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#1
01/21/2007, 08:21 PM
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Offical "DO NOT BUY" list?
The powers that be, should have a sticky "Do Not Buy" list of fish that just do not fare well in home tanks...
IE Cleaner Wrasse's I am sure that many fish would be hotly debated as there are of course tank keepers that have had a Moorish Idol for years
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"It's a dog eat dog world and I feel like I am wearing milkbone underwear" |
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#2
01/22/2007, 03:16 PM
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I second this. I could have sworn there was a sticky somewhere, but I can't find it.
I would also expand this to include a second sticky for hard to keep corals if possible. This would probably be tougher list than fish, but useful. At least if people know that certain corals tend to not fare well, then they will know what they are getting into... |
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#3
01/23/2007, 07:16 AM
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there are a few of them over at the industry forums from over the years. I'll see if i can't find them. Also a list for inverts/corals would be good. non-photosynthetic gorgonians and dendroneptheas should be first on that list, imo.
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Our participation in the marine ornamental trade inherently makes us hypocrites. The least we can do is promote trade reform. Pressure your peers and LFS's to make it a priority. |
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#5
01/25/2007, 01:03 AM
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I will be the first one to agree that most Petco's have terrible saltwater departments and are irresponsible to their livestock, but there are Petco's out there with good saltwater employees who keep super healthy livestock. With Petcos and the other chains that carry saltwater livestock, the quality really depends on the people who work there.
The Petco near me recently eliminated their saltwater section. I believe it was a good idea. Everytime I went there I saw lots of dying fish and aparently neglected tanks. On the flip side, I have been to another Petco where the employee running the fish department was knowledgable and kept great livestock. I just don't think we can make a blanket statement to 'never' purchase anything from a Petco. Purchase from the good stores, and ignore the others. If you don't buy from them, they will likely close their saltwater department like the one in my area. |
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#6
01/25/2007, 02:15 PM
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I guess this is why there is not a real thread like this...
This was a question about a thread that could list commonly purchased animals (Moorish Idols, Cleaner Wrasses etc) that within a few posts turned into a bash job on a store that primarily sells dogfood.. Aclos3 is correct, you can not make a blanket statement against as chain store like that... and it was not intention of the thread to even do that.
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"It's a dog eat dog world and I feel like I am wearing milkbone underwear" |
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#7
01/25/2007, 10:53 PM
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scallops, ive never heard of them living very long in aquariums
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clowns, bi-color pseudo, coral beauty, yellow tang GBTA, crocea clam xenia, various polyps/zoa's, candy cane, tree leather, frogspawn, torch, various mushrooms, green/red plate, birdsnest |
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#8
01/26/2007, 10:05 AM
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Was anyone able to re-locate the lists from the industry regarding do-not-buy status?
I am particularly interested in hearing about sources like this. >Sarah
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"Seaweed is cool, seaweed is fun, it makes its food from the rays of the sun!" "Wild means everyone owns it, and no one owns it." ~3rd grader |
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#10
01/31/2007, 08:39 PM
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bi-color anglefish, very difficult
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#11
01/31/2007, 08:43 PM
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Feather Stars/Basket Stars definately a do not buy.
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#12
02/01/2007, 08:42 AM
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In order to make a Do-Not-Buy list, you have to first determine why it is not a DNB. Is it because the animals listed are hard to keep or impossible to keep? Moorish Idols are HARD to keep, but there are members here and I also know people who have kept them long term with great success.
What about Parrot fish, large Groupers, Sharks? Obviously very large fish, however, again, there are people here who have tanks big enough for these fish. A lot of large fish are not hard to keep. In fact, many of them are quite hardy. The problem is, many of them get big enough to swallow the tank they are currently in whole. What about fish that are hardy to water conditions, however their feeding habits are very hard to replicate? Mandarins and Cleaner Wrasses come to mind. Mandarins are hardy to water quality, but their main problem is starvation. Cleaner wrasses feed primaraly on parasites, and need to do so. Even the few aquarists who get their cleaners to eat other foods usually do not succeed with these (in a simular fashion as Mandarins). As for invertabrates... Most starfish should go on a DNB list becuase they usually do not get the proper diet that they need. All those "reef safe" chocolate chip stars seem to do well... but for some reason, none of the corals are doing well... What about the "harmless" green serpent star? Carnation Corals, many Gorgonians, and other filter feeders are sold every day to unsuspecting aquarists, only to die of starvation or taken over by algae. However, search this forum and you will find healthy, GROWING animals. IMO, DNB lists are bad. First, they never work. No one really follows them. Second, if a fish is hard to house in an aquarium, and NO ONE (not even the super-dee-duper aquarists) get one, no one will find out how to properly take care of it. It takes the study out of the hobby. Lets say someone figures out how to get cleaner wrasses to live years, and BREED. Then the collecting of cleaner wrasses drops, leaving the balance on reefs alone. Then we could restock reefs with these animals where they are in small numbers. Third, a much better idea would be "Do not buy UNLESS...: you have a large tank... your tank is full of copepods... you understand the full care procedures of this animal..." Ok, I think I'm done now... BUT I do have a side story. There is a store that has had a cleaner wrasse live for over 5 or 6 years now. It is not for sale. It is back in their QT area. Any fish that has any external problem is put into the 90 gallon tank, and pulled out a few days later, and put into a different QT tank, where very LIGHT medication is added.
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What RC has taught me: You’re ALWAYS wrong <5000 post: nOOb You MUST have Metal Halides DSP & BB are BOTH wrong Your skimmer sucks Your W/Cs regimen is wrong Your tank is too small for a Tang |
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#13
02/09/2007, 07:11 PM
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My opinion is that, even if you are able to keep a certain species in an aquarium, doesn't mean you should support the overall selling of this species. For example: I have a large tank and mounds and mounds of experience with caring for tangs, and other fish. I have the right conditions, a mature tank, and I decide to delve into trying to purchase an achilles tang (a tang known for being very hard to keep in an aquarium). Even if I am successful in keeping that tang, I have just contributed to the overall popularity of collecting a fish that the average person can not keep alive in an aquarium.
I believe a "do not buy" list is a great idea, in that it would discourage the selling and collecting of certain species that have proven time and time again to be only successfully kept by the experienced (and oftentimes also lucky) aquarist. |
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#14
02/09/2007, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
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Doesn't mean that no one can care for them. A person who understands the specific needs of the fish, and felt that he or she could meet them-- by all means-- buy it. The list should contain not only the species... but also, why it doesn't fare well in a home tank. I understand that some people will disagree with any particular list. However, it probably would benefit a lot of people to have this list to know what to avoid when they go the LFS. I am sure I have seen at least one such thread in the past that was very useful as a reference, and I can't find it. It would have been nice if it was a sticky. In almost any LFS, you will probably find a few of these animals on the list. Unless you really know what you are doing, it would probably be best to steer clear of them. Without the list, you may be relying on the advice of the LFS, which sometimes isn't all that great. |
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#15
02/09/2007, 09:17 PM
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How about a SERIOUSLY RECONSIDER PURCHASING list, for those points. This way, you can have your cake and eat it too. People can list the animal in question, and after that, give the reason why.
For example: Blue Linkia Starfish Linkia laevifata The Blue Linkia is notorious for shipping poorly. One anonymous distributer reported an estimated 90% mortality rate from collection to distribution center, even with the very best care in collection, transportation and acclimation. They are a beautiful and reef safe specimen, a wonder in a reef tank. However, their track record and history as a delicate species, even in the very best of conditions. Nurse Shark Ginglymostoma cirratum While a hardy and relatively easy to keep shark (although, all sharks can be difficult), the Nurse often grows FAR too large for most home aquariums (*although, I'm certain some of the guys and gals in the Large Tank Forum might argue otherwise judging from the size of some of their tanks!). The Nurse can easily get larger than 8 feet long. If you must get a shark, stick with a Marble, Coral Cat Shark, Epaulette, Banded Cat, or Bamboo Shark.
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"So long and thanks for all the fish!" |
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#16
02/09/2007, 10:14 PM
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Do not buy UNLESS...
Does ring a bit better I agree. As far as people not following the list? not sure I agree with that, many read and follow guides fairly well. The problem is "Which" guide they are using. Some distributors are aware of the issues but continue to sell the fish anyway. This is likely motivated by 2 things, some keepers are capable of care and profits. "Well if I do not sell it to them, someone else will" is a powerful inducement. Add to that some distributors are willing to "fudge" parameters so that their "Yellow Tang" can survive in a 50G tank and the other store says 75G. Retailers need to be somewhat accountable and the only way that happens is places like this with good exposure. There will always be a store that sells snowflake eels to people with nano cubes however. Calling those stores out may or may not work (more likely not IMO) A standardized chart is sounding more and more like a need in this hobby... Now how and who to get it endorsed as "gospel" 
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"It's a dog eat dog world and I feel like I am wearing milkbone underwear" |
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#17
02/10/2007, 06:54 AM
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There should be a criteria of rating fish as easy to keep. I can't think of a fish that does not live at least ten years in the sea, most of them live twice that long. Keeping a fish three or four years in a tank is IMO not a success. If we can't keep a fish at least somewhat close to it's natural lifespan than have failed with that fish.
Paul |
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#18
02/11/2007, 11:06 AM
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Hey all....I'm not supportive of a "Do Not Buy" list...but I am supportive of a "Very Difficult to Keep" list. But I'm sure you are aware that things you put on there will always have exceptions and therefore, drive arguments and disagreements with folks. You will never, ever get a fully endorsed and agreed upon list of either difficult fish, or tank size recommendations for animals.
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I would think it would be best to break something like this into separate lists...Fish, inverts, corals..Thereby allowing the specific lists to be transferred into other appropriate forums. Quote:
Not to compare religion to this hobby, but the range of opinions and "experts" here is about as vast as religion. I say, you, the members compose a list based on the vast experience of this board and that is more of a research "bible" than any expert endorsement. My $.02.
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Mike RC Staff "So, Mike was right." - MalHavoc |
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#19
02/11/2007, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
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Mike |
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#20
02/11/2007, 09:51 PM
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While I would agree that it is unlikely that reef enthusiasts will ever restock the worlds oceans, it is useful to keep in mind that our hobby has had a detrimental effect on some species. Cleaner wrasse are a commonly mentioned fish, because they don't appear in great concentrations, but were relatively easy to capture. So their capture visibly impacted the waters in which they were commonly taken. You hear the same argument about anemones, actually.
The problem with making a thread about how to keep certain fish vs a 'Difficult to keep' list, is that it would be very long and detailed (harder to write, and more time consuming to read through). Aquarists could skim a list of fish and invertebrates they should stay away a lot easier. If they see a fish or invertebrate they like on the list, if they still want to keep it, they can probably do a search and find out more information on what others experiences have been. Last edited by ratherbediving; 02/11/2007 at 09:57 PM. |
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#21
02/12/2007, 12:50 AM
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Most online retailers have a chart saying how hard a fish is to keep, and if you google the name of a fish you get more then enough info. Everyone should research every fish they buy, having a list of hard to keep fish would be more then welcome on my end though, as long as there is a reason WHY they are hard to keep
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It's not how much is costs that matters, it's how much you told your wife it costs! |
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#22
02/12/2007, 01:11 AM
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Reef Protection International (RPI) has been working on their version of cards to be distributed in stores, not sure of their current status
http://www.reefprotect.org/fish_guide.htm# There are also some local efforts that provide cards that break down the reasons why one should not keep certain species, such as tank sizes, food costs for adults, and electricity to maintain such large tanks, but nothing large scale yet along those lines that I've seen.
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Barrett L. Christie Senior Aquarist- Quarantine A Public Aquarium |
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#23
02/12/2007, 06:14 AM
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I would imagine that if we made a list of fish names and we all noted how long we kept a particular species eventually we will see a trend and we could figure out the average lifespan of certain fish in captivity.
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#24
02/12/2007, 08:11 AM
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My Reasoning for the cleaner wrasse was like that of giant clams. Years ago, they were endangered, and to even try and keep one was ludacris. Now, they are being bred relitively easily, and are being restocked in the wild where needed. Everyone knows of those inspirational posters that say "Leadership" and has a short sentace under it and the big picture of an eagle or something.... then there are the funny ones, and one of my favorite funny ones is "If you don't try, Your guarrenteed not to fail!" Well, I think that is true, but if you don't try, you can't succeed either. Having an outright "do not buy" list is a bad idea for most fish. I would say that there are some fish that no one other than public aquariums should have (Such as sharks). However having a "do not buy unless" list may be better. I guess sharks would be classified under "Do not buy unless you have a tank the size of a store." In my area, I am sad to say I have seen a store that regularly carried nurse sharks. I don't know if they die or if people buy them, but I know that they won't go into a proper aquarium. Hmm.... I KNOW, I want a Giraffe!!! 
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What RC has taught me: You’re ALWAYS wrong <5000 post: nOOb You MUST have Metal Halides DSP & BB are BOTH wrong Your skimmer sucks Your W/Cs regimen is wrong Your tank is too small for a Tang |
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#25
02/12/2007, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
This thread is becoming more and more of the challenge to me, and I like challenges. So, how 'bout it. You guys throw what you think as poor captive specimen candidates, for whatever reasons you might have to think that the animal is a bad choice. I just ask that you guys keep it pretty concise and to the point, and I'll make something pretty out of it. Like: Moorish Idol : not hardy, poor shipper, specialized diet. Nurse Shark : tank buster.
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"So long and thanks for all the fish!" |
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