Third attempt raising clownfish...

[Kathy55g]

Just heard from my friend, and the parent clownfish spawned again yesterday. This time I'll pick up eggs on Day 8 instead of waiting for Day 9 and possibly missing the hatch. So I have a week to get ready, and I already have 2 gallons of rotifers and lots of phyto.

I'll post some pix of the set-up later.

Cheers, (I am so excited!)

Kathy

[spk]

Good luck with this hatch.
watching with interest.

What quantity did you start off with the rots to get to 2 gallons?

Thanks

Steve

[Kathy55g]

a couple of months ago I started with a tiny vial of rotifer cycsts from Florida Aqua farms. I thought they were not doing too well for about 3 weeks, and then they took off! They double every day if I feed them enough. I have kept this batch going for a couple of months, so it is hard to know what the starting quantity was.

How many rots you got now? I now have 2 gallons at 150 per ml.

[Kathy55g]

And i have a week to get to 4 gallons. Even if they don't double every day, I should get there with ease.

[Kathy55g]

Here are my culturing shelves. The shelves are WalMart plastic, less than 10$ each. Good enough.
Top shelf is for pumps and small bottles of dechlorinator and fertilizer, knick knacks, etc.


Next shelf with the shop light is for phytoplankton. I have nanochloropsis on there now.


Third shelf stores bottles of chlorinated 20ppt salt water. Recently, it finally dawned on me that I can recycle my water change water. I filter the water I pull out of my display to remove algae and poop detritus through a paper towel (water I would usually pour down the toilet) and dilute it to 20 ppt. I just add 1 ml bleach per gallon and siphon into my bottles until they are 2/3 full, cap and store until use. The effectively sterilizes the bottle and the water at the same time.

Every day I add dechlorinator to one bottle, shake, add 14 drops Micro Algae Grow from FAF and ripe phyto to fill. Bubble away until next week. Takes less than 10 minutes.

Bottom shelf has gallon milk jugs of rotifers and set ups for brine shrimp. The lights are the discarded NO lights from my 55 gallon display.

gang valves are easy to attach by drilling holes and using zip ties>

[Kathy55g]

More things that make this fun:
My microscope that was going to be thrown away at work.

toys:

tools. How do you like my washing machine lab bench? There is a sink to the right that I spend a lot of time at....

Got that little pitcher at the hospital after I gave birth to one of my kids. Sorry, guys, you can't buy it in stores!
The 53 micron rotifer filter is indispensable. I used to use paper coffee filters, but this is much faster and more reliable. That other thing is a plastic coffee filter, got it at a grocery store, and it is the right size for baby brine shrimp.

[Kathy55g]

You asked about rotifers.
I learned that I have to pay attention to the concentration of the rotifers, and to keep them fed well, and then they multiplly readily.

Still working out a few things. Some say you should add a little of the old culture water to a new jug when you are starting one. I found that after a while of doing this, I got a culture of ciliates and the rotifers slowed down. Ciliates, at least I think they were ciliates, are bigger than a phytoplankton, and a lot smaller than a rotifer (microscope came in real handy). And they swim really fast.

When I restarted the rotifers after filtering out the ciliates, the rots multiplied like crazy and were fine. I may not do that add old culture water thing again.

I have not used roti-rich or brewers yeast or V8. Just Nanochloropsis. If I run out of nano, I'll probably use yeast to maintain the rots, and phyto to enrich before feeding the rots to the larvae.

I tried V8 once with a small quantitiy of rots, and I think it killed all the rotifers, they certainly did not thrive. Probably, I did it wrong. It seems like more work than just my routine phyto culture.

Hope this helps. Sorry my descriptions are a little cryptic. My daughter is godzilla right now, and I'm a little distracted!

[Kathy55g]

spk, are you doing batch or continuous culture? If continuous, just keep adding phytoplankton as the rots consume it, and you should be fine. Don't forget to siphon clean the bottom almost daily.

If you are doing gallon batches ala milk jugs as I do, pour off a quarter of your full gallon to a new jug, and feed both jugs with phytoplankton until the water is light green. Bubble for a day and add more phyto tomorrow. When the jug is full, pour off a quarter (25% harvest) into a new jug or supplement a partially filled jug and feed all jugs with more phyto. After 3-5 days or when you notice a lot of gunk on the bottom of a jug, harvest the whole bottle, and throw out the stuff on the bottom. Filter the rots to remove them from their polluted media, and put3/4 of them into a clean jug with a couple of liters of dechlorinated 20ppt saltwater, feed with phyto. Put the other fourth of rotifers into a new jug, or feed your tank or supplement a partially filled jug.

I found I can recycle gunky jugs by filling them with water and 1 ml bleach and soaking them this way overnight. Next day rinse and dechlorinate and good to go.

It takes another 10 minutes a day to keep rotifers going. After initial set up costs, growing this live food costs:






nothing.

well, perhaps tap water for keeping things clean.

I bought micro-algae grow, the smallest bottle will last a long time, and dechlorinator I got for free from IMAC--vendors giving it away. I can't decide if it was free or cost 300$, my expenses at IMAC.:-)



Bleach, I suppose is an expense.



In other words, this whole thing is appealingly cheap!

Cheers,
Kathy

[spk]

Kathy,

Wow, thanks for your responses.

Right now I am toying with continuous, I am growing both copeopods as well as rots, in seperate containers. Primarliy to see what the rate of growth etc is like.

Here in the UK, I have struggled this year with phyto. I seem to be able to get the first culture to take, but subsequent cultures just never go any further. I know that in the area, I am not the only one to struggle so. However on my last trip to the US I got three phyto cultures from Florida Aqua Farms, and I hope that this will improve my success. Out of curiosity what salt do you use?

I will be switching the rots over to Wine Demi-jons, I have 4 of these in total, so will see how these progress.

I will keep this culture of Rots on continuous for a while, increase my phyto production so that I have at least 2l ready per day, either for rot feeding or tank feeding, then I will turn on the rots production.

I am also interested in how you culture your rots, do you aerate, as mine are just ticking over by the window. I feed them about 100ml of phyto daily in two feeds and they are just clearing the water when I need to feed again.

I noticed that I also do not have a pure rot culture, as there are some copeopods in there too. These are not an issue as apparently they can co-exist. Just extra pods for future use.

I like the workbench and the tools that you have available. I too use a refractometer and have a PH meter that is real handy. What is the other toy that you have next to the refractometer?

Thanks for all the information and I will update you as I progress.

Steve

[Kathy55g]

Originally posted by spk
Kathy,

Wow, thanks for your responses.

Right now I am toying with continuous, I am growing both copeopods as well as rots, in seperate containers. Primarliy to see what the rate of growth etc is like.

Here in the UK, I have struggled this year with phyto. I seem to be able to get the first culture to take, but subsequent cultures just never go any further. I know that in the area, I am not the only one to struggle so. However on my last trip to the US I got three phyto cultures from Florida Aqua Farms, and I hope that this will improve my success. Out of curiosity what salt do you use?

I used to struggle with phyto, until someone here advised me to use bleach to sterilize the bottles and saltwater. The formula is 1 ml of liquid chlorine bleach to 1 gallon=3.7851 liters, so 1 ml to 4 liters should work. I mix it up, put into bottles and store them until use. I also bleach the rigid airline tubing, and the drilled bottle cap. Just before use, I add 2ml per gallon (US) or (~4 L) of a tap water dechlorinator like Prime. I don't know if the bleach and dechlorinator are the same composition where you are. You will have to do the math if it is not, to figure out how much to add of each thing.

After I started using bleach, I had no probems with culturing phyto, and I've been at it for several months now. Very occasionally, I have a bacteria bloom in one of the phyto bottles, and I just feed it right away to the rots. I figure bacteria are nutritious, too, and since the rots will be filtered in a couple of days anyway, the bacteria will go away.

I now use 20 ppt saltwater. I have at various times used Oceanic, Instant Ocean, and Corallife, with no discernable difference. I no longer care to use Oceanic in my display tank, so I used up what I had left for the phyto culture. Then I got some Instant Ocean at the IMAC conference, another $300 freebee, and I used some of that. Now I use the recycled display tank water, which has been Corallife for a long time. It all works for me.

I will be switching the rots over to Wine Demi-jons, I have 4 of these in total, so will see how these progress.

I will keep this culture of Rots on continuous for a while, increase my phyto production so that I have at least 2l ready per day, either for rot feeding or tank feeding, then I will turn on the rots production.

I am also interested in how you culture your rots, do you aerate, as mine are just ticking over by the window. I feed them about 100ml of phyto daily in two feeds and they are just clearing the water when I need to feed again.

I do have an air pump and an airline attached to rigid airline tubing going into the rotifer jugs. The bubbles are set to go more slowly than the phyto aeration. Too much turbulance is not good for rots, but some is good to keep everything in suspension including the phyto. I have them in milk jugs which are not clear, but are free, and since I'm cheap, I use them. Having clear jugs would allow more light penetration so the phyto that does not get consumed right away would continue to grow. I haven't noticed an increased need for additions of phyto since I started using the opaque jugs, and I still use a fluorescent light to culture the rots. 16 hours on, 8 hours off. They are on the same timer as the phyto.

Are wine Demi-Jons clear? if so, it would be better.

I noticed that I also do not have a pure rot culture, as there are some copeopods in there too. These are not an issue as apparently they can co-exist. Just extra pods for future use.

I like the workbench and the tools that you have available. I too use a refractometer and have a PH meter that is real handy. What is the other toy that you have next to the refractometer?

I work in a science research lab and that thing is a pipet that was destined for the trash, just like that old dissecting microscope. It is an old model pipet, and some say it is so hard to use that it makes their hands hurt. We are so safety conscious these days that my company would rather spend a lot of money replacing with new models that are easier on the hands, than deal with health issues of employees. I liberated it.

With it, I can sample 0.1 ml of rotifer soup, put the 0.1 ml in a petrie dish, count the rotifers at the microscope, multiply by 10, and that is the number of rotifers per ml. Very helpful.

Thanks for all the information and I will update you as I progress.

Steve

It is a pleasure, Steve, good luck to you, and please seek out other information too. I am new to this and am by no means an expert.

[Kathy55g]

CORRECTION:
The plastic coffee filter is too porous for newly hatched baby brine shrimp. I recently started practicing decapsulation techniques, filtered the first hatch thru this plastic coffee filter, and although it captured most of the babies, some got through. I may have to use the rotifer screen for this. Or part with some more money to get a slightly larger pore screen than 53 microns.

[spk]

Kathy,

Thanks for the quick response.

Yes the demi-jons are clear glass bottles, which I think wil be jsut right for the rots. These were given to me free so I am quite happy there.

For the phyto, I use 2l soda bottles, with 3 boys there is a plentyful supply of these. I too have drilled the caps with holes, one for the rigid airline and the other as a breathing hole.

I have been reading and talking to all sorts of people on this subject at the moment so there is lots of information around. I glad that you and I are talking as it means that I am talking to some one who is doing it now.

That microscope of yours is cool and it must be handy.

I will give the bleach a try and see if that solves my problems. Just to get it straight in my mind, you add 1ml of bleach to a gallon of water from your tank and let it stand for a couple of days. Then you add 2ml of dechlorinator before you start the culture. Does this work for the rots and the phyto?


Thanks for taking the time to chat.

Steve

[spk]

Kathy,

Sorry nother question. With so much phyto growing to you feed phyto to your tank too and if so what quantity?

Thanks

Steve

[ediaz]

Hello Kathy,

What nice cultures you got!

to remove algae and poop detritus

good to know where all that detritus comes from...




I use the same filter for artemia, have not noticed any going thru.
Keep an eye on the washer, rust, I know...
And keep the nano disk away from the ligth until ready to use.

used to struggle with phyto, until someone here advised
me to use bleach to sterilize

There's some very smart people in this forum...




Best of luck, hope everyting goes great this time

Ed

[Kathy55g]

Originally posted by ediaz
Hello Kathy,

What nice cultures you got!

There's some very smart people in this forum...
Ed

Yeah, and some nice helpful people in this forum, too.

Thanks Ed!

[Kathy55g]

Originally posted by spk
Kathy,


I will give the bleach a try and see if that solves my problems. Just to get it straight in my mind, you add 1ml of bleach to a gallon of water from your tank and let it stand for a couple of days. Then you add 2ml of dechlorinator before you start the culture. Does this work for the rots and the phyto?


Thanks for taking the time to chat.

Steve

Yes, I add bleach to the water, siphon into bottles, cap, shake up to coat all surfaces, and store on shelf until use, at least overnight.

Then as needed, take a bottle, add dechlorinator at 2 times the volume of bleach in the BOTTLE (not the gallon. One gallon = 3.7851 liters, a 2 liter bottle is approx 1/2 gallon, but I fill mine only 2/3 full, so basically, I add 16 drops dechlorinator, or 3/4 ml ) Sorry, you have to do the math for your situation.

Cap, shake, and use as needed to cuture either phyto or rots. If you are worried about not dechlorinating enough, you can use those cheap test strips for chlorine we have in aquarium stores here. Once I tested a couple of times, I knew the volumes were correct, so I no longer test.

For phyto, I add 14 drops micro agae grow and top off with 1/3 bottle ripe phyto. Apply air. Harvest in approximately one week.

Good luck.

[Kathy55g]

Originally posted by spk
Kathy,

Sorry nother question. With so much phyto growing to you feed phyto to your tank too and if so what quantity?

Thanks

Steve

when I'm not culturing rots, I do feed my tank, and I give some to local friends.

I also store it in the refridgerator until my family complains or I need more for rotifers.
Cheers,
Kathy

[Luis A M]

Nice thread Kathy,and you´re doing things right!
FAF sells a pitcher matching their rots collector.
Recycling used water is interesting.You save on salt and perhaps you can spare fertilizer.Except for the vitamins,used water must have enough NO3,PO4,and trace elements.I found in the past that this is the best way to obtain a ciliate culture,but I wasn´t chlorinating then
It´s easy to make a diy dechlorinator,will tell if somebody needs it.
As you are raising "L"rots (B.plicatilis)the small fast bugs could be males.Check for a bright spot.
I don´t think you need to light your rots/bs.You could spare some watts there .Have you considered sun light?.
Raising your own phyto,and zoo plankton is easy,fun and the right way to go to experiment and find new techniques.
In another forum,somebody was severely criticized by the moderator for suggesting that home cultured Phyto was better than commercial DT.

[Kathy55g]

I've been following that thread, Luis. I agree that home culture is not better than DT's -- its different. DT's has no fertilizer residue, except for the minerals the phyto has consumed. It has 3 kinds of phyto and some diatoms. It has a cold shelf life that is decent. A lot of research and thought went into this product. It is a good product. It is, however, not what I need.

I need a very very cheap way to feed rots to feed potential future hopefully baby fish.
Fresh is good, I think, and from what I have read, and I get fresh from my home culture. And as I mentioned before, home culture is very appealingly cheap!

I also think DT's can raise rots, and they might be better rots, but they would be very, very expensive rots.

I think the best application for DT's, and this is what most folks use it for, is to feed phyto-consuming inverts in the display tank.

[Kathy55g]

Originally posted by Luis A M
Nice thread Kathy,and you´re doing things right!

Thanks!

FAF sells a pitcher matching their rots collector.

You mean I didn't have to have a baby to get one? Darn!

Recycling used water is interesting.You save on salt and perhaps you can spare fertilizer.Except for the vitamins,used water must have enough NO3,PO4,and trace elements.I found in the past that this is the best way to obtain a ciliate culture,but I wasn´t chlorinating then

Somehow I managed to obtain a ciliate culture anyway. I still add the same amount of fertilizer f/2 that I did before I used recycled tank water. My nitrates on display tank water are 0.

It´s easy to make a diy dechlorinator,will tell if somebody needs it.

I am all ears, err eyes! Please tell!

As you are raising "L"rots (B.plicatilis)the small fast bugs could be males.Check for a bright spot.

I think I've seen males in the culture. They look like smaller versions of the females and swim very fast. These things I think were ciliates were even smaller, and swam with a different path pattern. At 40x, I could barely see them.

Are the bright spots on the male rotifers or the ciliates?

I don´t think you need to light your rots/bs.You could spare some watts there .Have you considered sun light?.

Haven't thought about sunlight. My setup is in the basement, and there aren't any good windows. I suppose I could set something up upstairs, but then I may have interference from my kids, and it would not be as convenient. I may do it anyway, someday. It's a good idea.

...right way to go to experiment and find new techniques.

Or learn old techniques.
.

Thanks for the comments Luis! Tell me about the dechlorinator!

[spk]

Some interesting thought there folks.
I do not believe that we get DT's here in the UK, but it is far cheaper to grow your own and educational to for the kids.

Luis, tell us more or show us more please.

Learning all the time about what techniques are being used, have been used and ehat has worked or not.

Thanks for all the comments.
Steve

[Luis A M]

Kathy,

DT,IA and home grown.

Well it is a lengthy subject and I don´t feel like going into that debate .Which phyto is better?.Yes,it depends on what you need it for;reef tank,growing clams,rots,copepods or green water technique.

In a nutshell,the "best "phyto is a mix of different species offering a DHA/EPA/ARA similar to natural phyto.A blend of NAN and T-ISO gives a decent proportion,as T-Iso is high in DHA while NAN is rich in EPA (but poor in DHA).DT does not give that,but it still is a practical and convenient product.



Old techniques?

Why,fresh new developments .Nobody has ever raised many of the species we are dealing with now,or kept corals,or raised calanoid copepods .This part of the hobby is very cutting edge,and new things show all the time.It is challenging and that makes it fascinating!



Sunlight

Well,some greenhouse window,or a high shelf (childproof) by a south looking window.



Rots males

They don´t look like rots,they are small and fast,and sometimes circle the females like bumblebees.They have a bright "eyespot"



Recipe

Get some distilled water.Buy sodium thiosulfate in a chemical store.Check how much Cl per L your house bleach has.Say it is 55 grams /L.Now weigh 55grams of Sodium thio.and mix it in 1 L of dist.water.Ready!

Now if you put say 1ml of bleach,you dechlorinate it with 1 ml of your diy preparation,always same volume.Voila!

[FFFrog]

I've been thinking of trying to do phyto in a southern window. Anyone doing this.

[Kathy55g]

Originally posted by Luis A M
Kathy,


Recipe

Get some distilled water.Buy sodium thiosulfate in a chemical store.Check how much Cl per L your house bleach has.Say it is 55 grams /L.Now weigh 55grams of Sodium thio.and mix it in 1 L of dist.water.Ready!

Now if you put say 1ml of bleach,you dechlorinate it with 1 ml of your diy preparation,always same volume.Voila!

I have looked into doing just that. Sigma chemical company is based right here in St. Louis, my home town. Believe it or not, it is cheaper to buy Sodium thiosulphate from Florida Aqua Farms, than from Sigma!

I did buy a bunch shortly before going to IMAC. Right now I don't need it because I have so much "free" sample dechlorinator from vendors at IMAC.

Thanks again, Luis!

[Kathy55g]

I did try to culture a disk of T-iso with no luck whatsoever. Got any tips on that Luis, or Edgar, or anyone?