Judge the LFS

[s0|]

I know lots of people whom have SW/Reef Tanks also have FW tanks or exp. in them....

Do you all think that you can judge how a LFS keeps SW stuff by their FW stuff?

Example a LFS that sells FW "tank buster fish" to people whom don't have the setup for them, and are not very likely to get the setup to keep these FW fish.

If they are willing to sell these FW fish to people with so much as a "you know these get REALLY BIG, right" are they just as likely to sell a SW fish(..etc) that they know the buyer can not provide for.

Let me know if you think this is mutually exclusive or not (i.e. will sell any FW fish no matter what, but more protective of their SW stuff)

[asfullax]

IMO!

There are two sides,

One, if a LFS shows any disregard twords life, this will be evident throughout the store.

Two, in a perfect world if every LFS sold only compatible / healthy/ properly maintained fish their sales would drop because people would setup a tank and it would just work. By selling incompatible fish "Blindly" they can count on a good percentage dieing and then the customer will be back to buy replacements. This way the LFS is does not look at fault, and ultimatly it should be up to the customer to reaserch.

When I go to a fish store, I ask a few questions to see what they say: How long should I cycle my tank before I get fish? How often should I change my water? What water params should I test for for salt and fresh? What fish would you recommend for a reef tank.

if they answer with the right response or "I don't know" I feel that I can trust them. if they come back with some crazy answer I will try and find other places. but in a place like NM, well, sometimes you just have to let it go.

my .02

[AJ31655]

Also alot of the people buying fish that get big without the right equipment don't listen to the LFS employees, and we get sick of arguing with them ALL DAY LONG. So sadly most just give up and sell it to them to save themsleves the hassel. With freshwater we warn them and void our stay alive guarantee, with salt we tell them to leave if they get too ****y about it. But if you had to argue with these people all day long you might not give the LFS employees such a hard time for only saying "it's gonna get real big".
And as far as judging SW by the FW, I wouldn't. Tetras die alot easier that clowns or tangs, and with the way bio-loads go up and down in the FW tanks week to week, it really is alot different. The SW should always be in better shape than the FW in my opinion, now that I have worked at one.

[s0|]

I know people don't always listen to the LFS when they tell them maybe this fish is not right for them or their setup. I can hear someone else saying why do LFS regualary stock tank busters in large qty's? (or is this just the LFS I see)

[AJ31655]

People buy them. It also depends on what you consider a "tank buster". Oscars? Arrowanas? Or bigger? It would be like telling the gas station to stop selling cigarettes.

[angelsil]

I think you can judge the care of an LFS by the way their FW stock looks, yes. If there are animals housed completely inappropriately and lots of dying/sick livestock in FW, then I would be leery to buy any FW or SW fish. I think you have to go in more than once, though, to judge a place. A consistent pattern proves the rule.

For example, I know of a store where I used to live (Indiana) that was keeping upwards of 10 breeder angelfish (FW) in a 10 gallon tank. The fish could hardly turn around. They had bacterial infections, fin rot, and were in sad shape. I refused to shop there for anything after I saw this both times I went into the store. It's cruel and it shows a lack of care for their livestock or customers, because anybody who buys one of those angels is going to have a battle on their hands.

As for sales techniques, I think it is necessary to query folks about their level of experience in the hobby and their setup if they don't pro-offer it. I've worked at 3 different LFS and I always asked people what kind of setup they had before selling them something - not in a confrontational way. I'd use it as conversation. It's usually pretty easy to tell whether someone knows what they're doing or could use some help in picking a compatible fish for their system.

My .04

[asfullax]

excelent point AJ31655. When I worked at our LFS, we had a zero tolerance policy for a while. it would almost become an all out fight sometimes while trying to explain that fish A will eat fish B or that fish C will not fit in their current setup. Our most common answer was people saying "Well, this other store said it would be fine!" how do you respond to this??? You can tell them to go back to that store and lose a customer (possibly more) or you can just do what they want and expect a life to be lost.

[Vim]

Nothing negates up an angry customer than a referance book esp. a really big one with colored pictures. Most aquariest nerds auctually read those books cover to cover and can easilly find the referance to show to the customer. So when the customer goes "ooooh" then yused done the right techinique

On the other subject I used to by the tank buster fish, small 1"fish. Then trade them back to the lfs when they were almost full grown (or to big for the tank) and get store credit which I used on my for my salt tank. I still do that just with saltwater fish. "The cycle of life"

[phil519]

asfullax
To Reef Central

Originally posted by s0|
Example a LFS that sells FW "tank buster fish" to people whom don't have the setup for them, and are not very likely to get the setup to keep these FW fish.

I wouldn't judge a LFS based on whether or not they sold a "tank buster" or not. The reality is that we do not know whether the person will "eventually" get the right set up or not. One can only warn someone of the fact and hope that that person has done some research on the fish prior to purchase. Of course - one assumes that when the person says - "I have a 10gallon and I want 5 arrowanas!" obviously, one hopes the LFS says uh-uh.

I like to see if the LFS is "pushy" or not about selling something. Also how knowledgeable are they about the livestock in the tank? Do they have a guarantee on saltwater fish? Will they take back something you've bought from them in exchange for store credit? Will they hold your fish for a few weeks?

There also a "sampling" I like to do - that is, revisit the store several times to see if my experience was colored by one knucklehead salesperson.

Finally - I actually prefer a small shop that doesn't have a large variety if they can keep the fish healthy - versus one with extraordinary variety that doesn't.

[s0|]

Originally posted by AJ31655
People buy them. It also depends on what you consider a "tank buster". Oscars? Arrowanas? Or bigger? It would be like telling the gas station to stop selling cigarettes.

Arrowans maybe, but I was thinking bigger.

[AJ31655]

I have very rarely seen Arrowannas for sale except at very small shops that seem to specialize in rarer fish. Thats about the biggest I have seen ever though.
Also, the LFS I work at is VERY picky about what we take back and I agree with it. I look at buying a fish small and getting rid of it when it gets big like buying a puppy and getting rid of it when it's not cute anymore. We rarely do it unless the fish is in danger or in REALLY poor conditions, but if they didn't listen and want to bring an oscar becuase they found out it really does eat tetras, or a hawkfish really does eat shrimp, they get nothing for it, no store credit no money back. But they still always come back, cause hey we were right.
I also agree with the idea of looking a few times and talking to a few people before deciding. We get bad fish shipments, from time to time. Shipper forgot heat packs in a box, something punched a hole in the box, and alot fo the fish die. There are also bad seeds in every store personel wise like every company.
And don't hop to conclusions about one or two rough looking fish either, sometimes these are brought back but customers. We have a BIG blue tang right now that was brought back by a customer, completely shredded, his spurrs on his tail are broken off, has really bad Head and lateral line errosion, and this is how we got it, it won't eat so theres not much we can do for it.

[NCSTANG]

what AJ31655 says is true you wouldnt beleive the amount of people dont give a flip about what advice you give them. I have people ask me questions all the time about fixing there tank, and its always wellmy sister or cousin does this or that and there tank is fine so why cant I? So in many cases it doesnt matter what you say if some homeboy is hell bent on putting a trio of oscars in a 29 g tank then there isnt much you can do, especially if its the millionth time youv had it happen you just save the face and move on to someone who cares,,,,,it sounds harsh but many people could care less about proper care and could care less???lame

[Vim]

I understand my sister has a 30 gal tall tanks with two angel fish and a barb, but they over feed so much and rarly clean it to the point where you'ld swear fifty goldfish lived in it. I tell them just change the water every week and they could eventually add more fish, but instead they buy all these "water clarifyers and anti-waste chemical treatments that IMO are just a waste of money. People are going to do what they want just like LFS, some good some bad.

[s0|]

Originally posted by s0|

Let me know if you think this is mutually exclusive or not (i.e. will sell any FW fish no matter what, but more protective of their SW stuff)

[xnikki118x]

If I'm going to buy saltwater fish at a pet store, I mainly look at their selection of saltwater fish and how they're cared for. There's a pet store about an hour away from me where everything in their store is in sad shape, except their reef tanks. I'd never buy a puppy there, or a snake, or anything else, but their reef setups are outstanding.

Likewise, my local Petco's saltwater setup isn't the best, but their reptiles are very well-cared for and I wouldn't think twice about buying a lizard or a snake from them.

Some stores though, I'll never go into. I used to work at one around here called Pet Wonderland, and none of their livestock was cared for. Their puppies had kennel cough, their kittens were flea-ridden and had ear mites, the bark in their reptile tanks was infested with mites, their freshwater fish always had ich and fin rot, their saltwater fish always had bacterial infections...and when I'd bring an animal's illness to the owner's attention, he would respond by giving me his song and dance about being a small business owner and thus not being able to afford the proper medication for his animals. Then, he'd drive home from work in his sparkling white brand-new Lexus SUV. Can't afford the proper meds, riight.

Personally, I think an all-around good pet store is protective of all of their livestock. But some stores have stronger departments than others, as in my first few examples.

Bottom line, IMO--if you get a bad vibe from someplace, don't write it off immediately; go back once or twice more, and if it still doesn't feel right to you, take your business elsewhere. If you're happy with a particular store, keep going back. Simple as that.

[s0|]

xnikki118x: Your petco has _____ well cared for....??? The one by me I can pick out things wrong with animals I know, and the ones I don't know what to look for I just sort of assume that there is something wrong with em, becuase 1) it's petco, 2) They people who work there don't seem to know anything about anything when I have asked them stuff.

Thanks

[Agu]

Don't judge an LFS until you've worked in one. I was hired as the salt guy, guess what? The majority of question were fw and I didn't have a clue, even after having fw several years before I went marine. I quit after two weeks knowing I was terminally incompetent for the job (the boss being a nut case may have had an influence).

At the pay of an LFS expect what they pay for........

Agu

[mwood322]

I had the fun of working in a chain store for over a year. I lucked out in that some of the lower level managers at least knew what I was talking about, whereas the store manager didn't have a clue. I ran fish and reptiles, which were two of the least regarded departments. Meaning in the morning if I wasn't there no one changed the reptile water, or pulled dead fish, they just turned on the lights...

The care of the animals ultimately fell to whoever they could get to do it. If I wasn't there no one fed the fish, except those who wouldn't eat, they were very good at trying to feed algae eaters piles of algae pellets to furthur pollute the water. When I came back from 2 days off I'd get to pick throught eh reptile tanks, trying to see where that smell was coming from.

When I started working there I had only freshwater tanks. By the time I left, I had 5 geckos, some frogs, 5 snakes and a cockatiel. Almost all of these animals were either "damaged" in shipping, in store, or were owner turnins, some of which were left at the front door when we got in. Thank God we didn't sell dogs or cats, or I never would have even applied.

As far as advice it was hit or miss. Personally I didn't talk about fish I didn't know anything about, and I didn't sell fish from diseased tanks but that didn't stop stockboy A or B from being called to fish as backup on the weekend, and selling fish that were covered in ich or fin rot.

In the time I worked there all but one employee, was fired, quit, or was transferred to another store. I got to go through 3 general managers, 4 assistant managers, a good number of assorted stockpeople, and droves of cashiers. It was one of the worst managed places I've worked. With that kind of turnover, good luck finding anyone who knew where anything in the store came from., forget how big it was. I basically banned our last manager from fish and reptiles unless he was catching crickets or feeders because his prior experience for this job was he managed a CVS and had to overweight dogs.

That said, I do my own research, and have since about 2 weeks into my freshwater experiences after wbing sold 4 t barbs for my 10 gallon uncycled tank. I researched salt water for over a year before I finally started it. I almost never ask a question to anyone trying to get my money, especially not at a place as subjective as a fish store. though technically I've found best buy worse with selling stuff you don't need.

--Mia

[29GallonReefer]

I work in a LFS. Hence the name, we are one of the few who do not even cary chiclids. Too aggressive over time, no oscars, no arrowanaa, NOTHING aggressive. Only goldfish and community fish.

We flat out tell people to go to petco if they dont go buy our rules for buying fish. If your ever in Louisiana, visit the shop. Believe me its very different than any other shop.

[29GallonReefer]

sorry about "hence the name" , were a very popular shop in Louisiana