who out there goes with a bare bottom tank. Just live rock and no substrate?

[DownUnder-Reefer]

Originally posted by SPC
Most I would imagine look at Dr Ron as "the" DSB expert and yet he has changed his opinion from a DSB can be run indefinitely, to change it out every 4 or 5 years. Why didn't he say this originally, he could have made some of our decisions whether to use a DSB a whole lot easier.

Steve

Steve, I haven't seen this, can you point me in the right direction to read this?

Thanks heaps

[Bomber]

Originally posted by Jimmy_D
My intention is in no way to start a flaming war. I just have my opinion and you have yours.

Jimmy, it's not you. I'm just mad as a hornet about this. This tank was a lot of work, time, and money. Not to mention the animals that are in it. Now I've had to be in and out of this system more than I should, scrubbing algae and stuff. I've got to relocate the animals, break the tank down, and start it over. Which is not going to be the best thing for the animals.

It has very very little to do with Dr. Ron either. He did not invent DSB's, he didn't even introduce it to the hobby. I suppose if someone is fairly new to this and only hangs out on RC and certain boards they might have the impression that he did.

[Monster_13]

I suppose if someone is fairly new to this and only hangs out on RC and certain boards they might have the impression that he did.

Bomber, quite making fun of me.

[DownUnder-Reefer]

Just out of interest Bomber as I'm only new to RC and am not familiar with your tank.

How often do you do water changes?

Do you use NSW?

Would you say your tank was light/moderate/heavily stocked?

Heavy or light feeder?

Do you skim 24/7 and do you collect much skimmate?

Do you get a fair amount of algal growth on the front pane of glass?

Would you have to remove this daily, twice a week or....?

The more info we have on all the different systems the better.

[SPC]

Originally posted by Jimmy_D
Steve, I haven't seen this, can you point me in the right direction to read this?

Thanks heaps

Here is the article it originally appeared in:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-1...ture/index.htm

You can also find much discussion of this theory in Dr Rons forum.
Please note Jimmy that many of us do not believe that metals are the culprit as Dr Ron has postulated.
Steve

[SPC]

You may also find this of some interest Jimmy. Please note what Dr Ron is now saying about the lack of critters in our DSB's as compared to the natural reef. I find this to be very pertinent information for anyone wishing to try and duplicate what actually takes place in a "natural" DSB.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-0...ture/index.htm

[DKKA]

Somewhere I read an abstract from a waste water treatment article discussing the use of "Slow Sand Filters" as a low tech method of removing HM's and organics from waste water.
IMO, there isn't much doubt a DSB would accumulate unwanted material over time.

I don't see this as a bad thing. We want those materials removed from the water column. IMO, a DSB with skimming provides better water quality than skimming alone. It just means that on future tanks my DSB's will be located seperate from the main tank where they can be easily changed out if the need arises.

(Jerel, maybe that just means I'd rather swap out a remote sandbed every 3-4 years instead of doing more regular water changes.... )

Dan


(and who here is still waiting for a pic of 64Ivy's barebottom....heh)

[bluereefs]

This is not 64 Ivy barre bottom picture,but that is how look my before few months,right now green star polyps and photosintetic encrusting sponge colospongia sp fill all that space (and front glass to ).Crushed corals gravel are removed too,that was only hand full amount for decorated purpose.

[bluereefs]

And for me this bottom dont look unaturall and I dont think this bottom can stress the fishes,btw I dont lost fishes last few years nor I threat them with medicine or quarantine,do you who use dsb can say the same?

[Aged Salt]

Fellas, both sytems, among others will work well for reef tanks. From 1988 to 1994, my reefs were bare-bottoms--from mid-1994 to present my reef tank has 6-7" DSB. No sign of "old-tank syndrome" as my SPS's grow the usual rate as others that I see. I will tell you that I've always stirred my DSB to my plenum screen without any "toxic shock " to the animals. I realize this is against "the company line" but I also believe, that is why my DSB/plenum is not a nutrient sink. Ultimately, I attribute my success to rigid tank husbandry & an over-sized skimmer.[Use customized 6ft. tall 'Berliner" by MTC.

[oceanarus]

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showp...t=1&thecat=500

picture of my 26 gallon with bare bottom (can see part of it in the picture). Tank is only 6 months old but coraline alge is covering much of it. I attribute my NO3 being constantly at 20ppm to to many fish (some are moving out in the near future) and my wife overfeeding the fish (she feeds them like her spawning pairs of clowns). Inspite of the NO3 everything in the tank is healthy and growing.

BTW, the bottom of the tank is not what I am normally staring at when I stand in front of the tank, but all the beautiful corals!

[Monster_13]

My shallow sandbed normally keeps the nitrates at 2 ppm

[metamorphis]

Originally posted by Jimmy_D
Nice Emu Kris

Why thank you. They are graceful, majestic creatures.

-KRIS

[Zoom]

I know my DSB going bad in my 200G tank and i have to get it out slowly and put new one in there i was smart and i put my live rock on the buttom of the tank so i only need to siphon it out when i do my water change the sand bed was tested for phosphate and is loaded so i'm not goin to spend any $$ for removal of the phosphate just get the sand out and mey be put 1" back in there. you can see the algae start to grow right at the base of the sand bed.
Bomber,
this is the way yours DSB started goin bad?

[Zoom]

HERE is more algae starting to grow.

[SPC]

Originally posted by Aged Salt
Fellas, both sytems, among others will work well for reef tanks. From 1988 to 1994, my reefs were bare-bottoms--from mid-1994 to present my reef tank has 6-7" DSB. No sign of "old-tank syndrome" as my SPS's grow the usual rate as others that I see. I will tell you that I've always stirred my DSB to my plenum screen without any "toxic shock " to the animals. I realize this is against "the company line" but I also believe, that is why my DSB/plenum is not a nutrient sink. Ultimately, I attribute my success to rigid tank husbandry & an over-sized skimmer.[Use customized 6ft. tall 'Berliner" by MTC.

With all due respect Aged Salt, you are running a plenum system, not a DSB that sits on the bottom of the tank.
Do you siphon your substrate? I know this is recommended with a plenum system and could make a world of difference in the health of the system.

Steve

[Ewan]

It was approaching 4 years old. The first thing that happened I started to get spotty cyano places that I never had before, then hair algae in places around the bottom of the rocks, especially where the rocks were touching the sand. Organics were building up faster than the DSB was able to process it. I did all the standard methods of controlling it. Sput!

Bomber:

Your experience echos mine perfectly. So much in fact, that I read your post aloud to my wife (she's listened to my b*tching for a little over 2 years) I pulled my DSB 9 months ago, and have been very satisfied with the results. I picked up the slack by doing 10% weekly waterchanges. It was time for a change, and I wasn't afraid to work.

I moved last week, and I have a whole new lot of Kaelini rock brewing in the basement waiting for my new setup. My old rock is now covered in red turf that I have been fighting for years. I'm saying goodbye to it (it'll cycle for a few months) and I'm starting over. My "new" rock has been cycling for a little over 6 weeks now.

I had a DSB for about 3 years, and I kept it well stocked with critters. I even had spaghetti worms sexually reproducing every 5-6 weeks. The bed was mooving and alive. Time happened to catch up with it.

In my new setup, I'm adding my rock first, and then a small amount of sand. I used that method in the small tank in the kitchen, and I really like the result.

I thought I was alone in disliking DSBs... I gave up 9 months ago, after spending a little over $90 in critters every year to seed it.

The largest benefit so far is the additional current I can blast through the tank.

jm$.02

E.

[Bomber]

Originally posted by Jimmy_D
Just out of interest Bomber as I'm only new to RC and am not familiar with your tank.
I understand

How often do you do water changes?
Fairly close to 100% water changes at least once a month if not more.

Do you use NSW?
Yes

Would you say your tank was light/moderate/heavily stocked?
moderate

Heavy or light feeder?
medium

Do you skim 24/7 and do you collect much skimmate?
heavy skimming 24/7 and take out around a gal of very dark skimmate a day

Do you get a fair amount of algal growth on the front pane of glass?
practically none

Would you have to remove this daily, twice a week or....?
about once a week with the magnet

The more info we have on all the different systems the better.

I agree

Originally posted by DKKA
(Jerel, maybe that just means I'd rather swap out a remote sandbed every 3-4 years instead of doing more regular water changes.... )
Dan

Don't make me have to come get you Dan! LOL I wish this one was so remote it had a separate zip code.

Originally posted by Zoom
Bomber,
this is the way yours DSB started goin bad?

Zoom, that's exactly the way it started. A little hair algae around the base of the rocks, then it's slowly crept up the rocks from there. Keep in mind, this tank had none, zippo, for years.

[Bomber]

Ewan

I hear that.

>>I'm saying goodbye to it (it'll cycle for a few months) and I'm starting over. My "new" rock has been cycling for a little over 6 weeks now.<<

That's the same thing I'm doing this time. I'm going back to the old ways that worked for me for decades. I'm letting the rock "cook" and clean its self up.

>>I had a DSB for about 3 years, and I kept it well stocked with critters. I even had spaghetti worms sexually reproducing every 5-6 weeks. The bed was mooving and alive. Time happened to catch up with it.<<

Mine too. All I have to do is take a bucket across the street to re-charge mine. What caught up with mine was just a too big anoxic/anaerobic zone, end product detritus, and it filled up.

>>The largest benefit so far is the additional current I can blast through the tank.<<

I'm going with a small amount of sand and big current too. I can clean the detritus out that way.

Wanna have a starting over party?

[absolut]

Bomber and Ewan,

You guys are saying goodbye to your old rock just cause it has some algae growth on it?? Couldn't you just scrub the hell of of it before reintroduction.

Bomber, by "cook" what do you mean??

Thanks

[Wind]

taggin along.. interesting thread.. setting up a 90 soon, and this was helpful for me... hmm..

so how do u guys siphon the detrius w/ so much current ?? especially in big tanks.. and what not? may seem a stupid question..

[Aged Salt]

Steve, yes, I do siphon the gravel as I did back in the 70's when we used the "miracle-filter of Bob Straughn"=UG filter plates.

[64Ivy]

Well finally. Tried to get as detailed a shot as I could to show coralline and debris covering the bottom. Interestingly, in a tank wide shot, the bottom looked a bit like a sandbed! Optical distortion here due to shooting at an angle through dirty, old acrylic.

[Ewan]

64Ivy:

"barebottom" might be the wrong term for you. That looks very appealing. Alot of nice growth and color.

As well, I've been pointing out your name to my wife every time we watch Married...with Children. She's a huge fan of your setup since she saw your room in the TOTM column. Very cool.

Bomber:

I'm all set to party. I have to say that I'm VERY excited for starting over. I decided to get the best rock I could find for the occasion, and give it some serious time to cure. I've got a whole journal full of mistakes (and some victories) to learn from. Let's call it a "what-not-to-do" manual.

You guys are saying goodbye to your old rock just cause it has some algae growth on it?? Couldn't you just scrub the hell of of it before reintroduction.

Bomber, by "cook" what do you mean??

I've been battling red turf for about 4 years now. It's gotten worse, and peaked when my won pro heater stuck on and caused my tank full of SPS to go into a major recession event. Then only thing that survived over the following weeks were some softies, a Yongei, and my fish.... and the Red turf took off. This was after a couple of months of it slowly receeding. My tank is too small for a foxface or a rabbitfish , and I've tried EVERYTHING (4 years worth of everything).

My tank became an eyesore, and it broke my heart to even look at it. I did not go quietly. It was a helluva battle. I still do my waterchanges, and I am very diligent with my maintenance. H*ll, I even beat bryopsis before this stuff came along.

Seeing as reefkeeping occupies all of my free time, I thought I owed it to myself for a fresh start.

Personally, I will be placing my old rock in a 44gal brute trashcan in the dark for 2-3 months with a Superreef devil skimmer powered by a mag 9.5. It will receive the water from my reef after a waterchange (it will receive weekly waterchanges).

I believe this is what Bomber means by "cook". Let the rock cycle in the dark, and give it a good LONG time to get rid of the nasties.

I'd even consider leaving it in the backyard for the rest of the summer.

We're not disposing of it, rather, re-cycling it. (if you like puns)

E.

[Mojoreef]

I always ran a bare bottom tank, but converted to a dsb. I ran the DSB for about 4 years, it was great for the first couple but then I started to get hair algae bloom/cyano blooms in various spotsa through out the bed. It would crop up and use all the organics in that are and then move to another. It was then that I realized that the DSB had reached a point of saturation and the ammount of critters I put in it didnt make a difference.
At this point I decided that if detritus removal was what I wanted it was a better idea to just remove it (by vacumming) then to create this elaborate poop cycle that was doomed anyway.

heres a pic.