"ALL FISH HAVE ICH" Fact or Theory

[gary faulkner]

Triggerfish,

Steven Pro,

Freed,

Some people will believe anything and no amount of science will
change their minds. I appreciate what you are trying to get across to these folks but I believe you are just wasting your time.
Sorry.

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by Jeffie
You can take a healthy fish that has been thru the treatments to erradicate crypto and move him to a stressful situation and more then likely the fish will end up with ick again

can you elaborate on this just a bit. Either you're not understanding what crypto is or i'm not just understanding what you're trying to say here.

1. Are you saying: once the fish has been cured based on an understanding of what that should mean and is placed into a stressful system that contains c.irritans; the fish more then likely will end up with ich again?
I agree with the side note (the system does not have to be stressful as stress is not a prerequisite for infestation) but that's not the scope of this thread.

2. Or are you saying: once cured and placed into a stressful system that is not suspected of containing c.irritans; the fish more then likely will end up with ich again?
based on my understanding of the documentation published and what i have observed for 10 yrs, I do not agree with that.
You would need to shed some light on how the fish would have contracted the c.irritans?

Originally posted by Jeffie
there's many reasons why ick gets set off.

there's only 1 reason that is scientifically known and it's called the Quadriphasic life cycle of the c.irritan. do you understand what that is? Well...basically, in your own words it's "why ick gets set off".

They basically hatch from a cycst after they are produced, the number produced is strain dependent.
So.. if the cysts are not in the aquarium..then nothing can hatch..surely that makes sense..right?

Originally posted by Jeffie
In a properly maintained healthy system you should never see it.

Well... i find that to be correct only if the parasite is not present. however, there are other variables that are not in the scope of this thread that can make it difficult to know that it's there and whereas it's not easily noticed.

Originally posted by Jeffie
Doesn't mean that once you put a fish thru the treatment and erradicated the pest that it will never come back because it can.

unclear on what you're exactly saying here again. if you're saying all fish have ich no matter what, then
I'm still waiting on the elaboration that would scientifically explain how this phenomenon you mention would naturally occur?

EDIT: Gary,,just saw your post.. funny thing was i was going to ask if i should not bother anymore trying to discuss this.
I'm really just looking for some elaboration of their thoughts based on any kind of logic...or maybe there is something i'm just not aware of and am on a quest for answers.

[Triggerfish]

Hey kass..

Originally posted by kass03
The fish seemed to get every disease there was about 2 weeks after including ich although I think it was maybe velvet.

i'm going to think probably unlikely, as most times once velvet is noticed it's too late for treatment effectiveness.
my 1st tank got wiped out by this.. happened quick.

Originally posted by kass03


Anyway after that every summer my blue hippo would seem to get ich when the temps went up.

The life cycle of c.irritans is temp dependent. in cooler waters they take longer to hatch. hight temps speeds up that part of the cycle and can become increasingly noticeable more often.
not exactly sure, but could very well be directly related regarding noticing the parasite more as you mentioned.

it is my understanding that high temps alone will not produce c.irritans if the cysts are not already present in the system. basically if your understanding is your hippo always had them but they were only visible in warmer waters then how would that explain the Trophont (feeding) stage of the parasite?
it must feed off the fish to reproduce, as it feeds and matures it becomes visible where it is located on the fish host. it then releases to continue the cycle.
lmk if you don't think this makes sense.

Originally posted by kass03

The ich would go away on it's own. Sometimes I treated with Sano and sometimes not.

well,, from what you have mentioned above..it doesn't sound like the parasite ever left your system as the hippo would shows evidence of the parasite at other times. not familiar with that product.

Originally posted by kass03

None of my other fish in that tank including the clown, flame angel, coral beauty, kole tang etc. ever got ich.

never got ich that you have noticed,,it is sometimes not easy to see it during each cycle. although not out of the usual that a hippo, due to it's skin structure, would be the host of choice for a light c.irritan population. again,,just stating possibilities here.

Originally posted by kass03
In all my years of keeping SW I've seen fish many times get ich and be the only 1 in the tank to get it and recover from it on their own.

As long as the fish is healthy enough to keep it away from its gills it can survive multiple cycle attacks. as the population enhances it becomes increasingly more difficult to avoid. once in the gills the fish slowly suffocates. i believe that's how fish normally succumb.

Originally posted by kass03

I'm one of the believers that it's present on a fish or in the tank all the time and comes out from stress.

can you define stress as it would relate to your system?
you mentioned the temp increase..by how much was it? and it only stressed the hippo according to you, correct?
what other stressors did your system exhibit over the years that you can remember allowed you to notice the parasite on the fish?
also, what stresses did you have where you did not notice the parasite on the fish,,if any?

when you say "comes out" what exactly do you mean by that?
Do you mean literally coming out of the fishes body to continue the lifecycle and falling to the substrate to form a cyst to reproduce?

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by J4Life
I have read that Ich is actually already present within all fish same as the cells that cause cancer in humans. Whether a fish gets Ich has to do with certain factors that cause the cells to transform into Ich and become active.

Bill, very interested in seeing any reference you can dig up where you read that phenomenon. not trying to be difficult,,but just want to understand how that happens. thanks..

[MarkO]

Trigger, problem solved on Boston Reefers:
http://216.235.242.50/forums/showthread.php?t=28418

[Triggerfish]

[QUOTE=zemuron114]"I believe ICH is always present. I do not think there is a way to completely eradicte it. You could QT a fish for months on end and keep a fallow tank for months on end, and if you introduce the fish in QT and it gets sick for some reason, that fish will get ich."

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if the tank has been fallow for an extended period known to eradicate the parasite, the new fish has been quarantined for an extended time with no visible spots ever noticed and no behavioral indication that the fish was hosting; where would the parasite come from to attack the fish once it got sick?

[kass03]

When I said "comes out" I just meant you can see white spots on the fish.

I was'nt trying to start a debate just saying what I've seen in my years of keeping SW.
How would anyone know if they're tank was ich free in the first place? You can have fish for years without getting ich and yet it could pop up anytime without adding anything live to the tank.

I just meant the stress from the temp going up.
I always kept my tanks at 76F but in the summer I did'nt use to have A/C and they could get up to 83 sometimes.
I rarely add new fish to my 150 because most of the fish Ive had in there for over 6 years.
The only new addition was the blue hippo about 2 yrs ago.

As far as thinking the tank had velvet I do believe that's what they had that time. I had a near wipeout and could'nt believe the damsel died but the hippo made it.
I was desperate and tried alot of crappy products which I won't name
Most people have never heard of the Sano product I used.
If I talk about it theres usually more debate lol as if it works.
Ive used it for yrs and believe it does. It's expensive though and I havent bought any for over a yr so not sure if it's even for sale anymore.
My LFS had me try it once and then I got it from the manufacturer after that ( I think it's a guy in his basement hehe).
It's supposedly some herbal thing that does'nt harm anything including bacteria.
Ive used it many times in my reef without anything bad ever happening at all and my tank has everything as far as corals and inverts. You can even use it once a week for maintenance.
It's the only product I will ever put in my reef again.
That's all I'll say I'm not trying to sell it lol nobody ever believes me anyway.

kass

[Freed]

If you would have QTd you would have been able to stop the velvet in the first place before introducing it to the main tank and then you wouldn't have had the issue, no?

[BTTRFLYGRL]

I do not believe ich is always present on the fish or in ones tank....Ich does not lie dormant on the fish, I have never read this anywhere but on these forums.
If you qt and treat [if necessary] all new fish , ich will never make an appearance in your main and no amount of stress will cause an outbreak if there is no ich present.
I don't believe that people whose fish have an 'occasional 'outbreak of ich are actually dealing with ich at all. I have dealt with ich , recently with a Hippo and a Whiteface Tang..Both were in qt..I feed them well, use vitamins. I can assure you, had I not treated them with hypo, they would have died..My Whiteface has had other issues since.. I cannot get an exact diagnosis unless I do a skin scrap and look under a microscope...that's a little much for me I treated with various meds and to this day he still has very small 'pimple' spots on him..The other fish are fine. I believe this is a Microspordian or Myxospordian infection of which their is no cure. I believe he also had at one time either flukes or copepods [formalin dips eradicated this] There are other parasites that appear as white spots such as Trichodonella [sp?] and a few others. I think because ich is so common, people just assume that is what they are dealing with.

Ich is easy to eradicate, some others are not so easy [flukes] If ich appears in the main, remove the fish, treat with copper or hypo and let the main go fallow for at least 6 weeks. QT all new fish....problem solved...ich is gone

[Freed]

Agreed. Now hopefully those naysayers who are misinformed will join the bandwagon instead of leaving their fishs outcome to fate rather than accepted data and known biology/science.

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by BTTRFLYGRL
I don't believe that people whose fish have an 'occasional 'outbreak of ich are actually dealing with ich at all.

here's a testimonial to the above statement..
since i am an 'ich eradicator' i check my fish 5 times a day for indications of the parasite. recently, upon visually viewing my redhead wrasse, i noticed a "white spot" on a lower fin.. i stared at the thing for a bit of time... not exactly sure what it could be, sure enough within the short time frame i was staring at it, it disappeared. gone just like that.. was it an engorged trophont that just released,,well perhaps..but more than likely,,,yes,,it was a grain of sand..