Palytoxins from zoanthids IS harmful!! Pics included

crazy_reefing · #1 09/25/2007, 05:25 PM

First of all, my wife typed this for me. You will see why when you read below.
Well, I have read in the past about Palytoxin and I also saw that there has been contraversy over whether it's bad or not, if it does create problems, etc.
Here's my proof that it is harmful and it's not from one particular type of paly.
During my searching on the topic I found this explaination on Palytoxin Wikipedia Palytoxin Explaination Notice how it says

Quote:

Palytoxin, isolated from soft coral, is considered to be one of the most toxic non-peptide substances known, second only to Maitotoxin.

Any way, the reason I am posting this is because last night while I was fragging some zoanthids I was squirted directly in the eye with zoa juice. Immediately I started getting painful burning. My eye felt dry yet it was watering a lot. I rinsed it out and a small blister formed on my eye. I also had slight blurred vision. This morning I woke up and my eye swelled as though someone just punched me. My eye was bright red and the blister grew about 75% larger in size. I also have temporary loss of vision. I went to the ER (funny since the doctors probably thought I was nuts). I took all the info. I could find online about Palytoxin and I took the zoanthid with that I was fragging.
The procedure I had to go through was the ER doctors had to do pH testing on my eye (I chuckled when they told me because all I could think of was doing a pH test on my tank). They also put numbing drops and viewed my eye with UV lights and they also ran other toxin tests. I have to see an eye specialist an a few days to be checked for possible further damage.
The ER doctors said that I received a Corneal Abrasion from the toxin. Which means the toxin burned the clear coating on my eye! I was given antibiotics that I must drip into my eye every 6 hours until the bottle is used. It has been a few hours since I have been to the ER. My eye is still very red, swollen, dry but watering and painful burning. The blister has since popped but it caused the clear coating to look like it melted.
Here are pics of my eye
You can't see the swelling much but this is as far as I am able to open my eyelid without using my fingers

This is my eye

My eye again

It's hard to see but the part inside the yellow circled area is where the clear part of my eye was "melted" from the Palytoxin.

So, the message of the day is...............................

ALWAYS USE SAFTEY GLASSES OR A FACE SHIELD WHEN WORKING WITH CORALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The situation I am in right now is very painful and the doctors say it could take about a week before I am over it.

robcropper · #2 09/25/2007, 05:38 PM

Geez, Hope you get better real soon. Never would have thought something so beautiful in a tank could be soo deadly.

Lytehouse · #3 09/25/2007, 05:41 PM

Take it easy.

Thanks and great of you to post for the rest of us.

edwing206 · #4 09/25/2007, 05:53 PM

Ouch. Hope you feel better soon.

Runfrumu · #5 09/25/2007, 06:02 PM

Couldn't that be salt burn? Or a bacterial infection? there could be all kinds of nasty things lurking in salt water. I was under the impression that if you got a dose of palytoxin you wouldn't be alive to tell the tale.

BTW, careful what you believe on wiki, anyone can edit that stuff.

Good luck on your recovery!!

ficklefins · #6 09/25/2007, 07:07 PM

I had the same thing happen to me, but my doctor had no idea on how to treat it. Good luck and keep us updated.

I now keep a pair of safety goggles near my tank.

crazy_reefing · #7 09/25/2007, 07:13 PM

First, thank you to those that have expressed their concerns.

The doctor reviewed the information I had given him. He said that the culprit was not due to saltwater or bacteria. From some kind of toxic screening they did they said that it was due to the palytoxin.
If it was from saltwater then wouldn't anyone that swims in the ocean get results like this if water would enter their eyes? Not arguing just trying to make a point.

The only way you can die from palytoxin is if a large amount enters your body or if palytoxin is injected directly into your bloodstream.

Here is more info. regarding palytoxin (not from wiki)
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/conten...t/172/3982/495

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...indexed=google

Mr James · #8 09/25/2007, 08:52 PM

Wow, A. Calfo spoke of this in his propagation book. I knew he was serious, but wow!! Hope things return to normal!! Now I have to wear safety glasses when fragging??

surfnvb7 · #9 09/25/2007, 09:31 PM

i would bet money, that if you were fragging ANY coral and it squirted you in the eye, that the resulting eye infection would be pretty similar.

IMO....the ER doctor doesn't know squat when having to identify a certain neurotoxin vs another toxin. they don't have any tests that would determine if it is Palytoxin, or is some other kind of toxin. (no tests exist outside a highly specialized research lab).

all they know is "something" has broken down the mucos membrane of your eyes. that something could be any number of compounds contained in zoas.

theres no debate over whether palytoxin is bad or not......it is.......DUH......

the debate is about how do you know if its palytoxin or some other kind of toxin/slime actually causing these symptoms. and which type of zoas have how much palytoxin in them?

your assumption that you can only die of palytoxin if it somehow directly gets into your body or blood steam is false...thats not what the link you have says.......it just states that that particular LD50 rate is by intravenous injection. the LD50 rate could be different by other means, such as ingestion, or absorption (i.e. the LD50 rate would probably be higher).

and, 0.15micrograms per kilograms is not a "large amount" like you stated. this is a VERY VERY VERY tiny amount, we are talking in terms of a drop.

also, palytoxin does NOT primarily cause numbness, itching, swelling, etc. etc. it ONLY reacts with a certain receptor found in the heart, which shuts down something called the sodium potassium pump which controls neural (i.e. electrical) impulses to the heart. toxins are VERY specific in what they react with, and if they dont have a receptor to bind to, the secondary effects are purely of irritation which is what any foreign molecule would cause.

your symtoms are not specific in any way to palytoxin, any toxin, coral slime can cause these kind of problems and secondary infections.

unless your ER doctor consulted with an expert toxicologist who does research on identifying these type of things, and subsequently ran a sample in a mass spec, there is no real way to know for sure if it was actually a molecule of palytoxin causing your problems, or some other kind of peptide toxin.

all the ER doctor can do is treat the symtoms. and then go off the information you give them and look it up in a book or google it, and then come up with a hypothesis, which doesn't necessarily mean it is 100% correct.

ER doctors are not research scientists by any means....I would put up my knowledge on toxicology and biochemistry against your average ER doc any day of the week.

however, sounds like the ER docs did get you the help you need. good to see you are doing ok, and make sure to wear eye protection next time when messing with any corals in your tank.

Conceyted · #10 09/25/2007, 09:36 PM

oh wow man. please keep us posted. I hope you turn out okay. There was a place discussed at Macna this year that has doctors on duty that you can call by phone that will help you out with whatever problem you have marine related. I didnt catch the number or name but I am sure many people on here have it. It is apparently there for divers but it was given out as a tip for saltwater aquarists too.

vessxpress1 · #11 09/25/2007, 10:38 PM

I've had zoos squirt me in the eye and nothing happened. I was worried about it though. Guess I got lucky. Every time you mess with them you think, "what are the chances?" Well, I don't mess with them very often and don't have that many, but they got me.

Thanks for posting. You cannot stress enough the importance of safety glasses when messing with these things. Or at the least, keep as much distance away from your eyes as possible.

ViPeR_930 · #12 09/25/2007, 11:38 PM

The exact same thing happened to me about a month and a half ago, even with the melting as you're experiencing. I also doubt it's caused by palytoxin. As mentioned, there's a heck of a lot of other nasty stuff in saltwater and especially the coral's slime.

Peter Eichler · #13 09/26/2007, 03:08 AM

I agree with Surfn. Regardless of what caused it, good luck with your recovery!

Mr James · #14 09/26/2007, 11:51 AM

Wow surfnvb7, that's some good stuff there!! I really enjoy reading information like that, which is partially why one of my favorite authors is Robin Cook, (reading the book "Critical" as we speak). You ever read his work, he does medical mysteries?? Sorry to digress.

jellygeee · #15 09/26/2007, 01:51 PM

Sorry to hear what happened.

Thanks for posting the message and hope you recover soon.

Johnsteph10 · #16 09/26/2007, 02:28 PM

As an ER doc, I can tell you that you simply got a corneal abrasion...it is NOT from palytoxin (one of the most hyped urban legends out there about SW aquaria).

You likely got some SW in your eye...rubbed it with the foreign substance present and gave yourself a minor corneal abrasion. Sometimes it allows a secondary infection to start as well.

Corneal abrasions can be very painful and very irritating. Luckily, as long as their is no superinfection, they heal fairly quickly.

wsun083 · #17 09/26/2007, 03:56 PM

i was bit by a brisleworm and my finger swelled to almost double what it normally is. it was severely infected. it's been 2 months now and when i bend it completely it still stings a little.

lesson to be learned: BE CAREFUL WHEN PUTTING HANDS IN TANK!!!

JeffReef · #18 09/26/2007, 03:58 PM

From a google search...

Palytoxin: essensial data

http://www.cbwinfo.com/Biological/Toxins/Palytoxin.html

crazy_reefing · #19 09/26/2007, 05:10 PM

Thank you to those concerned. I'm still in a lot of pain and having fun making others type for me

InADream · #20 09/26/2007, 05:18 PM

Sorry to hear about what happened crazy_reefing, but I also have to say thanks... I recently read your post and felt really bad for you.. Well today i decided to do a little maintenace on my tank and frag a set of zoos i have... I started fragging when i remember reading this thread... I immediately put on some glasses and went back to fragging... Luckily enough i had the glasses because I accidentally squeezed a polyp and out shot a liquid... Good thing i had the glasses on...

Not trying to sound bad, but by you posting this it made me think a little more... Really sorry to hear, and I hope you recover soon...
Enjoy those new typing fingers..

thanks Again

Dream

surfnvb7 · #21 09/26/2007, 05:18 PM

just out of curiosity.......is your other eye ok? fingers/hands ok?

if so.....why is someone else typing for you?

i'm not trying to make a mockery out of your injury....but someone sounds like they are milking the attention.....lol

delsol650 · #22 09/26/2007, 06:06 PM

Sorry to hear bro. that happend to me too... hurts like hell and burning/itchy pain.. I also had massive headache and body aches... the worst are the hugh palythoa grandis.. they slime as if they were in "NICKALODIAN" ( forgive the spelling as I dont watch the show )

gflat65 · #23 09/26/2007, 06:17 PM

Abuse em, crazy_reefin

. Hope it heals up for you, soon. No pain meds?

Great info, surfn and JeffReef. Urban legends die hard, huh, especially when propagated by those who speak with scientific pretext (I've expressed my angst on this subject before, so I digress)... With so little actually known about palytoxin (and many other things in this hobby), it's interesting to hear so many absolutes and definites. Think of how many people in just the US frag zoas on a daily basis with no documented cases of death/serious issues (and it sounds like death would most likely be the outcome of a Palytoxin poisoning)...

surfnvb7 · #24 09/26/2007, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gflat65
Abuse em, crazy_reefin. Hope it heals up for you, soon. No pain meds?

Great info, surfn and JeffReef. Urban legends die hard, huh, especially when propagated by those who speak with scientific pretext (I've expressed my angst on this subject before, so I digress)... With so little actually known about palytoxin (and many other things in this hobby), it's interesting to hear so many absolutes and definites. Think of how many people in just the US frag zoas on a daily basis with no documented cases of death/serious issues (and it sounds like death would most likely be the outcome of a Palytoxin poisoning)...

my theory, is that palytoxin just doesn't exist in the high concentrations we expect in our every day zoanthids in the hobby trade.

there have never been any studies on how much palytoxin is in zoanthid A, vs zoanthid B, etc. etc.

or how much palytoxin is in a species of zoanthid vs a species of paly.

OR how much palytoxin is in a particular zoa in one region, vs a zoa in another region (i.e. carribean vs. pacific origins).

palytoxin is contained inside the zoa tissue membranes, its not like a poison sac or poison tipped needle like in most corals where the toxin is concentrated into one area. its just *there*, and it isn't a active transport system that distributes the toxin to an invader, otherwise we'd see zoas try to *squirt* their enemies when it senses danger (as opposed to it squirting out seawater when fragged).

also, *most* of the research studies around palytoxin, the toxin is isolated from a few specific palythoa matts or seaweed. NOT from your regular run of the mill aquarium trade zoanthids, most likely due to the toxin being in much diluted concentrations in these zoas, thus not really worth harvesting for toxin isolation purposes.

crazy_reefing · #25 09/26/2007, 09:23 PM

InADream - I'm glad to hear that you remembered to wear something for safety. That is the reason why I posted my experience with pictures. I was hoping to help someone else before they had the same happen.

gflat65 - no, no pain meds. Unfortunately. All I was given was antibiotics. I wish I could have some of the numbing drops they used in the ER

surfnvb7 - Thanks for your concern in regards to my other eye and other parts of my body being ok. Yes, the rest of my body was not injured during this episode. This injury has made it hard to type/read because there is more strain put on the uninjured eye since I am unable to properly focus with both eyes as normal due to the temporary loss of vision in the injured eye. Plus, if you must know, I naturally have poor vision in the good eye anyway. I'm not here to argue or cause any problems but here's my 2 cents. If you would really like to know about my situation I suggest you go and put some zoa juice, saltwater or whatever you think went into my eye into your own eye, wait a day and get on the computer and see how well you could type and/or read. At that said, this thread wasn't put here for any one person to be judging the other. I put this thread on here with what my proof is. You said that there hasn't been any experiements done on the common zoanthid/palythoa in regards to this toxin, right? And you said that you would match your knowledge in regards to this topic against any ER doctor any day, right? I think it would be great for someone like you to do research on this topic and present it to the majority so that others will get the needed information that you or some of the other knowledgable people are saying they know or think they know or something like that. I'm not being smart I really think that if this is such a debated topic then someone really really needs to figure out the truth in regards to palytoxin in any coral especially zoanthids.

Sorry for the windy response but I needed to get that out. IMO it doesn't really matter what went into my eye. I know what happened to me and I know what the outcome was for not wearing something for safety.