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#76
12/06/2007, 10:11 PM
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wikipedia definition of a REFUGIUM:
A refugium is an appendage to a marine, brackish, or freshwater fish tank in which water flows in, baffles slow it down to allow a certain amount of stagnation, and flows back out into the tank. Sizes vary from as small as a shoe box to as large as an entire aquarium. Inside the semi-stagnant portion, various suppositories can be placed to allow biological filtration to take place. The items depend on the type of tank, but common items include crabs, snails, or other creatures that will break down solid waste, or certain algae or live plant species to reduce nitrate and phosphate levels. To get the maximum biological filtration (through uptake of nutrients by macroalgae/mangroves), strong lighting can be used on the refugium. The refugium light cycle can be operated opposite to the main tank, in order to keep the total system pH more stable (due to the uptake of acid-forming CO2 by the refugium during its daylight hours). So what i understand that since my macro is growing...obviously my macro is consuming something right? so how is it now working? |
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#77
12/06/2007, 10:24 PM
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QUOTE // ( Anyway, my point is we should not have to google and search for your reference. The bottom line is, as someone purporting factual information, the burden of proof is on you and you should make it as easy as possible for us to believe you. )
and you act like this is a court of law ! i could care less if you believe me or not , because some one that is interested enough to find out more info on my statements, i have given where to look ! you do not pay me to list every link i have pertaining to my statements , but you sure expect me to walk you thru it all . all you all have shown here is how when one doesn't agree with you or your methods the lynch mob is sent out !
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king of the brown sps's |
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#79
12/06/2007, 11:00 PM
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This is a very good discussion and should either continue or stop by staying on topic. Insults and jibes aside. There is a great deal of experience and information to be displayed and shared and I believe that it can be done without losing integrity of the subject.
I believe that in a situation where there is new information brought up that the others are unaware of then the one who brought the information up should qualify the validity of the info by documentation or stating that it is opinion or experience.
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Success is not measured by the person who has the most but by the person that needs the least!! |
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#80
12/06/2007, 11:44 PM
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Back on topic. Here's some proof that a skimmerless tank can thrive. 6 year old 120 gal soft/lps tank. 7-8 fish. 10 gal fuge w/chaeto. 3-4 20% water changes per yr max. no testing, no chemicals added. When a fish dies it stays in the tank as i can rarely find it. As many in the community can attest to, everything grows extremely well and I frag often. The maintenance of a tank is simply not enjoyable to me hence the absence of sps. This setup won't work for a heavy bio load or sps corals, but most people in this hobby don't get to that level anyways.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showp...p?photo=232860 |
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#81
12/07/2007, 01:18 AM
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Ok Spanky Jr., I’ll play. Be nice.
Freshwater Microbiology: Biodiversity and Dynamic Interactions of ... By David C. Sigee The referenced section of text, page 213 if the document fails to load correctly, is talking about freshwater phytoplankton but is still valid for this discussion. The mechanics involved are basically the same for marine micro and macro species. Carbon, nitrogen, phosphorus, and a host of other compounds do “leak” out of algae. Compared to mass the percentage of leakage in phytoplankton is small but it is my understanding that the proportion increases significantly with higher algae. Exudate is a better word than leak. Stimulation of Bacterial DNA Synthesis by Algal Exudates in Attached Algal-Bacterial Consortia, this is an experiment that shows how certain bacteria living on the surface of algae can utilize the above mention exudates. An example that everyone should here should be able to understand. It is the energy rich exudates that coral polyps utilize from Zooxanthellae. Unless you’re paying for access to some serious marine science oriented sites this is about the best you can do. I did find a paper about phosphate leaching from saltwater marsh plants but I’m too tired for that much reading. Maybe more tomorrow.
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John Reiter-owner FISH and other ICHTHY stuff “Because I'm hard you will not like me, but the more you hate me the more you will learn!” – Gunnery Sgt. Hartman |
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#82
12/07/2007, 08:48 AM
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I think both the refugium and without works.. No, I don't have any proof.. But all you have to do is look on these forums and you'll see lots of people running successful tanks with both methods.. There is no right and wrong way in this hobby, we all know that.. It's the same thing as the skimmer vs skimmerless discussions.. There are some worst ways of running a saltwater tank, yes.. But if your method keeps your corals and creatures healthy and happy, then let other people have their methods.. Just because it's different from your's doesn't mean it's wrong.. If I give advice (which I don't do much of yet since I'm still fairly new in this hobby) I try to point at that this is what works for me..
Yes, I have a refugium and currently no skimmer.. I currently have hair algae because I haven't been able to keep up with my water changes, I've probably fed too much lately, and I think it's still cycling.. But my corals are thriving and growing.. Since the refugium is the only thing I have (other than water changes) then I definitely think it is helping.. No, it's not the only thing I use since I usually have regular water changes.. But I do believe it helps.. Besides, we're all noobies when it comes to try and simulate mother nature.. 
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#83
12/07/2007, 09:35 AM
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Kitty, you are correct. My point of the discussion is that, like anything correctly used, refugiums remove certain undesireable "stuff" from our aquariums. The net export of undesireable "stuff" makes a refugium a valuable part of my total system.
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Click on my red house to see my 390 build thread. |
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#84
12/07/2007, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
On the subject of soft corals tanks and filtration, many softies like leathers, mushrooms, etc. will "survive" in nutrient rich tanks so they are not a good gauge when trying to prove that a refugium on a skimmerless tank is providing sufficient filtration. Is it better than not having any filtration at all? Sure if the algae is being pruned on a regular basis but unless you are running a fuge the size of your main tank it is not filtering as efficiently as most other methods. I would also recommend that everyone who uses RC as the be all end all of reef keeping be careful and not read to much into the "science" that gets thrown around by many so-called experts. Most of it changes on a day to day basis and is theoretical at best when it is applied to maintaining life in a small glass box. The most successful hobbyists seem to be the ones who are able keep their tanks stable, are consistant with their husbandry and have a decent understanding of the actual biological and chemical reaction that are happening in their tank regardless of what method they use. Lastly, for the record, I have seen GWACO's SPS tank and I can vouch that he knows what he is doing.
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#85
12/07/2007, 05:46 PM
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first , let me apoligize to any that found some of my earlier post offensive , we all have those days once in awhile .
QUOTE// (Ok Spanky Jr., I’ll play. Be nice.) < i assume this is a compliment ! l.o.l. HI YA JOHN! i haven't heard from you in awhile ! thanks for joining in and providing some very good links , as you know when it comes time to find the hardcore scentific papers the door is usually closed until you make a payment , again thanks ! boy, its been awhile since i've been to the store , it may be time for a trip up there ! and let me just say this ! with your knowledge and integrity anyone who does not shop at your store has got to be off their rocker ! triggerfish , thanks for also joining in ! as someone that shares the same attributes as john you should be respected also ! we need to meet up for lunch one of these days so i can straighten you out on a few things though ! o.k. let me get back on track ! if you want to keep a refugium , by all means have at it ! i just feel its just something else that has the potental to go south very quickly . and if you hate doing good husbandry on your tank than why bother with a second tank you WILL have to maintain . hopefully with what trigger , john and i have brought to the table ,someone like the original poster will do alittle more homework before making a decission on whether there is actual value in adding a fuge !
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king of the brown sps's Last edited by gwaco; 12/07/2007 at 05:52 PM. |
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#86
12/07/2007, 06:56 PM
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here is a very good reference . forget the abstract and open up the pdf file .
www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi...1979.tb01659.x
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king of the brown sps's Last edited by gwaco; 12/07/2007 at 07:04 PM. |
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#87
12/07/2007, 10:58 PM
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Yes, I know what the original poster had asked and I gave account of my limited experience.. That's all I can do is state what has gone on with my tank.. I can not give my account of a tank without a refugium simply because I have not done that.. Or I would have given my 'opinion' on both methods.. I assumed that's why the original poster came here to ask opinions.. If he wants more then there are lots of sites with forums and more information on the internet to make your head spin.. Yes, you have to judge for yourself what you believe and what works for you.. But I was also saying that there is no one way to do this hobby.. I also never said gwaco didn't know what he was talking about.. I also referenced RC because we are all here for information and there are a lot of experienced people here to learn from.. Like gwaco.. I'm sure the original poster will find his advice and knowledge helpful too..
No, I doubt very greatly that it will make nuisance algae go away.. But I do believe it helps as part of a well maintained system.. Last edited by Kittikity; 12/07/2007 at 11:08 PM. |
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#88
12/08/2007, 07:58 PM
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I personaly have a refugium and I will never go with out one again, but I will say I just went to a new friends house and saw his tank and wow what color and growth. Well my point is he dosn't have a refugium. That being said as I said above I will always have one.
Roger
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Click on the little red house to see my setup Don't keep track of how much money you spend on your system. You will enjoy it much more that way :-) |
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#89
12/08/2007, 09:31 PM
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Quote:
also what type of setting is your tank set up to replicate ?
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king of the brown sps's |
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#90
12/08/2007, 09:38 PM
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quote from kittikity / But I do believe it helps as part of a well maintained system..
a well maintain system will not have an algae problem , hence no need for a fuge !
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king of the brown sps's |
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#91
12/08/2007, 10:04 PM
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Quote:
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Click on my red house to see my 390 build thread. |
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#92
12/08/2007, 10:05 PM
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I had no refugium in my first two tanks and I had a nitrate and phosphates were hight on the test kits but I was running fish only and a softie reef tank.
Now with the new tank I have SPS dominated and yes I have had the refugium since day one. I don't know for sure if it is why I have 0 nitrats and .03 phosphates but I don't see a reason not to have one. In other words I don't see what it hurts. as far as were it is I took a 55 gallon tank and made a sump out of it and 27 gallons is my refugium with 400gal per hour going through it. It has been in place for 5 months. Roger
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Click on the little red house to see my setup Don't keep track of how much money you spend on your system. You will enjoy it much more that way :-) |
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#93
12/08/2007, 10:08 PM
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I agree I am not using it to stop algae. just remove nutiants
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Click on the little red house to see my setup Don't keep track of how much money you spend on your system. You will enjoy it much more that way :-) |
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#95
12/08/2007, 10:09 PM
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link is dead. repost.
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Click on the little red house to see my setup Don't keep track of how much money you spend on your system. You will enjoy it much more that way :-) |
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#96
12/09/2007, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
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#97
12/10/2007, 10:09 AM
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Mangroves and other marine plants absorb and metabolize the nitrates and CO2 when exposed to light. At night though (or when your refugium lights turn off) it releases the CO2 back into the water. Photsynthesis uses the CO2 from the water, air, and the citric acid cycle to produce Oxygen.
The nitrates though, are absorbed and then released as nitrites. Therefor, anyone who has undergone the nitrogen cycle (hopefully everyone) has the required bacteria to handle this. http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1092268 Refugiums (with mangroves in it) make protein skimmers obsolete over a period of time. http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/nit...a/aa051398.htm Most LFS will not tell you this because that is a loss in sales for them. I have a protein skimmer myself, only because I do not have enough room in my current sump for a refugium. I hope this information helps with this thread. Mike btw for those of you checking credentials, I am a 3rd year biology student at UCF.
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Life sucks, get a helmet!!!!! |
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#99
12/10/2007, 10:48 AM
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flasher1,
about.com articles are pretty much useless as far as accuracy goes. They generally are written by people who have either never had a SW tank or are newbies at best. Some of them are just down right comical on what they suggest including the one you referenced. |
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#100
12/10/2007, 10:58 AM
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trigger- so what are you disagreeing with? Mangroves dont absorb phophates and nitrates? Or that they will make skimmers obsolete over time?
As far as absorbing phosphates, phosphates are used in the production of ATP for use in photosynthesis. ATP (Adenosine Triphophate) is then reduced into ADP (Adenosine Diphosphate) in which a phosphate is added to make it ATP again. So what are you debating as I am unsure. I am simply using it as a reference since there is no link to my biology book online that you are able to see.
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Life sucks, get a helmet!!!!! Last edited by flasher1; 12/10/2007 at 11:09 AM. |
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