Responsibly wild caught vs. tank raised?

[maddyfish]

Originally posted by Loralie
Unfortunatly foolish mean people have money. To most it wouldn't matter if nemo cost 14.99 or 79.99. If their kids were screaming wanting it they would buy it. I recently attended the Dr. Foster's frag swap and had the pleasure of speaking with and enjoying a discussion with Julian Sprung concerning the ethics of our hobby. I was amazed at what he had to say and gained a better understanding of our place in the big picture. All in all he emphasized our hobby has put a value to the reef itself. I some of the costal countries they use the "live rock" groung up to make roads. They get $60 to $80 per ton of rack. However in the reef keeping trade they can sell the same rock for $6000 to $8000 per ton. There for making it a more precious commodity. they can harvest less on gain more. Same goes for the fish. The other problem is some of the largest breeding fishes being captured and sold in Asia. He also stated the single largest cause of the "dying reef " is HEAT! The global warming is killing reefs at an alarming rate. We know what a temp spike in our tanks can do...imaginge that on a larger scale. I am in Minnesota and we haven't had good snow in years. Our winters are much warmer, the warming is planet wide, and the bleached white reef's are a prime example of the global warming.

I wasn't aware that global warming has gone beyond the "theory" stage. When was it proven? Also, you don't generally get 'more money' by being foolish or mean. You get it by being prudent, careful, and patient. All hallmarks of a good reefkeeper.

[Buckeye ME]

If we breed all our own, make our own live rock, what value will the real reefs have to the third world countries where most reefs are located?

Why do we have to give them value? They will exist without human demand on their inhabitants, that's what matters. The value is they are still there to be enjoyed for viewing.

Are you claiming 3rd world countries benefit economically from us, and that is a reason to harvest wild animals?

[maddyfish]

"Why do we give them value?"

We give them value because WE BUY THEM.


When we are willing to pay $5-6 a pound for live rock,$40-100 for a fish, that gives third world countries a reason to protect reefs. Live rock and fish are renewal resources, if responsibly harvested.

[maddyfish]

If we stop or limit purchase of reef products, then to a third world country with no other useful products, the reef ceases to have value. It is easy to sit here in the U.S. and say they have value because they exist and we can view them, but to people in Fiji, or Indonesia, value means money with which they can buy food.

[Buckeye ME]

So if they have no value why would people be harming them? Do you see what I'm getting at? These reefs in Fiji aren't getting destroyed due to pollution like the ones in the US, they are being overharvested. If they have no value for harvesting, they will be left alone.

[cKarlGo]

Originally posted by maddyfish
For instance, how many $14.99 clowns have suffered and died Nemo-death? How many would have died if Nemo cost $59.99?

Personally, I have never understood the concept of fish being disposable pets. Sometimes I have to wonder what's wrong with people.

[knowse]

Originally posted by Buckeye ME
So if they have no value why would people be harming them? Do you see what I'm getting at? These reefs in Fiji aren't getting destroyed due to pollution like the ones in the US, they are being overharvested. If they have no value for harvesting, they will be left alone.

Dispite what you may think, over harvesting isn't the biggest concern on the reefs. Food fishing with cyanide, dredging, bottom trawling, blast fishing and agricultureral runoff are all bigger problems. Some MO fisherman also use cyanide to catch those preety tangs that everyone loves so much. Cyanide kills corals.

The fishermen are poor people, and our hobby sometimes gives them enough money to buy food with. I know, I lived in the PI for a few years and saw how those people lived. Those poor people even have to pay to send their kids to school.

[Loralie]

I wasn't implying you get more money by being mean or foolish. I was suggesting that those people have the income to purchase fish regardless of cost, therefore making the cost irrelevent. The global warming issue was questioned when Julian gave his speech and he stated that those in disbelief should spend an afternoon on the reef's seeing what he sees on a regular basis. The people harm them to feed their families. Our hobby has shown them that grinding it up at $60 per ton for roads isn't in their best interest, when they can sell to the hobby for $6000. We stop purchasing/stop enjoying our tanks, they go back to harvesting for roads again....they have to feed their families. If you have a family and that family is hungry you will do what you have to to feed them. Also the Cyanide is the culprit for destroyed reefs. Butterflies are another commonly Cyanided fish as well.

[macman7010]

as hobbyists we need to help strides toward aqua cultured and tank raised species of everything, that is the best option for the future.

[cortez marine]

"as hobbyists we need to help strides toward aqua cultured and tank raised species of everything, that is the best option for the future".

Thats the worst option for the future.
If you cut the fisherfolk out of the loop, they will not go quietly into the night.
They will not spare anything on the reef if we withdraw from the battlefront.
They will smash, smuggle, spear, overfish, sell the sand and wage war to earn what they can.
By our market for wildlife we can excaberate the looting or we can partner in the harvesting properly.

Sustainable collecting practices can be taught and markets can involve all the way down to the field level.
A spirit of corporate responsibility can displace the looting partnership that has so given the trade a black eye . Importers have sponsored agents of handling and packing reform and can extend it to collecting reform .
I'm now involved with a company that believes this and is putting their money where their mouth is. Others can follow.
If we do it well enough on tape....we may even teach environmental groups how to do it.
More news as it unfolds.
Steve

[macman7010]

Originally posted by cortez marine
"
If you cut the fisherfolk out of the loop, they will not go quietly into the night.
They will not spare anything on the reef if we withdraw from the battlefront.
They will smash, smuggle, spear, overfish, sell the sand and wage war to earn what they can.

I am afraid this really makes no sense to me what so ever. First of all imagine a marine hobby where nearly every species of fish, invert, coral, etc was tank raised as opposed to wild caught. A marine hobby much like the freshwater aquarium hobby is, one where a customer could make the choice to keep only tank raised stock and still have lots of stock avaliable to choose from - really enough to fullfill a lifetime of fish keeping.

I dont understand why any of the native fisherman that are catching coral reef fish for the aquarium trade would smuggle, spear or overfish anything if they had no need to. Likely there would still be some species of fish that they would need to catch for the industry (much like the freshwater industry has some fish that are still wild caught for it). So it would still be to the fisherman's benefit to be careful with the reef.

This way our hobby would not have near the enviromental impact it does today, and the stock we would acquire would be of higher quality and already suited to captive life. Look at freshwater Discus. Wild caught fish needed water quality that nearly mimicked the blackwater conditions of Brazil where they were found. Today tank bred Discus live in a variety of water conditions, many that would kill a wild caught fish in a matter of days.

[macman7010]

Wait a second I just noticed your occupation reads that you are a collector, importer. So you are saying if sometime in the near future most of marine aquarium livestock is tank raised and aqua cultured this is what you plan to do...

"they will not go quietly into the night.
They will not spare anything on the reef if we withdraw from the battlefront.
They will smash, smuggle, spear, overfish, sell the sand and wage war to earn what they can."

[MiddletonMark]

So says a guy tied into the import business.

Self-interest showing through?

[maddyfish]

I believe that the only way we have a say in the reefs' future is to continue to purchase reef products, but require that they are responsibly caught. Without reefkeepers the reefs are awfully useful with which to pave roads. If you think 3rd world people won't grind them up for a bite of food, you're wrong. The only way we have a say is to pay, and pay well, for responsibly harvested stock.

[cortez marine]

He writes;
I am afraid this really makes no sense to me what so ever. First of all IMAGINE a marine hobby where nearly every species of fish, invert, coral, etc was tank raised as opposed to wild caught...

Imagine....
Imagine theres no hunger....I wonder if you can...
Imagine all the people...living lives in peace....
etc.etc...
John Lennon

Dude,
"nearly every species...?"
The % of tank raised species in the trade is so small as to be regarded as a step in the right direction...but a step that is slowly approaching 2% of the fish species and 1 % of the inverts!
Corals are being fragged and farmed ...yes, and so are clams....but you're celebrating way before the trade gets anywhere near what you imagine.
Everyone wants it...business invests millions in it....and like the cure for cancer and muscular distrophy....its just not that real yet.
Steve
ps. Imagine ...yes....but in the meanwhile and in the next 20 years, people still have to eat!

[cortez marine]

Wait a second I just noticed your occupation reads that you are a collector, importer. So you are saying if sometime in the near future most of marine aquarium livestock is tank raised and aqua cultured this is what you plan to do...

Now thats funny.
Having worked in the Philippines and Indonesia, Tonga and Mexico for half my life, I'm telling you what actually will and does happen.
You must see the difference between an experienced observation of poor fisherfolk cultures and my own comfortable 'Western' attitude.

[GreshamH]

Originally posted by maddyfish
I believe that the only way we have a say in the reefs' future is to continue to purchase reef products, but require that they are responsibly caught. Without reefkeepers the reefs are awfully useful with which to pave roads. If you think 3rd world people won't grind them up for a bite of food, you're wrong. The only way we have a say is to pay, and pay well, for responsibly harvested stock.

There's one person in this world that had done far more then any others on the subject of responibly harvested stock, and that's Steve Robinson aka Cortez Marine. He's the original outer of the cyanide trade (FAMA articles from 82' - 84') and did so on his own dime. He saw a problem and has since offerred solutions. He conducted the first net trainings and those divers are some of the best/most highly sought after in the world. He's conducted his business on the highest morals and ethics I have personally ever seen.

He's the biggest fountain of knowledge on the subject and frankly, most people are thirsty, even if they don't know it yet

[CodeBlue]

I must be confused. If the 3rd world is selling live rock for $6000 to 8000 insted of the $60 to 80 per ton, does that mean they stopped building roads?

[macman7010]

Wow, didnt know that. Since I was born in '81 - 82 and 84 are kind of before my day I guess. Looks like I still have a lot to learn about the hobby though and I have never heard of Steve Robinson but can sure admire your work cortez marine.

It is too bad there are literally cultures out there that for financial needs have to destroy our natural enviroment. People are not aware how valuable coral reef systems are, and how volitile they are to human and natural interaction. Im glad you have done what you have cortez as I am someone who believes through ethical and moral guidelines and intellegent training we can both sustain a healthy marine hobby and a healthy natural reef eco-system.

Likely we will find as the hobby progresses that a mix for both tank raised stock and wild captures (responsibly) exists. As more common marine species are being bred in captivity we find that people still desire to keep the more exotic beauties and I dont think we are anywhere near a day when tangs and other exotics will be bred in captivity.

I was unaware that fisher cultures acted so desperatly but I guess desperate people will take such measures when the trade that supplies them with food diminishes.

Although my opinon as an aquarist is that tank raised and tank bred specimins will prove to be better livestock than thier wild caught brethern. This is simple science really considering tank bred and raised animals are more adapt to take prepared foods, live in a variety of captive conditions, and do not have the rigorous shipping stress thier wild caught cousins do.

[gilpster]

As a european reading reefcentral it is telling that the opinion that global warming is not due to carbon emissions still carries weight in america and is often extolled on this board. America really is the only country to doubt that vast amount of evidence presented by the scientific community, and even in america the body of scientific opinon is in a minority - but these scientists hold key positions of influence in american government.

The international Panel on Climate Change agreed that global warming was a real phenomenon with only america refusing to accept the evidence.

In October, 2000 at the Ninth International Coral Reef Symposium, held on the island of Bali, researchers warned that...
"Coral reefs around the Maldives and Seychelles islands in the Indian Ocean have taken the brunt of warming seas, as 90% of these corals have been killed over the past two years." (sic)

W Bush's veto of the kyoto protocol was the original catalyst that caused his unpopularity in europe.

Anyway, to return to the arguement above, I think that ecosystems and species as a whole are more important that individual animals. I think to place high value on an individual fish or coral (!) is internally inconsistant with eating fish, for example. It it difficult to say the life of a $15 tank bred clown matters while eating cod and chips.

My tank contains only tank bred fish and coral frags. It doesn't have any particularly exotic species, but then i've not had a fish death in five years either.

kenneth

i love you all

[CodeBlue]

W Bush's veto of the kyoto protocol was the original catalyst that caused his unpopularity in europe

President Bush did not veto the Kyoto accord. It was Prsident Clinton and a 98-0 no vote in our Senate. The only one in our government pushing for it was the inventor of the internet Al Gore.

When I was growing up I heard of the coming ice age. I am curious why we think that anything we do can change the environment. The earth goes through cycles of hot and cold. There are many scientist who say we are below the average and still coming out of an ice age.

[gilpster]

okay perhaps i'm getting confused with the alaskan pipeline thing.

Another reply to my post could be that the only reponsible thing to do would be to not have a tank at all. This nullifies all energy pressures from the halides, and manufacturing resources, as well as collection of subjects from the wild. So it is diificult for any marine aquarist to take the moral high ground.

to say that we can't influence the world seems a little fatalistic.

[MiddletonMark]

Originally posted by CodeBlue
The earth goes through cycles of hot and cold. There are many scientist who say we are below the average and still coming out of an ice age.

Do a little search on short term variations and rapid changes in the climate. Try Europe's `mini-ice-age' a few hundred years ago.

[Care_52]

i have to agree with maddyfish

[GreshamH]

Originally posted by gilpster
As a european reading reefcentral it is telling that the opinion that global warming is not due to carbon emissions still carries weight in america and is often extolled on this board. America really is the only country to doubt that vast amount of evidence presented by the scientific community, and even in america the body of scientific opinon is in a minority - but these scientists hold key positions of influence in american government.

The international Panel on Climate Change agreed that global warming was a real phenomenon with only america refusing to accept the evidence.

In October, 2000 at the Ninth International Coral Reef Symposium, held on the island of Bali, researchers warned that...
"Coral reefs around the Maldives and Seychelles islands in the Indian Ocean have taken the brunt of warming seas, as 90% of these corals have been killed over the past two years." (sic)

W Bush's veto of the kyoto protocol was the original catalyst that caused his unpopularity in europe.

Anyway, to return to the arguement above, I think that ecosystems and species as a whole are more important that individual animals. I think to place high value on an individual fish or coral (!) is internally inconsistant with eating fish, for example. It it difficult to say the life of a $15 tank bred clown matters while eating cod and chips.

My tank contains only tank bred fish and coral frags. It doesn't have any particularly exotic species, but then i've not had a fish death in five years either.

kenneth

i love you all

Wow, nice blanket statement about Americans. FWIW, there's PLENTY of Americans that feel just like you Heck, many of us didn't vote Bush any of the times

Other then that, love your post

Costa Rica used to have reefs, but due to one giant event (reef uplift/killed most of their pacific ocean reefs) and their intense run off problem (banana farming mainly) , they really no longer have any reefs (both side now). Maybe Steve (Cortez Marine) will chime in here and give his details from his research there a bit back.