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  #26  
Old 03/13/2005, 10:13 PM
AquaTamer AquaTamer is offline
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And pike---if aquarists were keeping Zebra mussels, I suppose the problem with them would be our fault too---right?
  #27  
Old 03/13/2005, 10:24 PM
AquaTamer AquaTamer is offline
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Wait--I figured it out---it's a Jewish conspiracy---let's get all the Jews. (I'm sorry if this offends anybody. particularly those of the Jewish faith. I hope that group will understand that this allusion does justice to all those that have suffered in the past as a remembrance) I use this example intentionally to promote passion against this organization. If this statement offends, ask yourself why this organizations treatises does not!
  #28  
Old 03/13/2005, 11:16 PM
Pike Pike is offline
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I'll to clarify something for you.

Zebra Mussels are a nuisance, invasive species in the great lakes. They arrived via water ballasted in freighters that originated in the Caspian Sea.

THAT is the evil shipping intrest conspiracy you were trying to describe. US & Canadian governments have spent millions battling these pests. It's well known, well documented & painstakingly researched material.

Snakeheads were imported by well-meaning, but woefully uninformed aquaculturalists. A few of the failed farming experiments were wrongly terminated by knocking down their earthen levees & allowing the pond contents to spill into lakes & rivers.

Kudzu was imported to the US from asia as a low-cost, fast-growing cattle fodder. Have you heard of it?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. I would be more than intrested in reading any material you can provide which supports your conclusions.

If you fancy yourself a skeptic, consider this: Given multiple explanations for a single phenomenon, would you chose the one that sounds most reasonable & analyze it? Or the one that's the most fantastic & run with it?

If you'd like to continue discussing this topic, I'm game, as long as the mods humor us. My ip has been banned from every new-earth creationist message board on the web & I'm itching for some mental exercize.
  #29  
Old 03/13/2005, 11:55 PM
greenbean36191 greenbean36191 is offline
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Quote:
This is all BS! Traced back to an aquarium? Just how is that done?
Well in the case of the Mediterranean Caulerpa it wasn't too hard. When the problem was first noticed in 1984 it was realized that the areas of Caulerpa growth were centered near the Oceanographic Museum of Monaco. Genetic comparisons were made to the strain of Caulerpa used in the tanks at the museum and the strains were found to be identical. This is not a naturally occuring strain. It is a clone of a strain that was developed to grow larger, faster, and with a wider temperature range.
Here is one study of the heritage of the strain: http://www.univ-lille1.fr/gepv/downl...ol%20Ecol).pdf
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  #30  
Old 03/14/2005, 12:03 AM
moggyhill moggyhill is offline
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thank you greenbean some people still think the world is flat
  #31  
Old 03/14/2005, 12:05 AM
Peter Eichler Peter Eichler is offline
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Ok, this guy has officially lost his marbles. Is he really using the hollocaust as an analogy to fishkeeping and natural species???
  #32  
Old 03/14/2005, 12:07 AM
Peter Eichler Peter Eichler is offline
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Also since we're discussing this lets not forget Nile Perch and how they've managed to nearly wipeout every indigenous cichlid species that occurs in Lake Victoria. It was not aquarists that caused the disaster, but just an example of how potentially damaging adding foreign species to an ecosystem can be.
  #33  
Old 03/14/2005, 12:10 AM
moggyhill moggyhill is offline
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yes, antisemite
  #34  
Old 03/14/2005, 12:28 PM
anthworks anthworks is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by moggyhill
yes, antisemite
Lets not go there. I think he is just mixing it up to create discussion.. At least I hope.
  #35  
Old 03/14/2005, 03:20 PM
Cuervo Cuervo is offline
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I find it very difficult to believe that hobbyists could possibly release enough viable specimens to start and maintain a breeding population of Volitan Lionfish off of the east coast of the US.
  #36  
Old 03/14/2005, 04:26 PM
moggyhill moggyhill is offline
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anthworks, its too late, how could the antisemite bring up the holocaust . He just wanted to mix it up, I don't think so and I am so offended by this.
  #37  
Old 03/14/2005, 04:27 PM
moggyhill moggyhill is offline
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and cuervo, have you read the previous posts?
  #38  
Old 03/14/2005, 05:21 PM
reefska reefska is offline
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I can emagine that it would be very simple for a few fish to explode in numbers provided that they had the correct environment.

Some well intentioned, but poorly educated fishkeeper, dismantling (for example) his oscar tank, and thinking it would be nice to give their pets their freedom. Sticking 4 oscars in the correct environment, with lots of food.....I fail to see how their numbers can't rise.

Of course release them into a scottish lake, and they wouldn't survive an hour, but in the correct environment, of course they will.

Here in the UK, we have the same problem with chinese white crabs, and red tailed catfish (to a lesser extent).

By the way, AquaTamer, your comments do offend. I fail to see any possible conection between the two subjects, and if (as I hope you did) you were only trying to grab our attention and show your passion about this subject, their are far better ways of doing it, and I would hope you see sense, and post an apology.

Chaio :-)
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  #39  
Old 03/14/2005, 05:30 PM
greenbean36191 greenbean36191 is offline
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Two is enough to start a breeding population. Six were known to have been released in Biscayne Bay in 1992. There were also scattered reports in two other areas of FL prior to that, but no known breeding. That means at least 8 of them that were seen. Chances are pretty good that there were several more that weren't seen. Once they get started their numbers increase exponentially. If you doubt that there is even a breeding population of Volitans in the Atlantic, just look it up. It is well documented.

No, these lions can't positively be traced to aquariums, but the other options are that they came in ballast water or swam here on their own. The migration theory is pretty easy to discard because they don't seem to be breeding anywhere between the Pacific and FL. That leaves ballast water or aquariums. They are known to have been released from aquariums, but there is no evidence to support them being brought here in ballast water. Until some evidence is found showing otherwise, aquariums are the number 1 suspect.
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Last edited by greenbean36191; 03/14/2005 at 05:50 PM.
  #40  
Old 03/14/2005, 05:30 PM
moggyhill moggyhill is offline
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reefska, what are chinese white crabs? I know about red tailed catfish although they make large but lovely pets
  #41  
Old 03/14/2005, 05:39 PM
PodBoy PodBoy is offline
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Yes

Quote:
Originally posted by AquaTamer
This is all BS! Traced back to an aquarium? Just how is that done? Prove it. It never ceases to amaze how quickly a bunch of 'talk about what you don't know's' will adopt the most ludicrous 'urban myths'. For years it was said, and I dare say, still is, that NY sewers are full of Alligators. Someone recently did a study to determine just the voracity of this question and yes---They did not find any alligators! Do you really think that your aquarium fish, that you have so much trouble keeping alive in your controlled (matching the species proper survival conditions) can not only live but, find mates and spawn in an cold hostile and polluted area like has been mentioned? That's stupid and anyone that helps this stupid, insulting organization propagate this myth is a damn fool! Why do you want to take the blame? These problems are created by large shipping and other artificial systems created by large uncaring businesses. They also seem to have enough money to spend to try and create the subdifuge necessary to avoid costly regulations being impossed on them by governmental agencies! I don't like being asked to supporta so-called organization that on one hand says the hobby is being wrongly accussed and on the other hand offers advice not to cause the problem in the first place. Am I the only one around here with the intelligence to see the hypocrasy of this "campaign"?
I WANT TO KNOW WHO IS RUNNING THIS MOVEMENT AND HOW IT CAME ABOUT! Who are we really dealing with? What's the real agenda!
I don't know what makes me more mad, the original hypocracy or the fools that perpetuate it!
Yes come to Michigan, we have multiple invasive species, we even have people that catch pirrahna in one of the lakes here in muskegon. They do know that they came from an exotics fish store that was shut down. He was fined some big bucks too.
We have a form of saltwater algea growing in muskegon lake now, we have mullusks killing off alot of the food for our perch species, (not to mention muskegon lake has now recorded some of the highest Blue green algea toxins ever recorded because of said mullusks) Granted most of these species are from our beloved Cargo ships aquaria know as ballasts.
  #42  
Old 03/14/2005, 06:04 PM
moggyhill moggyhill is offline
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I don't know what makes me more mad, the original hypocracy or the fools that perpetuate it!
A Fool and proud of it
  #43  
Old 03/15/2005, 01:44 PM
reefska reefska is offline
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moggyhill

I'm afraid I can't offer much info on them. The guy at my LFS told me about them when I wanted to get some bullfrog spawn which I got a few years back, but has since been made illegal for the reasons we are talking about.

He just told me that the crabs (freshwater) were imported a few years back to add interest to coldwater tanks, but can get agressive towards fancies. So they were released....now apparently they are living all across the country in canals, and waterways, and have hit the native crayfish numbers badly. Sorry I don't have more info :-(

Also, just saw a thing on the news about a ladybird (can't remember what type i'm afraid) which was first spotted last september, and has already hit the native ladybird population as it is devouring all the aphids, and once they run out, it turns cannibal, and eats ladybirds in all their stages.

As I mentioned in my previous post, I fail to see how anybody can dispute the fact that these things go on...
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  #44  
Old 03/15/2005, 02:00 PM
AquaTamer AquaTamer is offline
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Since I've last been here, I see, you all been busy. Since you all don't seem to be of like mind to me. Having shared my personal history and all. First---the word is Anti-Semite. Did you read that post? Moggyhill, you are a ditto! You are a mindless repeater of propaganda you hear nightly on the "bought and paid for" news.
And, how quickly we dismis someone with a definite viewpoint and a passion to point out the lies he sees, as a "tin-foil" doning conspiracy nut! I have a good metaphor here about The Holocaust, which I will get to in a minute. I've read all the detailing of some of the "problems" listed above. THIS IS MY POINT! Not one of those examples were traced to the fault of a hobbyist like you and me! There All to so-called professionals that F'd up! Yeah, and one of the members of the Trilateral organization of which this forum topic is about too! MY POINT EXACTLY! Everybody has got there little "game". Fish and Wildlife, the association of retailers. Here's where I get to The Holocaust.
When Hitler came to power---how did he do that? A lot of ways. But, thee major way was by little (at first) inuendos about Germany's problems being the fault of the Jew. Little by little, more and more freedoms were taken away. By smear and misinformation campaigns. By distraction and slight of word (metaphor for slight of hand).
The big, governmental agency is going to get with the guilty party (in the first place) and stomp all over our rights! This is like the Farmer and the Fox going after the Chickens!
I resent being called an Anti-Semite! And, you dishonor those that suffered by dismissing the purpose of metaphor!
  #45  
Old 03/15/2005, 03:11 PM
Anemone Anemone is offline
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[flamealert]

Aquatamer,

This is specifically aimed at you. Tone it down. Keep your religious metaphors and government conspiracies to yourself. Discussion of both religion and politics have been removed from this board specifically because of the bad blood they cause between otherwise friendly hobbyists. You've brought both into this thread.

Kevin
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  #46  
Old 03/15/2005, 03:59 PM
moggyhill moggyhill is offline
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thank you anemone geenbean36191 can you at least eat the crabs?
  #47  
Old 03/15/2005, 04:09 PM
greenbean36191 greenbean36191 is offline
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Quote:
Not one of those examples were traced to the fault of a hobbyist like you and me!
Quote:
Oscars in the Everglades.
Quote:
Snakeheads were imported by well-meaning, but woefully uninformed aquaculturalists.
Quote:
Here in the UK, we have the same problem with... red tailed catfish
Quote:
we even have people that catch pirrahna in one of the lakes here in muskegon. They do know that they came from an exotics fish store that was shut down. He was fined some big bucks too.
Quote:
He just told me that the crabs (freshwater) were imported a few years back to add interest to coldwater tanks, but can get agressive towards fancies. So they were released....now apparently they are living all across the country in canals, and waterways, and have hit the native crayfish numbers badly.
"Hydrilla was first introduced into North America in the mid to late fifties by the aquarium trade. California officials have also traced hydrilla infestations to shipments of mail order waterlilies....Since 1984, hydrilla has been the most abundant aquatic plant found in Florida public waters." http://www.wapms.org/plants/hydrilla.html

All of these are problems that have been traced back to the aquarium hobby. All of the species mentioned are freshwater invasives. They were not introduced to closed bodies of water by shipping. Why would the saltwater side of the hobby be any different? Why are most of the 16 invasive marine fish species identified in FL popular in the hobby? Does ballast water only pick pretty fish?

Do the 6 lionfish, known to have come from a private aquarium not count? What about the single strain of C. taxifolia that can be found in the US, Australia, and the Mediterranean? Not all of the place it is found are near public aquaria. That is just how they traced it back to the aquarium hobby.

"There has been no report of finding Caulerpa spp. in ballast waters, although microscopic dispersal propagules have not been monitored specifically. Species of Caulerpa reproduce microscopic swimming gametes. The gametes and their sexual union product (zygote) are negatively buoyant, as are vegetative fragments. Sexual reproduction in nature is relatively rare. These characteristics make ballast water a less likely pathway. The invasive Mediterranean strain of C. taxifolia has not been able to successfully complete sexual reproduction in the wild or in aquaria, evidence against dispersal of this species through ballast waters." https://web01.aphis.usda.gov/regpubl...M2?OpenElement

I don't think anyone is trying to deny that shipping introduces new invasive species, but to think that it is the only culprit is foolish.
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  #48  
Old 03/15/2005, 05:54 PM
electric eel electric eel is offline
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WOW I had to check to make sure I was on Reef Central.
I am in the process of putting together my first tank, but am now wondering if the money would be better invested in a fallout shelter. The end is obviously near.

With global warming, ground water pollution, marine species being devastated by overfishing and loss of habitat, famine, disease, nuclear arms proliferation, and on, and on, and on, this planet is on a difficult path.

Despite all the "problems" mentioned above, IMHO the single greatest problem being faced by the inhabitants of this planet
is APATHY.
While it is not my place to tell you what to care about.. you HAVE to care about something..ANYTHING...or your existence is pointless.
This planet is our home... and barring a miraculous advancement in the space program ... will continue to be our home till we die.
We should show the same dilligence and care to this planet and ALL its inhabitants.... plants, animals, natural resources, etc... that we show to that small cube of water we call our reef tank.

Its simply our responsibility.


( It is not the intention of this poster to inflame, anger, insult, sadden, or cause undue mental stress to any reader, but to simply express my opinion.)
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  #49  
Old 03/15/2005, 06:18 PM
reefska reefska is offline
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electric eel.....I couldn't agree more.

I of course have strong feelings about all those subjects, but just because there are these "big" problems going on, doesn't mean you should loose sight of the smaller ones.

you forgot deforestation...my personal biggie..

you have in no way caused undue mental stress.....that is a constant problem.. :-)
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  #50  
Old 03/15/2005, 07:31 PM
moggyhill moggyhill is offline
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welll said electric eel
 

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