of the top tier favored brands. |
#48
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What about this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysogeny_broth http://www.bcm.edu/physio/lab_pages/...protocols.html We are kicking the idea of experimenting with it in a closed aquaria appliction. Tell me what you all think? |
#49
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Greetings All !
This one is a little "heavy", but it highlights some important stuff ... Nitrogen Cycling in Coastal Marine Environments Chapter 11: Nitrate Reduction and Denitrification in Marine Sediments Isao Koike and Jan Sorensen (edited by T. H. Blackburn & J. Sorensen) John Wiley & Sons, Ltd., 1988 http://globalecology.stanford.edu/DG...ke_251-274.pdf Note ... all the direct quotes that follow are from this article. Why am I making a trans-light jump from inorganic carbon dosing to facilitate assimilatory reduction of NO3 and PO4 (remember how all this started? ... hehe ...), to an article on the behavior of bacterial populations in marine sediments ... in pelagic, coastal, and estuarine environments ... in localities ranging from the Western Pacific to the Bering Sea? Because this article highlights the kinds of difficulties we're up against as we try to "translate" the research data into something useable in our aquaria. Putting the differences between "free-living" and attached bacterial populations aside for the moment, a couple of things from the article may be helpful to folks who are just being exposed to this stuff ... Quote:
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... all at the same time ... Quote:
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For folks contemplating a bacterioplankton configuration for their own system ... Thing #4 is important. There is the potential for a significant operational/performance difference between bacterioplankton systems which incorporate a component to generate particulates in the water column ... as compared with the bacterioplankton systems which do not incorporate such a component. Quote:
Which takes me to the next post ... JMO ... HTH Time out ... digressive tangent alert. Anyone remember solbby's post in the SPS Keepers forum a few months ago when he mentioned that some of his bacteria-skimmate experiement results might come across as "controversial"? Look at the quote with thing #3 ... no mention of either Nitrosomonas, or Nitrobacter. From samples taken from the Western Pacific to the Bering Sea ... no direct mention of either Nitrosomonas, or Nitrobacter. Think about it ... Okay ... time in
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Mesocosm |
#50
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Greetings All !
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Remember the Gram Stain of ZeoBak thread? ... ... Even so, I've not seen any specific posts on this, nor have I experimented with LB media myself ... so take this opinion FWIW. As you folks continue your examination of different components, I suspect that at some point you're going to need to consider electron donors, electron acceptors, and strain-specific substrates (apart from the single carbon source variable). JMO ... For what it's worth, this is one of the places where I've spent a lot of time looking at the different sets of potential media formulae: Deutsche Sammlung von Mikroorganismen und Zellkulturen GmbH (German Collection of Microorganisms and Cell Cultures) List of Media Ingredients http://www.dsmz.de/microorganisms/media_list.php But before you go there, you may want to take a moment for a quick review of the Structure and Function of Prokaryotes, Nutrition and Growth of bacteria, Growth of Bacterial Populations, and ... especially ... Regulation and Control of Metabolic Activities sections of this one: Todar's Online Textbook of Bacteriology http://www.textbookofbacteriology.net/ JMO ... HTH
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Mesocosm Last edited by mesocosm; 07/20/2007 at 08:39 PM. |
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