Is our hobby driving the horror?

[Paulster]

Cheers James...

[Balduron]

Hmmm, I have been debating about posting, and it got the better of me. When I think about the reefs, and the disrespect that is shown to them, I remember one thing, Who created them. That being said, I also remember that I am not big enough to make a huge positive impact, but the Creator is, and If I listen to God's directions as to what I am to do(After all, he did command mankind to "subdue" the earth) I know that He did not mean to DESTROY it, but to "use it" in a fitting manner. That being said, I know that he would whole heartedly approve of captive breading, and captive propogation. But what of my part?? That is to, as many people have mentioned, educate myself, and to do the best of my ability to keep healthy and productive fish and corals and other reef animals.

However, I feel that the problem is much bigger than an individual issue, after all, look at what the impact of the polution(just solid dremains that settles in our streems, rivers, lakes and oceans)has caused. All that poisoning of the land and waters. You see, that is caused by the greed and pride of the people running the huge corperations. Have they asked God what they should do to "subdue" the Earth?? I am not a judge, but I would have to say, from the results of their actions, absolutely not. I do not feel that laws or more regulations will help(after all, all the laws about guns in schools have only caused more kids to end up dead) I say that each person, not just those in the hobby, but all people need to come to an understanding of how they are commanded to treat this Earth.

The thing that I am trying to point out is that People are the culperates, and they seem to hide behind "the beterment of the world" or "it is for the Company", but in my opinion, it is greed that drives the polution of this planet, and it is greed that drives this hobby. I mean, look at it on an individual basis. Take me, for example, why do I work?? to pay bills, feed my son and me, to buy a few nice things. Why do I strive for more money, a promotion, beter job, be it even a little bit, at some point, it could be grered. I WANT MORE CASH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and that is what drives the main causes of polution. They want more cash.

I would like to ask, however, what is it that is causing "Global Warrming" Because the few articals that I have either read, or heard in lecture form, have attributed this effect to the mass amounts of CO2 that is being pumpped into the atmosphere. However, the level of this gas has been recorded and measured for over 150 years. Acording to the "Global Warrming" proponents, When "X" amount of CO2 is added to the atmosphere, then the global temp. will raise 1 degree. According to that formula, right now the Earth should be unihabitable, since in over the past 150 Years that they have been recording CO2 in the atmosphere, it has increased many times "X" Making the Temperature way to hot to support life. However, there is a 16 Degree area that the Earths average temperature has maintained over the past 150 years, fluctuating 8 Degrees both ways from the average.

Sorry for such a long post, but I think(if I do not sound like I am totally crazy) that I just might have some form of passion toward this topic. My biggest thing is Responsibility, and many people in charge of things do not have it.


Balduron

[Thales]

Do you think God would be ok with us cramming animals into little boxes for our own personal gratification?

[Balduron]

Absolutely, as long as we did not so as I did when I first enterd the hobby thinking, since my parents had aquariums when I was young, that I knew all I needed to know. Without educating myself, I got a 29G tank and put 2 Oscars, 2 Convicts, 2 Jackdempsies and a Pleco in it. I ended up returning the Dempsies and the Pleco, the Oscars killed the male Convict, one of the Oscars died from HLLE(Head and Lateral Line Erosion).That was grosley stupid, wrong and very sinfull. I have since bought a 75G tank, the Oscar, Female Convict, and a new Pleco are doing gret. I have also added the only survivor of my father's tank, a little 2 " catfish(not sure of the species).

What God expects from us concerning animals is responsability. If we as humans did not domesticate some animals, think of all the chaos that would be caused from the needless hunting of the wild dogs, or Ferril cats. What about horses running wild everywhere, that would cause a great danger to all of us driving on the roads. So that may be diferent from fish, however, God does want us to be happy people, and for some of us, fish make us exceedingly happy. Others, like my son, do not care for fish,however, he is using my 29G tank for his Bearded Lizzard. God just expects us to be responsible and provide our pets with a good healthy life.

[Mogrash]

Oh great....now God is going to tell us how to take care of our fish?

[JmLee]

you know what I think.... i think this guy just bombed out on he's own thread.... where you hidng at axepilot?.

[Thales]

Originally posted by Balduron
[B]Absolutely, as long as we did not so as I did when I first enterd the hobby thinking, since my parents had aquariums when I was young, that I knew all I needed to know. Without educating myself, I got a 29G tank and put 2 Oscars, 2 Convicts, 2 Jackdempsies and a Pleco in it. I ended up returning the Dempsies and the Pleco, the Oscars killed the male Convict, one of the Oscars died from HLLE(Head and Lateral Line Erosion).That was grosley stupid, wrong and very sinfull. I have since bought a 75G tank, the Oscar, Female Convict, and a new Pleco are doing gret. I have also added the only survivor of my father's tank, a little 2 " catfish(not sure of the species).

What God expects from us concerning animals is responsability.

That seems odd given the first paragraph.

If we as humans did not domesticate some animals, think of all the chaos that would be caused from the needless hunting of the wild dogs, or Ferril cats.

In the US, we 'put to sleep' over 2 million dogs and cats a year.

What about horses running wild everywhere, that would cause a great danger to all of us driving on the roads.

?

So that may be diferent from fish, however, God does want us to be happy people, and for some of us, fish make us exceedingly happy. Others, like my son, do not care for fish,however, he is using my 29G tank for his Bearded Lizzard. God just expects us to be responsible and provide our pets with a good healthy life.

What about all the fish that die during collection, transport, wholesale, and LFS?

[birdfish]

"All the fish that die" due to the hobby still is not a drop in the bucket to the sealife from turtles to dolphins to sharks and whales killed as bycatch by the commercial fishing industry.

It is nothing compared to the extinction or nearly so, of many native species of fishes RIGHT HERE IN THE U.S., the draining of
the Colorado River so Desert megalopolises can look like jungles while the Sea of Cortez loses its greatest freshwater source.
THAT is the horror. Not the hobby.

Mountaintop mining in the Appalachains silting in countless hundreds of streams. Pacific NW clearcut logging making
some salmon species endangered and or extinct.

I could go on forever. Someone please stop me.

How is the hobby the horror? The environmental horrors are
occurring daily near you, and most of the U.S. population doesn't care.

Someone please stop the insanity

[Thales]

The hobby can be pretty horrible. Look at a bad collecting station or a bad LFS. That doesn't mean that there are other things out there that are worse, but we shouldn't use that as an excuse for the 'horror' the hobby contributes.

[cyclebrkr]

birdfish - You make the same point as many have on this thread, but we are still a part of the problem. We are a very small percentage, but still a percentage! That point will be made again and again. We can go back and forth and argue all day and it will accomplish nothing! The fact is clear, we need to do something to minimize the impact of our hobby. I am a part of it just as you are, and i try to minimize my impact as, hopefully, everyone else on these forums.

Your right on nobody caring. It seems that is the American, and/or World attitude towards just about everything.

[Sailor_jon]

Of course we impact the workds reefs...We impact everything we do because as human animals, thats what we do. We dont blend, we adapt the environment to us, not the other way around. Its not a moral judgement its how we were built. As far as reefs, lets look at three things:

One is the freshwatertropical fish industry, they produce as an aquacultural product, probably 90% of everything in a LFS. Good move, the discoverd long ago, you cant keep collecting, the source runs out and its cheaper to aquaculture and you have better 'control' over the product. Hillsborough County, Florida, where I am from, has a huge aquculture industry dedicated to nothing but tropical fish, for distribution and sale in LFS.

Two - yes or course the hobby has impact, look at Hawiian reefs, where they have been stripped of hippo tangs and other 'popular' fish due to movie star fish, not to mention Thailand, Indonesia and other locations where they have little moral reasons to preserve. They are not educated in sustainability and therefore strip mine entire areas for fish for us hobbyists. Dont be an Ostrich and pretend its not happening. We contribute by purchasing from these LFS who patronize such distributors, if you dont know where the fish came from..ASK!

Third...All that being said, just last Sunday, I watched a school of about 100 Jacks decimate a school of about 10,000 threadfin minnows in about 5 minutes, the segulls ate the rest. The diffference is, it was converted to Jacks which are eaten by..... etc etc...all sustainable resources! More fish than hobbyists would put in a tanks around the world in a year!

YES we have an impact, but we can reduce the impact by aquaculturing and trading between us, and learning and exploring and passing on the knowledge. The Pew Oceans Research Study is correct, the biggest impact we have on our Oceans is overpopulation. The great salad days of constant taking from nature are rapidly coming to an end, we see that with global warming and what happens when we crap in our own sandbox.

Lets all be resposible and contribute to our own sustainability not selfish taking. We were given the ability to do this.

[tigerarmy40]

there really isnt a stat on how small a percentage of damage the hobby really does to the natural reefs, Im guessing by the number of members here and on other forums its preety large wether we want to beleive it or not.... but I can tell you this from travel that I have done, the guys working the reefs in a lot of major collectors and distributors are getting a couple bucks an hour and hack through the reefs like their chopping weeds in an onion feild and they get paid based on how much and what is collected so do you think that they are careful or care about the life out there!?!? this stuff is offerdo n black market for illegal corals or in areas where collecting is banned....its a huge industry and can be looked at as a smaller scale tuna fishery.... are most serious hobbiest educated and careful about who they buy from? yes! but how many does that account for? just my 2 cents

[sandry75]

I think we need to look at the bright side too. With demand will come a greater desire to understand and control the product flow or supply chain. This has lead to increased understanding of all aspects of the reef in an effort to produce the "Product" without the reef itself. This will eventually lead to less need to acquire specimens from the wild as they can be produced cheaper in a controlled environment (lab).

I work in the drug development industry and we frequently take the same approach - if we research a "Natural" cure enough, we can then subsequently produce it ourselves with less impact and better quality/supply.

In the long run – we will gain a better understanding of how to save or minimize the impact on the natural environment.

[tigerarmy40]

Originally posted by sandry75
This will eventually lead to less need to acquire specimens from the wild as they can be produced cheaper in a controlled environment (lab).

I dont meen to disagree but I would think low labor in the collection places with an abundance of natural sea water and no need for reactors or suppliments would be lower cost then overhead of a lab with electricity and the every day cost that we hobbiest pay for only on a much larger scale!!!! The cost is going to be much greater for aqua and mari culture but if the hobbiest see's the importance hopefuly he/she will be willing to pay the extra cost!!!

[cyclebrkr]

I, for one, would be willing to pay more for captive raised fish and corals. The problem is, that if you don't buy directly from the source, or have a way to prove it, you will never know if it is captive raised or not.

[MCary]

I know I should never visit this forum. The ignorance is just overwhelming. I use that word with its literal meaning not as an insult.

Balduron, it always astounds me how religious people all speak for God. I also find it interesting that my heathen self knows more about the religion than those that practice it. Lets hit some high points:

What God expects from us concerning animals is responsability.

Interesting considering the last time he talked to us directly we were sacrificing goats.

If we as humans did not domesticate some animals, think of all the chaos that would be caused from the needless hunting of the wild dogs, or Ferril cats. What about horses running wild everywhere, that would cause a great danger to all of us driving on the roads.

Dogs are domesticated wolves and cats are descended from the African Wild Cat. It isn't like there were a bunch of poodles and tabbies running around waiting to be brought into the cave. Horses would not be running wild everywhere, they would be limited to native ranges, they were smaller, and had natural predators. I know you were trying to make a point but wow! Sounded just a little silly.

God just expects us to be responsible and provide our pets with a good healthy life.

And where does it say that in the Bible? You made that up right?

I do my hobby without any guilt, but lets assume I was racked with it. Philosphically speaking, if the reefs are being affected by the ornamental hobby then each and every person in the hobby is responsible. Even if you strictly adhere to buying aquacultured products. It just the same as wearing fake fur. By wearing it you keep the fashion alive and animals continue to be killed for their skins. Which I also approve of BTW.

You may have a nice aquarium full of aquacultured coral. You show it to a friend who decides he has to have one, but does not share your sense of responsibility and stocks it with batfish and goniopora. You are responsible for that.

You go to the pet store to buy food for your fish. Some of the money the pet industry makes is used to promote the hobby. Once again, you are indirectly responsible.

Lets face it, you like the hobby and therefore you justify it with your environmental sensitivities. But your kidding yourself and you probably know it. If you are really concerned, get out of the hobby. That is the only way you can claim innocence.

Mike

[Balduron]

That seems odd given the first paragraph.

Why does that seem odd??? I completely blew it and admit to it. I was arrogant, I thought I knew everything, after all, "they are just fish, right??" What is odd about that?? everyone makes mistakes, of course I could blamne it on the LFS guy who sold me all the fish knowing full well I only had a 29G tank.

In the US, we 'put to sleep' over 2 million dogs and cats a year.

Again, there is a responsability issue. The reason the dogs and cats are put to sleep is due to lack of responsability. "After all, it is just a dog, right??" People with that attitude abandone their dogs and cats everyday.

What about horses running wild everywhere, that would cause a great danger to all of us driving on the roads.

[QUOTE]?[/QUOTE

Some 200 years ago, there were wild horses all over the US and several other countries around the world. If they had not bee domesticated they would still be wild horse herds in those places. Makes sence that since we domesticated them, they are not in danger of being hit by cars. I know of an incident on a Federal reserve where Buffalo roam, and peolpe live in the same area. I did not see the accident, but I did help Buffalo that was hit by a Suburban. The Bufalo walked away, was later tracked and found serverely wounded and put down. The Suburban was totaled and all the people in it spend several days in the hospital. Wild herds of animals and people do not mix, that was my point there.

What about all the fish that die during collection, transport, wholesale, and LFS?

Whos fault is this?? Is it the colectors?? or the transporters, how about the LFS people. You see, I think you missed my point here, Greed is driving the issue of the fish, dogs, cats, coral, any animal that is dieing because of comercial sales/breeding. It is all about more money. Are we responsible for the Colectors poor methods, or the shippers?? or the LFS's lack of adequately trained staff?? I have enought trouble policing myself, as you saw from the first paragraph of my post, how can I be responsible for anyone else???

Interesting considering the last time he talked to us directly we were sacrificing goats

That is an interesting point. You say you know more than the people that practice religion, why were they sacraficing Goats??

Dogs are domesticated wolves and cats are descended from the African Wild Cat. It isn't like there were a bunch of poodles and tabbies running around waiting to be brought into the cave. Horses would not be running wild everywhere, they would be limited to native ranges, they were smaller, and had natural predators. I know you were trying to make a point but wow! Sounded just a little silly.

I addressed this earlier, :Some 200 years ago, there were wild horses all over the US and several other countries around the world. If they ahd not bee domesticated they would still be wild horse herds in those places. Makes sence that since we domesticated them, they are not in danger of being hit by cars. I know of an incident on a Federal reserve where Buffalo roam, and peolpe live in the same area. I did not see the accident, but I did help skin, and process the Buffalo meet that was hit by a Suburban. the Bufalo walked away, was later tracked and found serverely wounded and put down. the Suburban was totaled and all the people in it spend several days in the hospital. Wild herds of animals and people do not mix, that was my point there.

God just expects us to be responsible and provide our pets with a good healthy life

And where does it say that in the Bible? You made that up right?

Actually, I did not make this up, the Bible is full of commands for "Good Stewardship", most people think that this term is referring to money, when in fact, it is referring to everything that God has provided for us, and everything that we take responsibility over. After all, the first command that God gave was to "subdue the Earth" That would in and of itself command stewardship and responsability over everything, living or not.

[Thales]

Originally posted by Balduron
[B]Why does that seem odd??? I completely blew it and admit to it. I was arrogant, I thought I knew everything, after all, "they are just fish, right??" What is odd about that?? everyone makes mistakes, of course I could blamne it on the LFS guy who sold me all the fish knowing full well I only had a 29G tank.

It seems odd to me to say that its about responsibility after talking about how you killed a bunch of animals. If you accept that just about every new reefer will kill a bunch of animals, I am not sure how that jives with responsibility.

Again, there is a responsability issue. The reason the dogs and cats are put to sleep is due to lack of responsability. "After all, it is just a dog, right??" People with that attitude abandone their dogs and cats everyday.

You originally wrote: If we as humans did not domesticate some animals, think of all the chaos that would be caused from the needless hunting of the wild dogs, or Ferril cats.

The chaos with domesticated animals seems pretty huge, so I don't think domestication is the panacea you are making it out to be.

Whos fault is this?? Is it the colectors?? or the transporters, how about the LFS people. You see, I think you missed my point here, Greed is driving the issue of the fish, dogs, cats, coral, any animal that is dieing because of comercial sales/breeding. It is all about more money. Are we responsible for the Colectors poor methods, or the shippers?? or the LFS's lack of adequately trained staff?? I have enought trouble policing myself, as you saw from the first paragraph of my post, how can I be responsible for anyone else???

If you are in the hobby you are responsible, not to blame, for how the hobby is practiced. If you continue to purchase 'poorly collected or housed' animals, you are responsible. Saying that it is someone else's problem seems irresponsible to me.
Also, greed is what is putting fish and corals in our houses, and that greed is no different from the greed for money.

[Balduron]

It seems odd to me to say that its about responsibility after talking about how you killed a bunch of animals. If you accept that just about every new reefer will kill a bunch of animals, I am not sure how that jives with responsibility.

I am curious, have you lost any animals to neglect, poor judgement, bad choices, miss-information?? This is a starnge thing that Humans do, they keep animals as pets for many reasons, companionship, "protection" I like the newest one, "emotional support". However, not everyone enters any of these activities with the full knowledge that is required. Some will never learn. I chose that after I saw what a mess Ihad made, to learn from my miss-judgement and mistakes. It sounds to me that everyone who has killed an animal should not keep animals ever again.

The chaos with domesticated animals seems pretty huge, so I don't think domestication is the panacea you are making it out to be.

I guess I figure that it is the lesser of 2 evils, just imagine how bad Rabies would be. Have you ever seen a pack of Wild Dogs in real life?? I am not talking about a stray here or there, I am talking about a pack of 10 or 12 wild dogs, that heve lived out in the wilderness for several months, through a winter, maybe a couple of years. They are very organized, and worse yet, they are not affraid of Humans. I have had to hunt them, it is not fun. At first we had to use a catch pole, we were luckey one morning and had 2 captured in a fenced in area. The male, when i got him on the pole, chocked himself out. It t ook over 2 hours to catch him, he was exausted, he would not give up. My point was that without domestication, there would be worse problems. If more people learned responsability, even if it is the hard way, as I did, that would be better than not at all.

If you are in the hobby you are responsible, not to blame, for how the hobby is practiced. If you continue to purchase 'poorly collected or housed' animals, you are responsible. Saying that it is someone else's problem seems irresponsible to me.

I was pointing out the reason for the problems. I think that it is the responsability of every hobbyist to make the choices that are best for the animals that they purchase. Like many other things in thie world, we all want things today, right now, this instant. That is another thing that drives the greed. However, if we just slow everything down a notch or 2 and let things take the course that they should, for instance, back to my disaster; if I had done the research first, Hmmm, not sure how my tanks would have came out.

Or maybe we should just take all our tanks, dump them in the rivers and oceans( depending on the type) and end the hobby. That would surely stop the misshandling of fish. Better yet:

All this *****ing about whether the use of electricity for our reef tanks is impacting the reefs via your electrically operated computer is impacting the reefs! Quick, turnoff your computers. Wait, better yet, move to a tropical island with your corals and use the natural sunlight and saltwater, (circulated by hamsters turning an archimedes screw). But wait, just living on that island negatively impacts the reef. Doh! I think the only answer is for all us environementally concious consumers to kill ourselves, sacrificed to the reefs we love, and let the 'clean up crews' have at. However, we have to go one at a time, or else there will just be a huge algae bloom that will negatively impact the reef.

[Thales]

Originally posted by Balduron
[B]I am curious, have you lost any animals to neglect, poor judgement, bad choices, miss-information?? This is a starnge thing that Humans do, they keep animals as pets for many reasons, companionship, "protection" I like the newest one, "emotional support". However, not everyone enters any of these activities with the full knowledge that is required. Some will never learn. I chose that after I saw what a mess Ihad made, to learn from my miss-judgement and mistakes. It sounds to me that everyone who has killed an animal should not keep animals ever again.

It seems to me if I thought that God wanted me to act responsibly in regards to animals, I wouldn't keep animals in a glass cage for my own pleasure.

I guess I figure that it is the lesser of 2 evils, just imagine how bad Rabies would be. Have you ever seen a pack of Wild Dogs in real life?? I am not talking about a stray here or there, I am talking about a pack of 10 or 12 wild dogs, that heve lived out in the wilderness for several months, through a winter, maybe a couple of years. They are very organized, and worse yet, they are not affraid of Humans. I have had to hunt them, it is not fun. At first we had to use a catch pole, we were luckey one morning and had 2 captured in a fenced in area. The male, when i got him on the pole, chocked himself out. It t ook over 2 hours to catch him, he was exausted, he would not give up. My point was that without domestication, there would be worse problems. If more people learned responsability, even if it is the hard way, as I did, that would be better than not at all.

Those aren't wild dogs, those are domesticated animals that were let loose and I don't think you can compare them to real wild dogs.

I was pointing out the reason for the problems. I think that it is the responsability of every hobbyist to make the choices that are best for the animals that they purchase. Like many other things in thie world, we all want things today, right now, this instant. That is another thing that drives the greed. However, if we just slow everything down a notch or 2 and let things take the course that they should, for instance, back to my disaster; if I had done the research first, Hmmm, not sure how my tanks would have came out.

I think that is ignoring the custody chain.

Or maybe we should just take all our tanks, dump them in the rivers and oceans( depending on the type) and end the hobby. That would surely stop the misshandling of fish. Better yet:

If I believed God wanted me to act responsibly you betcha.

[Balduron]

So let's just cut to the chase:

It seems to me if I thought that God wanted me to act responsibly in regards to animals, I wouldn't keep animals in a glass cage for my own pleasure.

Do you keep animals in a glass cage for your own pleasure??

And...

If I believed God wanted me to act responsibly you betcha.

With the "IF" there, the question would obviously be:

Do you beleive God wants you to act responsibly??

Those aren't wild dogs, those are domesticated animals that were let loose and I don't think you can compare them to real wild dogs.

Again, I was using this as an example to make a point. Maybe it was a bad choice of example of maybe it was just a bad point.

[tigerarmy40]

how did this thread turn into a religious topic? this isnt about religion but rather the damage the hobby may be doing to the natural reefs all over the world!!! just a reminder that we may be waaaaayyyyy off topic!

[MCary]

[IMG]Some 200 years ago, there were wild horses all over the US and several other countries around the world. If they had not bee domesticated they would still be wild horse herds in those places. [/IMG]

The wild horses running all over the US were the result of escaped domesticated horses. They were only re-domesticted by the indians. The majority of the rest that were not allowed to free roam were shot. Had they not been domesticated in the first place they would not have been here. They were brought over by the Spanish. I still don't get your point. Your trying to say that domesticating animals solved alot of problems and then site as examples problems caused by domestication.

That is an interesting point. You say you know more than the people that practice religion, why were they sacraficing Goats??

Before Jesus the followers of the God of Abraham sacrificed animals. So I don't know, why were they sacrificing goats?

After all, the first command that God gave was to "subdue the Earth" That would in and of itself command stewardship and responsability over everything, living or not.

Not even. It means conquer and use however you see fit. It places dominion over the animals. Do whatever you want to them free of responsibility.

Mike

[Thales]

Originally posted by tigerarmy40
how did this thread turn into a religious topic? this isnt about religion but rather the damage the hobby may be doing to the natural reefs all over the world!!! just a reminder that we may be waaaaayyyyy off topic!

I think religion is connected to the topic at hand when people use religion to explain what the hobby may be doing to natural reefs.

[tigerarmy40]

well its time to unsubscribe!! cause this is pretty much rediculous and has nothing to do with reefin anymore but instead a bunch of talk about god and horses and dogs and cats!!! c'mon people are you reading what your writing?