Possible to kick ich in a reef tank?

[dkeller]

I'd remove the fish to QT for at least a month (The minimum life cycle of the parasite) and treat with hypo salinity and lights off. A fresh water dip every couple of days will also help. Try to avoid copper if you can since copper sulfate kills the natural bacteria in the Tangs digestive tract, which in turn causes other problems.

There are lots of opinions out there, but IME the only way to really get rid of ich is to cure the fish away from the tank and let nature clean up the rest. The parasite has a four stage life cycle and you can only kill during the time it's free swimming and looking for a host. The rest of the time it's either in the fish or on the bottom of your tank. BTW, once you see the cysts on the fish it's had the parasite for some time. The cyst is the last thing to appear before the parasite reproduces.

A lot of people have had repeated experience curing ich with garlic and other such things, but if it was really working would they have been able to "prove" it works more than once? IMHO.

[Gobie]

I have twenty fish in my 180 and never treated any of them for ich. They get the occasional speck here and there but I never lost a fish because of it. I have four cleaner gobies (neon gobies).

[Paul B]

Unfortunately, cleaner shrimp, garlic, gobies, UV sterilizers and grenades will not effect ich one bit. You can try all of the above though. Hopefully, in time your fish will be healthy enough to be immune to ich but since that is not the case you are going to have to remove the fish, treat with copper for ten days (much quicker if you also have access to quinicrine hydrocloride) and leave the tank without fish for about a month.
good luck.
Paul

[frezel]

i dunno about you but have you ever tried to catch even 1 fish in a reef system, almost impossible let alone 20 to put in a quarentine, you should try the easy non evassive techniques first, such as garlic and than uv and than liquid med. I had great success with garlic and instead of wondering just monce a clove or 2 in the tank while you look for the perfect answer..Oh by the way since this is reef keeping everyone has the right answer according to them so take advice like a grain a salt and look at success rates vs years of experience, and good luck

[Thales]

Originally posted by wrott
Dubbin1, have you ever used garlic and a UV sterilizer? It appears that you have strayed from the posted question and are ignorant to other's experience.

I have used both, and find them both to be ineffective, or as effective as doing nothing.

It is most difficult to determine if any ich treatment (besides hypo or copper) has actually had any effect on the parasite. The life cycle of ich is such that it can clear up on its own, only appear to clear up, only appear to clear up for a short amount of time, or your fish can develop a partial immunity. The parasite may go away, or seem to go away for reasons having nothing to do with whatever treatment you used last.

Some have sworn that their ich problem went away because they changed their light bulbs.

[Paul B]

or your fish can develop a partial immunity

Actually, I believe they can develop full immunity. I have not had a case of ich in over 20 years and I don't quarintine or do anything to new arrivals, (don't do what I do)
I can put in fish with full blown ich, which I do all the time and the fish will either die or be cured but none of the other fish will get it.
(so far)
Good luck.
Paul

[danmcmahon]

I had Ich in my 125 Reef and used (Ruby Reef - Kick Ich) It is meant to be used in reef tanks and safe for corals and inverts. I had to give it 2 dosing cycles to work but all the fish lived. The only down side is that it is expensive to treat the whole tank but I felt I didn't have a choice because their is no way I would have been able to catch all the fish without destroying everything. I also turned the UV on. I dont know if that had anything to do with it.

[Reef'in Colorado]

Try cleaner shrimp, cleaner wrasses, and neon gobies in addition to garlic in their food.

[Gobie]

Originally posted by Paul B
Actually, I believe they can develop full immunity. I have not had a case of ich in over 20 years and I don't quarintine or do anything to new arrivals, (don't do what I do)
I can put in fish with full blown ich, which I do all the time and the fish will either die or be cured but none of the other fish will get it.
(so far)
Good luck.
Paul

Same here

No one believes me when I tell them that I don’t treat for ich and it just goes away once the fish is healthy enough, they will keep it off. Just added a blue throat trigger with ich, it’s gone now. None of my other fish ever got it.

[Thales]

The ich may not go away at all. It may still be present but not in enough quantity to be visible.

I have also used Kick ich and ruby reef, both have had the same effect as doing nothing - see my previous post. There have also been reports of both of these products not being reef safe.

[docjay]

I had Ich in my system. My Powder Blue and Yellow tang were affected. I soaked the food in garlic but the Ich kept returning every few days. A month or so later in desperation I added a UV sterilizer. After that the fish seemed to shake it off. Would they have beaten it without the UV? Is the Ich still in my system? I can't say for sure. But I"ve added more tangs since then and they haven't contracted ich.
Give it a try. It sure beats removing all the fish.

Jay

[MarkO]

Well I appreciate all the info.
I'd try to remove all the fish, but damn... that is near impossible without draining it 100% or tearing it down... something I really don't want to do.
I've had success in the past removing the fish and ttreating w/ hypo, but that was in a much smaller tank, and the fish were easy to catch.
Anyhow, I am going to stick with garlic. Fish (tangs mostly) seem to have a few spots in what seems to be a week or so cycle, but they seem healthy otherwise.
If I try to remove them, has anyone tried "fishing" them out?

[Thales]

If you only have a few spots, feed the fish a lot so they have all the nutrition they need to help fight the parasite. Some believe that garlic helps the fish want to eat, and that is the utility of garlic. Some believe it does more. Either way, get them to eat.

I have fished fish out of the tank. Small hook, and remove the barb. It actually turned out to be way easier than I thought - I caught the fish on the second baiting of the hook!

[kalare]

Go to your grocery store and pick up some "kaolic garlic extract." 6-8 years ago when this method first came about, this was the rage, and I'll tell you, everywhere i looked, people were having success. Just soak it for a good 10 minutes or so and then feed several times a day. I've had success with it MULTIPLE times to all the nay-sayers. In some instances fish cleared up by the next day after feeding garlic. I've been keeping reefs for over ten years and never every take my fish out because, as just stated, you pretty much have to tear the whole thing down, especially if you're trying to catch a 6line wrasse or similar.

[Thales]

I have had the exact same success by simply feeding the fish more often than normal, with no garlic.

[Dubbin1]

Originally posted by wrott
Dubbin1, have you ever used garlic and a UV sterilizer? It appears that you have strayed from the posted question and are ignorant to other's experience.

Yes I have and no it didn't work. There are you happy Whats making me laugh over this is that a scientific study was done on this and garlic was not proven to cure anything....

[kalare]

Originally posted by Dubbin1
Whats making me laugh over this is that a scientific study was done on this and garlic was not proven to cure anything....

Not saying you're wrong about garlic, but doesn't hurt for him to try something that's far easier than pulling all the fish and only takes a day or two. That being said, curing something is far different from clearing it up. I take pseudoephedrine when I have a cold and it makes my sniffles go away, but I'm not cured. No, not the same as garlic, but just putting it in perspective. Perhaps garlic may not cure the fish, only aid or repel. To add to this, there have been many shall wel say, "not too scientific or useful" scientific studies. I'd love to see this study cause I'm sure it'd be great info on the subject.

[Thales]

Perhaps garlic only makes people feel like they are doing something to help the fish.

[djr2001]

Originally posted by NoSchwag
A UV will kill ick if it's rated correctly.

Whats the rating for a 75g? I've got a small case of ich (or had)..
Lost my cortes and flame angels over the past two weeks... UV wasn't plumbed yet but its now running 24 hours as of yesterday...

[kalare]

or perhaps the allicin in the garlic helps fend off other infections (bacterial or other...which it has been known to do, scientific studies and all). Thus, helping the fish fight off ick. I'm done with this conversation. I can understand some noting the lack of reliable information and saying that it may not work. However, some of the comments here insinuate that the itellegence of individuals that believe it can help is lacking, this is insulting.

Here are some things worth reading, no, they don't prove garlic does anything, they also prove it's not proven to NOT do anything.

http://www.reefs.org/library/article...tes-jorge.html

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/20...ture/index.php

Bartelme, 2003 and and Cortes-Jorge, 2001

Terry Bartelme wrote:
Herbal remedies (i.e. garlic)

Using herbal remedies to combat Cryptocaryon irritans or ich has become more commonplace over the past few years with marine aquarists. Garlic, in particular, has become popular. The foods are soaked daily with garlic prior to feeding the fish for several weeks to combat ich. Unfortunately, evidence to support garlic's effectiveness or lack thereof, for the treatment of Cryptocaryon irritans is anecdotal (Bartelme, 2003a. Cortes-Jorge, 2000). It seems to work in some cases, especially with light infections, and not in others. However there is some evidence to support garlic as a treatment for some other types of parasites.

An extract of garlic, allium satiyum, has been reported to eradicate trichodinids (Madsen et al. 2000). It has also been demonstrated that garlic extract kills Ichthyophthirius multifiliis, at the theront stage within 15 hours. Ichthyophthirius multifiliis is the freshwater parasite that causes an infection that is often referred to as ick.

The extract was prepared by crushing fresh garlic cloves. The juice was then added to the aquarium at a dosage of 62.5 mg/L to kill theronts.If more than 50% of the theronts died the concentration was recorded as effective ((Buchmann, et al., 2002). A dosage of 570 mg/L was required to kill 100% of the tomocyst stage of Ichthyophthirius multifiliis. Preliminary tests using allium satiyum indicated that it has no effect on trophonts in the skin of fish (Buchmann et al., 2002). The amount of active compounds varies widely among the different varieties of garlic and the use of garlic, by adding it to the water, may prove to be unrealistic ((Buchmann, et al., 2002).

The mechanism of host location for Cryptocaryon irritans is unknown (Colorni & Burgess, 1997). It has been suggested that garlic, when administered orally to fish, may interfere with the parasites ability to parasitize by camouflaging the chemical attraction of fish (Cortes-Jorge, 2000). Chemical attraction requires further investigation (Colorni & Burgess, 1997).



Just a quick search, and I'm sure there's more to refute garlic and to support it. But it would be stupid to outright say it can't work and doesn't work. Perhaps there are other things in play, but we don't know. I'm done.

[Thales]

Originally posted by kalare
or perhaps the allicin in the garlic helps fend off other infections (bacterial or other...which it has been known to do, scientific studies and all). Thus, helping the fish fight off ick.

Possibly. However, there are still issues about how this happens and if feeding it to fish is an effective delivery system - ideas that are covered in the articles you linked.

I'm done with this conversation.

Thats too bad. I thought it was a nice conversation.

I can understand some noting the lack of reliable information and saying that it may not work. However, some of the comments here insinuate that the itellegence of individuals that believe it can help is lacking, this is insulting.

I don't see any of that. Sorry if anything that I wrote made you feel that way - that certainly was not my intent.

Here are some things worth reading, no, they don't prove garlic does anything, they also prove it's not proven to NOT do anything.

I don't think anyone in this thread said it has been proven to not do anything.

[kalare]

Originally posted by Lefty

I don't see any of that. Sorry if anything that I wrote made you feel that way - that certainly was not my intent.

My fault then, carry on.

May or may not do anything. Pretty much sums it up.

[Paul B]

No one believes me when I tell them that I don’t treat for ich and it just goes away once the fish is healthy enough, they will keep it off. Just added a blue throat trigger with ich, it’s gone now. None of my other fish ever got it.

Gobie, I know, no one believes this. I have been trying to find out why this happens for years. I know a few doctors and authors in the field and we still have no clue. If it is because the fish become immune (which it seems) why do new fish not get infected. I know there is ich in my system, for 35 years I have been putting fish in there, three this week from a dealers tank that was infested with ich, most of the fish in the tank where I got a blue stripe pencil fish were dead from ich. I would love to know the answer to help the people whose fish have this disease. When I started in the early seventees all fish had ich and most of them would die in the dealers tanks. We diden't even have copper then. I had very bad problems for the first eight years or so, no matter what I did, there was ich everywhere. We had to keep copper in the water continousely to keep anything alive. Those rocks and gravel are still in my tank by the way.
As for garlic, I am not an expert on it's use since I have no ich but I love it in linguini and clams.
Good luck guys (and girls)
Paul

[tangreef68]

maybe a new heater is in order, that could cure the temp fluctuations

[MarkO]

Well, I guess that leaving the fish in the tank and trying to "cure" the tank of the parasite is probably not going to happen. Removing the fish, hypo and a fishless tank for a month will.
Maybe I run a fishing derby with the boys.