Clarkii Larval Rearing (no rotifers?)

[jnowell]

My Clarkii's have finally paired up and have begun laying eggs regularly. Being as it's the holidays, and I just switched jobs, homes, and towns, I'm wondering something. I read in Joyce Wilkerson's Clownfish book that a large breeder has had success in using pulverized Spirulina to rear larval clownfish.

I like to think outside the box, and try things that are new. Since I just can't start greenwater, rotifer, and brine cultures right now, I figure it can't hurt to give the "no live food" approach a try until I can get everything together enough to do it properly. Since Joyce's book is several years old, I'm hoping someone has tried this and could maybe shed a little light on the subject, or a link or two. A 10% survival rate would still be better than all of them dying in my 100 gallon.

Regardless, I'm going to try it with what I know, and will post my own findings here, but any help would certainly be appreciated. Hatch should happen in the next three days or so. The grow out tank is setup and ready...can't wait until I get to start cleaning it three times a day...Woohoo!

Jason

[jwreffner]

Jason,
I've been looking for info on this too but no one has been too forthcoming here. I have seen Addison's Larval Feed at InlandAquatics and Brine Shrimp Direct has frozen rots and spirulina powder. I have been asking around too for any experiences but haven't heard anything yet.

Anyone tried these???

J

[ediaz]

The thing is that not many people try this, live foods are easier to deal with.

I don't know anybody using spirulina to raise larvae, but I used it when algae was not available at the hatchery. But as an algae substitute not rotifer substitute.



Addison larval feed is a feed in the form of powder developed at the place I used to work. it works to some extent but yields are low and maintenance is high. Basically it is powdered pellets created to satisfy clownfish larvae nutritional needs.

I know a breeder that raises larvae on artemia only, his yields are not so great but are better than raising them on dead foods.

I have seen clownfish hunt for rotifers even graze on rotifers from the tank walls, but never seen larvae ingest dead rotifers.

Good luck,
Ed

[jnowell]

J,
Well, I've never been afraid to be the first, and will also always share any info I collect. I've ordered everything I need (except the time) and will just wing it unless someone jumps in with some good info. At least my success (or more likely, failure) will be documented.

I am planning on starting cultures of green water, rotifers, and brine shrimp within a month or so. The clowns are like clockwork with their eggs, so I'll likely pull 25 or so out of each hatch, and continue experimenting with dry foods until I get something to work.

I'm more interested in the health, size, and longevity of the adults when raised with this method as opposed to ones raised with more natural feeding strategies. Plus maybe I could detail a tried and true method that would be easier for the hobbyist to accomplish. Every captive bred animal sold will should, in theory save a wild animals life! If I get ONE to survive, I'll consider it a success....

I think I should start practice-cleaning my tank, I have a feeling this is going to be messy. If it doesn't work, I'll likely have my own new brand of ammonia based cleaning products

Jason

[jnowell]

Thanks Ed, I can get Artemia cysts locally so I may try that first. These are Clarkii's, so they should be the best candidate for dead foods no? I'm not looking to become a serious breeder, but I am a very serious hobbyist. The thought of bringing a few clownfish back to my LFS for sale would make me feel like I gave a little something back. And even to the serious hobbyist, the live culturing looks like a heck of a lot more work (on my small scale) than twice daily cleanings of a 10 gallon. I'll take it all back if I'm wrong

Seriously though, thanks for the insight, it's good data to know.

[jwreffner]

Jnowell,
That's exactly why I am interested in raising them...to give something back which I have taken.

Make sure you get the San Fransico strain of artemia cysts as they are smaller than the ones from Salt Lake.

[jwreffner]

ediaz,
The Addison's Larval feed was developed at C-Quest. So does that mean you worked there???

Jay

[km133688]

Here is my experience using powdered foods:

I tried using various sizes of golden pearls. I figured nutritionally it was a superior food item. But, if you read the Wilkerson book you will note she said you must pay particular attention to fouling of the water. It is one thing to read this, another to understand it via experiend. I had the following problems:

1) My water would foul in just 3 hours when I was using the powdered foods stuffs. I wasn't around to change water often enough and my fish roow would smell bad every night.

2) The powdered foods wouldn't stay suspended long enough for the fish to eat it; only for 10 of so minutes. The amount of water aggitation needed to keep the food particals suspended even given their small sizes, would kill the larvae.

All this said, here are some options I was going to try:

1) build some cheap kreisel chambers. Basically round fish bowls in a 10g tank. Cover the top of each fishbowl with pantyhose or something like that, that can keep the fish larvae in. This is the tank in a tank method. The basic idea is to create a gentle rolling water flow inside each fishbowl so that everything stays suspended but is not buffeted around. This becomes doable due to the round nature of the bowl and lack of corners.

2) use massive filtration on the 10g. A couple of hots like magnum 250 or some such thing . One with carbon, one with phosban, maybe even one more with a micron cartridge. Because the larvae are kept in the fishbowls, you can do move the neck out of the water in the 10g and nobody cares.

3) use something like the aw-20 aqua lifter pumps and some line splitters to move water in your Kreisel chambers. These look like air pumps but are actually water pumps.

4) use amquel to start, and maybe some antibiotics, and little bit of iodide.

This was where I was headed with my next attempt, but I am waiting on the tomatoes to accomodate me with another brood.

I figure the Kreisels would allow you to reduce the amount of food put into the system because the larvae should find it easier to get to it and you can keep densities higher as you are only putting it in about 1/2 gallon of water, and the HOT filtration takes care of the bad stuff, and the amquel and iodide just solve some icky problems you don't want to have.

Good luck, Kevin

[jnowell]

Thanks Kevin, more good info to add to the pot.

I had about a half-hatch tonight, and gathered about 30 larvae into my rearing tank. I went with a 6 gallon acrylic tank because it had smooth corners. Just an airstone, heater, and digital thermometer in it right now. I used water from my display tank (where the eggs were laid) to fill it, and found a small syphon hose to suck the babies out gently.

They are currently all alive in the rearing tank, I'll try to get more of them tomorrow night when the rest hatch. I probably only had around 100 eggs to start with.

I found a San Fransisco Bay Brine Shrimp hatchery that uises a 2 liter soda bottle and air pump for brine culturing. With Ed's advice, I will probably try the artemia only method. I started a culture tonight, and as soon as they hatch, I'll seperate the shells and try feeding them to the larvae.

The Brine Shrimp kit was only $12.99, and didn't require anything that I didn't already have, so it was do-able. We'll see how it works out. I'm going to add some DT's to the brine culture to try and get some more nutrients in them.

BTW - Can you start a green water culture from DT's? After seeing the brine shrimp kit, I made a similar vesel from a 3 liter Coke bottle, by cutting the bottom off, and using it as a "stand" for the inverted top. I just glued a air hose connector through the bottle top, and it looks like it should work for a green water culture. I guess I'll put some DT's in it, give it some light, and see what happens.

I'll post some pics of this stuff tomorrow evening.

Jason

[jnowell]

OK, drank too much Caffeine doing all of this, so I'm going to post the pics tonight.

Here's the tank where the eggs were laid, 100 gallon w/ 55g sump, guard cat, etc.



And here are the eggs...BTW, Curiosity didn't kill the cat, the aquarium owner did



Here's the Brine Shrimp Hatchery, pardon the "kitchen counter setup", it's temporary.



And my Coke bottle version, maybe this will make the earlier description make sense.



And finally, the rearing tank, the water isn't really that yellow, it's the color of the acrylic, kind of old and dingy, but CHEAP. Who ever heard of raising clownfish on a budget!



I'll cover the tank sides before bed tonight, and hang a light over it in the morning...now I must sleep.

Jason

[ediaz]

ediaz,
The Addison's Larval feed was developed at C-Quest. So does that mean you worked there???

Yes Jay, I worked there and learned from the best...

Ed

[jwreffner]

Ed,
Wow, that's pretty cool! You learn something everyday!

Jay

[jnowell]

OK, time to poke fun at the newbie.....I laughed at myself, so I figured I'd share. My "half-hatch" last night was..uh, shrimp I think. All the clownfish eggs were still there when I got up the next morning. Too Funny, today, all my CLOWNFISH eggs had silver tips, so maybe tonight I can capture the real thing

I have pairs of cleaner shrimp and peppermint shrimp, so I'm guessing that's what I caught. They look like fry, but usually just hang out "head down" near the top of the water.

Yeah....I know what I'm doing....can you tell??

Jason

[jwreffner]

Jason,
Just wait...I am going to be starting to breed clown soon. I'm sure I will do plenty of stupid things too It comes w/ the territory.

Jay

[jnowell]

Well, I stayed up last night and collected 3, yes count them, 3 clownfish larvae. They are much bigger than I was expecting, probably 4-5 mm each. I'm home waiting on the UPS man to bring my live Rotifer and MicroAlgae cultures, plus Roti-Rich, Microalgae grow, brine shrimp net, rotifer strainer, etc. The shipping was more than the order!!!

I collected some 3 liter bottles last night, and have constructed a microalgae culture station. I also purchased a 10 gallon setup on sale at my LFS for the rearing tank. I guess I'll convert the dingy acrylic tank into a continuous rotifer culture tank. My plan is to start a 4-5 bottle rotating rotifer culture, with the tank holding spares for when I screw up

I'll continue documenting everything here from a "newbies" standpoint.

Jason

[jwreffner]

Sounds good...keep me posted! I'm several months out from getting all the equipment I need (including my cinnamon clowns).

[jacob30]

Hey that is funny about the shrimp you collected on the 14th. I also did the exact same thing once

Good luck!

Are all the eggs gone? What was your collection method?

[jnowell]

Got about 15 more last night, still about 75% of the eggs left, dang near all of them have silver eyes now, so with any luck, the rest will hatch tonight.

For collection I used a coffee cup and the blue moon lights. About 5 minutes after the timer kicks the lights out, I shut down the sump returns, and all the power heads except the one that moves the eggs constantly. Then I just wait...of course, now I wait for things with orange spots where their belly should be. I've seen more of the strangest stuff while waiting for clownfish fry. I used to watch my tank at night a lot when I first got it, but haven't in a while. I added 10 lbs. of GARF Grunge about 4 months ago, and things are a lot different now.

BTW - I got my order from Florida Aqua Farms, so I started batch microalgae and Rotifer culture systems last night. I'll post some pics of the "budget aquaculture table" later. It really is amazing what you can do with an air pump and some old Coke bottles. At first, I was looking for a way to avoid all this live food culturing, now I'm sort of enjoying it...it's all about the journey I guess.

Jason

[rogerwells]

that sounds so awesome...i wish i could start breeding right now instead of waiting half a year to a year...and you definetly have to show pictures of your cheap 2 liter bottle stuff...cause i want to spend the least amount possible

[Worldwithin]

I too have started in the realm of rearing fry, and let me tell you some of the "errors" that I have come across. Initially, I tried the no live food method as my first batch of eggs took me by surprise. I was able to only keep them alive to about day three and that was probably due to their yolk sac. Batch 1 perished.

Batch 2, I lost almost all of them on day one due to transfer damage.

Batch 3, I managed to keep them until day 15, but messed up because I ran out of baby brine shrimp to feed to them. Due to this fact, they ran out of food the day before I was able to hatch some more.

I have found that rotifer cultures are rather easy to keep if you spend some time on them daily, and harvest almost half of them daily to avoid it crashing. I feed them a continuous drip of IA Rotifer Diet 3600 and have had nothing but success with it. My first rotifer colony crashed rather quickly by not following a somewhat regimented routiene. My current routiene consists of harvesting, feeding, adding some ammonia lock, and partial water changes periodically. I do not recommend batch feeding as I also feel that is what crashed my previous culture.

The greenwater thing just looked like it would take too much time to do to avoid contamination. I found that it was just easier to pick up the IA for that. A year's supply of high density algae at a good price. Granted I live near Reed Mariculture's distribution facility, so the shipping wasn't necessary.

I did find it annoying that I had to do daily brine hatches for them, hence me running out of food quickly. I recently picked up from BSD their shell-free eggs, but have yet to hatch them because I am waiting for batch 4 to hatch this comming Tuesday. I have had other batches hatch, but no collection because I just want to get one batch through before I try multiple batches at a time.

Anyhow, be careful with the rotifers, they can go south quickly if you don't pay attention to them.

Good luck, and I hope this is as rewarding for you as it is for me so far!!!

[Worldwithin]

Oh, be really careful with the lighting on the fry tank. I did end up blacking out all 4 sides (unlike Joyce's book) as well as using a colored piece of acrylic to cover the top to filter out some of the light. It seemed to work rather well for Batch 3.

[jnowell]

Thanks for thew tips WW, I am batch culturing green wwater and rotifers right now, and did a test run on some brine shrimp just to make sure I had the process down.

It's funny, I've had no trouble at all out of my greenwater, but have lost one of my batch cultures of Rotifers already. I had tried to start a greenwater culture by adding some DT's and Miracle Grow to some dechlorinated tap water. It didn't grow, so I thought i'd add some rotifers to it, they quickly died. My guess is that rotifers and Miracle Grow don't mix.

I got about 50 fry out last night with my coffee cup scoop method, and only lost one in the transfer. I fear i will loose several more over the next day or two though. There is a significant size and activity difference in them. The larger ones seem to be eating, swimming, and quite happy. The smaller they get, the less energy that appear to have, and probably ten or so don't appear to be feeding at all. Starting with only about 50 fry, I'm not sure I'll get any to survive.

One thing I'm doing is feeding the heck out of my mated pair, in hopes of getting healthier fry on the next batch. I alternate between Mysis shrimp, live Brine from my test culture, Formula One flakes, and Aqua-Dyne. I'm feeding three times a day also. I hope this helps, so far my 100g water has held up to the increase in nutrients, but I'm keeping a close eye on it.

I'll post some pics in a few.

Jason

[Worldwithin]

One thing that I noticed with my first batch was that there were a number of them that came out substantially smaller than the others. Almost sliver like rather than fry like. This seemed to completely fix itself by the time batch 2 came to hatch. Since then, I have yet to see any of the "thin" larvae in any of the subsequent batches. I don't think I changed any of my feeding habits for this to occur. I guess the first one is a trial for them too!

[jnowell]

That's good to know. Maybe by the next hatch, I'll be ready too. I'm starting to doubt whether or not I'm going to be able to make enough rotifers for them. They deplete the rearing tank fairly quickly, and my cultures are gradually thinning also. I'm starting a continous culture right now, but can only afford to stock it to maybe 5-7 per mil. Do more cultures beget more rotifers, or am I simply spreading them out?

Thanks for the help, it is much appreciated. Camera batts are just about charged, so once i get the new rotifer tank going, I'll post some pics.

J

[jnowell]

OK, here's the pics of the setup so far. Budget clownfish 101, or should i call it "When Breakfast Nooks Go Bad". Thank goodness I'm single right now, no woman would ever tolerate this

Here's the whole room


And the greenwater, tell me I don't feel like a mad scientist sitting in front of this!


Here's the batch rotifer cultures...the middle front is the one I killed by using DT's and Miracle Grow. Left front is good, tall one in back is good, other two were just started this evening.


The rearing tank - simple 10 gallon, all 4 sides blocked out with cardboard and black packing tape. Hood is usually off, but I'm seeing how they respond to one 15w mogul type 50/50 PC. The 10g next to it is the continuous rotifer culture that I just started.


Here's a group shot, don't put it past me to print one of these and frame it on my desk at work. I am a proud, but nervous papa.


Here's an attempt at a closeup, with the water, reflections, etc. this proved to be more difficult than I thought.


If nothing else, I'll be prepared for the next batch. Sure would be cool if some of these would survive though. I'll do my best.

J