who out there goes with a bare bottom tank. Just live rock and no substrate?

[gregt]

Go to any estuarine system or harbour or lagoon or anywhere that isnt continously pounded by waves and dig down, the sand will always be blackish and have a "DSB" smell to it.

Ok. Then, when you are done playing in the muck, go to any reef and check out the sand bed...

But it's moot anyway. Our tanks are not open systems. We can't treat them like the ocean. We aren't doing 100% water changes twice a day with NSW....

Additionally, the reef can deal with hair algae growing on it because there are 10 bazillion urchins, hermits, snails and tangs, keeping it pruned back.

[chrixx]

Zoom:
I checked the pics of 64Ivy's tank on the post you are referring to, but I can't get a good look at the bare bottom.

I also checked the website, but no good pics of the bare bottom there either.

[DownUnder-Reefer]

If you want bare bottomed tank go that way, want a DSB with a dynamic microfauna biodiveristy go that way. In the end as with everything the choice is yours.

[Zoom]

Originally posted by chrixx
Zoom:
I checked the pics of 64Ivy's tank on the post you are referring to, but I can't get a good look at the bare bottom.

I also checked the website, but no good pics of the bare bottom there either.

64Ivy reef tank was tank of the month not long a go my be you can find it and look in there pictures my be pictures in there that you can see the BB.
here is
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-03/totm/

[chrixx]

64Ivy reef tank was tank of the month not long a go my be you can find it and look in there pictures my be pictures in there that you can see the BB.

I checked the tank of the month section as well. No good pics of the bare bottom.

[64Ivy]

Y'know, come to think of it, I've never intentionally taken a shot of my tank's barebottom! I'll try it tomorrow.

[chrixx]

Thanks 64Ivy. That would be great.

[chrixx]

BTW 64Ivy, Beautiful tank and excellent web site.

[Monster_13]

IMO DSB's are ugly, and from what I have read, do not last. I have a shallow sandbed in my display, and a DSB in my refuge. That way it can be removed or added to or whatever I want to do in the future. Needless to say, DSB's are losing popularity.

[DownUnder-Reefer]

"DSB's are losing popularity"

Why do you state that?

[rbaker]

I've always run bare bottom reefs. You can see pictures of it by clicking on the little red house...

I recently added an inch of aragonite for aesthetic reasons. I'm happy with the look.

I have a 150 gallon refugium with 450 lbs of Southdown and it's loaded with macros. I don't have any detectable Nitrates. I attribute this to the refugium with DSB. I always had to work fairly hard at keeping them down before I added the fuge with DSB.

JMO,

Ryan

[Micky]

My 125 reef I have had up for 3-4 years with only 1/2" to 3/4" of sand did very well... My 300 has only been up for about 4 months with a deep sand bed, never had a dsb before but we will see what happens.....

[Monster_13]

Originally posted by Jimmy_D
"DSB's are losing popularity"

Why do you state that?

It seems that many people with DSB's are switching.

[metamorphis]

Originally posted by Jimmy_D
"DSB's are losing popularity"

Why do you state that?

Because a year ago the DSB gods would have shut this thread down and banned the originator for blasphemy!

-KRIS

[DownUnder-Reefer]

Nice Emu Kris

[DownUnder-Reefer]

In reality though its only the people with DSB's who's tanks are not working who are switching.

People with thriving tanks are not siphoning out there DSB's.

There are also plenty of people writing to the forums asking how to install a DSB because there tanks (from what ever method) are not working.

So it really all does come down a lot to the dedication and viligance of the actual reef keeper.

[Monster_13]

The people getting rid of them have had bare bottom. (Such as Bomber) Then switched to DSB, now are switching back.

[DownUnder-Reefer]

Then I gather Bomber's tanks are not thriving ?

[Mark]

Originally posted by Jimmy_D
Go to any estuarine system or harbour or lagoon or anywhere that isnt continously pounded by waves and dig down, the sand will always be blackish and have a "DSB" smell to it.

And that would be great if I was setting up a mangrove/estuary tank. Based on the recommended sand grain size by the experts and the relatively low water turnover we have in our tanks compared to a real reef, the resulting DSB is more like a mud system. I find many negatives to it. For starters, I never noticed lower nutrient levels with DSB(the algae export made the most impact there for me). They are unsightly(just my humble and very biased opinion). They consume a large percentage of the tanks oxygen(watch out for a power failure...Also why many folks see better redox readings after yanking the DSB). And they are true nutrient sinks, where the only way I see the nutrients leaving is through biomass and nitrogen bubbles. I find algae export to be a much more efficient and direct form of nutrient removal.

That said, I do like the functionality of sand as a niche for critters. I also think I light covering of sand is prettier than a bare tank.

My approach to setting my new tank up plays a huge role in my opinion here. Up till now, I've always lived in apartments, and my living situation was never longterm. Now I live in a house and foresee myself living here for a decent amount of time. I want a reef system that I don't have to revamp every few years from old tank syndrome. I want to see what it's like to have a tank set up for many years. And the risks and downfalls of a DSB just don't fit that picture.

[Bomber]

Originally posted by Jimmy_D
Then I gather Bomber's tanks are not thriving ?

Bomber's tank (singular) at the house - the one he tried with a DSB - is definitely not thriving.

Bomber's tanks (plural) at work - the ones that are bare bottom - ARE thriving like a champ and have been for decades!

GOT IT!

[Bomber]

Stop comparing these closed systems to "nature".

Has anyone sat down and crunched any numbers on this? I figure with the size of my tank and what I have in it, I would need about the following to "support" what I have in "nature".

2 1/2 tons of worms
30000 asst snails
1000 cukes
70 urchins
8000 hermits

etc etc

and that's just critters and don't forget the critters need support too.

What you have is a dang good filter that's not only capable of storing organics but also capable of reducing those organics so you can store more.

[SPC]

Originally posted by Jimmy_D
In reality though its only the people with DSB's who's tanks are not working who are switching.

In reality, Dr Ron has recently stated that DSB's will need to be removed from our tanks and dispossed of after 4 to 5 years no matter whether they are working or not. Do you plan to follow his recommendation Jimmy?

So it really all does come down a lot to the dedication and viligance of the actual reef keeper.

Would you mind going into a bit more detail on what you consider to be "dedication and vigilance of the actual reefkeeper?"\
Steve

[usagolf]

I was talking to one of the guys at my LFS the other day and he said that he does maintenance on a bare bottom tank that has green star polyps all over the bottom now. He said it looks like grass when the current hits it. He said it makes it really easy to vacuum up anything because the polyps just close up. I wouldn’t do it, but it sounds pretty cool looking. I have a dsb now, but when I set up a larger tank eventually I will probably go with a ½� or so.

[DownUnder-Reefer]

My intention is in no way to start a flaming war. I just have my opinion and you have yours.

The thing that strikes me is that there is all of these "experts" on how bad DSB's are, they can quote this and that and the reason why they are such an evil.
What leaves me wondering though is if all these anti DSB experts have all this knowledge of just how bad DSB's are.........why did a lot of them rush to install them????

I have noticed that a lot of people love to get in on the bandwagon and rubbish this or that, take for instance RIO pumps, I can't believe how many times I have read how bad they are, then at the end the person says "though I have never actually owned one myself, I know how bad they are"

Now I'm not saying that RIO pumps are good or bad but you should be able to see where I'm coming from?

If you want bare bottom, have bare bottom, I am happy for you its YOUR hobby, if I want DSB, be happy for me.

[SPC]

Originally posted by Jimmy_D
My intention is in no way to start a flaming war. I just have my opinion and you have yours.

No need for this thread turning into a flame war unless someone decides to take it that way Jimmy, I know I don't have any such plans. Do you consider someone asking another, in a mature manner what they base their belief on as a "flame"? This is a discussion board Jimmy, part of discussion is asking others questions in order to clarify their positions. Maybe you have some good reasons why we should run a DSB, if so then we would like to know them so that we can make an informed decision based on all of the evidence.

The thing that strikes me is that there is all of these "experts" on how bad DSB's are, they can quote this and that and the reason why they are such an evil.
What leaves me wondering though is if all these anti DSB experts have all this knowledge of just how bad DSB's are.........why did a lot of them rush to install them????

Well I'm no expert Jimmy, but I can tell you that I installed one because I did not have the same knowledge as I do now.

Most I would imagine look at Dr Ron as "the" DSB expert and yet he has changed his opinion from a DSB can be run indefinitely, to change it out every 4 or 5 years. Why didn't he say this originally, he could have made some of our decisions whether to use a DSB a whole lot easier.

Steve