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#26
10/27/2007, 03:10 PM
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#27
10/27/2007, 03:41 PM
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spectrum plays a large role ime. here's some good reading http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/10/aafeature2 i suggest taking time to check out the whole series...it's interesting stuff and goes into detail. it seems dana also believes spectrum plays a large role
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red|house|blog "i like bubbly, and i love animals - so it works out well" "there are a lot of people out there who think they have a modern house simply because they have alot of steel in it" |
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#28
10/29/2007, 06:48 PM
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Hahn, I believe this is because of the photosynthesis curve. What I remember from biology was that ratios of spectrum matching the photsynthesis curve gave the highest growth per photon. In a simplified example per the curve you need 10 photons of blue and 4 photons of red to synthesis a molecule sugar ( for arguments sake). If you have 100 photons of blue and 4 photons of red, you still only generate one molecule sugar. This would explain why a high PAR narrow spectrum has poor growth. This is going back 15 years and I could be wrong. |
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#29
10/29/2007, 07:17 PM
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No, not really. First, take that 'photosynthesis curve' from terrestrial plants and toss it. It doesnt apply with corals. Each coral has a different 'curve', as well as the ability to adapt that curve to the light available... which makes sense since corals cant always pick where they are going to end up, and their spectrum will vary with regards to depth.
The reason, just like with blue and UV, is that as you go shorter and shorter in wavelength is that the energy increases. Simply put, blue light contains more energy per photon than red. Different corals respond to different spectrums differently. IME, the best thing to do is provide a full range of light, and the coral can pick & choose which spectrums are best.
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#30
10/30/2007, 12:23 AM
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Aloha all,
My 2 cents worth - blue light induces a chemical change in xanthophylls (diadinoxanthin and diadinoxanthin) - see the absorption curve for this pigments in UNESCO's Phytoplankton Pigment book by S. Jefferies. The more intense the blue light, the more conversion of xanthophylls, which dumps excessive light energy as non-radiant heat. This conversion can be overwhelmed by excessive blue light. It's not necessarily that blue light is inherently 'bad' - it is when excessive blue radiation overcomes the protective devices offered by xanthophyll photopigments. In other words, 'good photoinhibition' (dynamic) becomes 'bad' chronic photoinhibition. It doesn't help that even recent literature (Eric B., for example) offers incorrect advice. Dana |
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#31
11/03/2007, 02:51 AM
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http://www.reefs.org/library/talklog...ee_060202.html
I am sure you guys have seen this one as well. I had been thinking about this topic recently and looking for some info. Thanks!!
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#32
11/04/2007, 10:08 PM
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But Dana, excessive blue light is synonamous with excessively intense light, no?
Also, help me if you would to understand how that should relate to the production of coral pigments? I mean, saturated photosynthesis using white light vs. saturated using white light that is heavier on the blue end gets to the same result in terms of photosynthesis. I see no reason that the corals should produce more of any given animal pigment in response to increased blue light as compared to bright full-spectrum light. cj
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FSM ~ Touched by His noodly appendage ~ |
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#33
11/07/2007, 01:18 AM
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Aloha CJ,
>>But Dana, excessive blue light is synonamous with excessively intense light, no?<< Hmmm… No. Warmer color (red for example) is associated with the spectral signature of shallow depths (along with other wavelengths of course) where light is most intense on real reefs. >>Also, help me if you would to understand how that should relate to the production of coral pigments? I mean, saturated photosynthesis using white light vs. saturated using white light that is heavier on the blue end gets to the same result in terms of photosynthesis. I see no reason that the corals should produce more of any given animal pigment in response to increased blue light as compared to bright full-spectrum light.<< Are we talking about the protective xanthophylls? Fluorescence? Chromoproteins? The ‘Coral Coloration’ series is over 250 pages now, so please help me out by being a tad more specific. Thanks, Dana |
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#34
11/07/2007, 01:55 AM
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Aloha Dana,
Aloha CJ, >>But Dana, excessive blue light is synonamous with excessively intense light, no?<< Hmmm… No. Warmer color (red for example) is associated with the spectral signature of shallow depths (along with other wavelengths of course) where light is most intense on real reefs. Yes, I should have said more clearly what I meant. The effects of intense blue light should be nearly synonamous with the effects of intense while light on photosynthesis. Of course this is not exactly the same as there are issues associated with transfer efficiency to the chla in the centers of photosynthesis of PSII and blue light ends up producing a bit more heat than other, lower wavelenghts, but practically speaking, once a photon is absorbed and transferred to a center of photosynthesis, the initial wavelength of that photon is immaterial. >>Also, help me if you would to understand how that should relate to the production of coral pigments? I mean, saturated photosynthesis using white light vs. saturated using white light that is heavier on the blue end gets to the same result in terms of photosynthesis. I see no reason that the corals should produce more of any given animal pigment in response to increased blue light as compared to bright full-spectrum light.<< Are we talking about the protective xanthophylls? Fluorescence? Chromoproteins? The ‘Coral Coloration’ series is over 250 pages now, so please help me out by being a tad more specific. Thanks, Dana Here I mean the production of any colorful coral pigment and mean to exclude zooxanthellae pigments. That would include fluorescent proteins as well as chromoproteins. If these pigments are meant as a sort of sunscreen for the zoox. I see no reason that their production should be substantially different due to a difference in light spectrum (within reason--something analagous to what we see from hobbyist bulbs). If the proteins are not involved in a process like this (e.g., GFP) I see no reason they should be affected by light spectrum whatsoever (excluding UV, for obvious reasons). Chris
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FSM ~ Touched by His noodly appendage ~ |
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#35
11/07/2007, 04:02 PM
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Aloha Chris,
>>The effects of intense blue light should be nearly synonamous with the effects of intense while light on photosynthesis. << If by ‘intense’ we mean blue-saturated or blue super-saturated photosynthesis, then yes the resulting photosynthesis should be the same. >> ….But practically speaking, once a photon is absorbed and transferred to a center of photosynthesis, the initial wavelength of that photon is immaterial.<< Yes, agreed – a usable photon is a usable photon to the photosynthetic process. However, the conversion of xanthophylls (the non-photochemical quenching or NPQ) is directly related to wavelength – the DD/DT cycle is powered by presence or absence of blue wavelengths. So, the dynamic photoinhibition (non-damaging and natural) we see is due to intensity of violet/blue wavelengths. (Xanthophylls do not play a significant part in coral coloration, to my knowledge.) Those warmer wavelengths – red – used in photosynthesis are usually not an issue with corals from deeper depths (or in shaded portions of shallow tidepools). However, strong red light can cause bleaching since many corals have no defense against them (and why should they, since red wavelengths are attenuated rapidly in a water column?). >>Here I mean the production of any colorful coral pigment and mean to exclude zooxanthellae pigments. That would include fluorescent proteins as well as chromoproteins.<< OK – thanks! – That helps! >> If these pigments are meant as a sort of sunscreen for the zoox.<< IMO, that’s a big ‘if’, although Salih’s work strongly suggests Kawaguti’s findings were for the most part correct. I’m not saying Salih is wrong, just that I think other factors should be considered (zooxanthellae clade, effect of temperature on ETR, etc.) before sweeping statements are made. >>I see no reason that their production should be substantially different due to a difference in light spectrum (within reason--something analagous to what we see from hobbyist bulbs). If the proteins are not involved in a process like this (e.g., GFP) I see no reason they should be affected by light spectrum whatsoever (excluding UV, for obvious reasons).<< Evidence from the biomedical field *strongly* suggests (ie, proves) certain wavelengths are indeed responsible of production of certain coral pigments (usually violet/blue with some orange colors produced by exposure to green wavelengths). This is not a new concept, after all certain wavelengths are known to induce changes in human skin (UV-B and sunburn); blue light in timing of some corals bio-clocks; flowering of terrestrial plants in response to red light, etc. There is a book written on the various effects of blue light (The Blue Light Syndrome). Blue light reconfigures the coral pigment protein (cis-, tris- whatever) in an effect called the ‘hula-twist’. There are slight substitutions in the protein’s amino acid makeup. The pigment can become fluorescent or non-fluorescent or change colors upon exposure to the ‘proper’ wavelength(s). >>I see no reason that the corals should produce more of any given animal pigment in response to increased blue light as compared to bright full-spectrum light.<< The fact is that coral pigments are generated in response to wavelength *and* intensity – there are just too many biomedical papers to ignore (which confirm the thousands of anecdotal observations by hobbyists). But your question is really one of ‘why’ – and that is open to speculation and conjecture. However, years ago, when I was at Aquatic Wildlife, we worked diligently on unlocking the mysteries of coral coloration (color – like sex – sells!). The full-spectrum Iwasaki DL lamps were very good at generating color (if intensity was great enough). Problem was – these lamps are lousy at showcasing most of the fluorescent colors (although the red and blue non-fluorescent chromoproteins really stood out). So, there are cases where color is generated by full-spectrum lamps. The Iwasakis produce a good amount of blue light, although it is washed out by the yellow-green portion of the spectrum. Dana |
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#37
11/07/2007, 05:57 PM
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Hi Dana,
>> If these pigments are meant as a sort of sunscreen for the zoox.<< IMO, that’s a big ‘if’, although Salih’s work strongly suggests Kawaguti’s findings were for the most part correct. I’m not saying Salih is wrong, just that I think other factors should be considered (zooxanthellae clade, effect of temperature on ETR, etc.) before sweeping statements are made. Agreed, I do think this is a big if. For instance, I don't think there's any reason to think GFP has anything to do with the fact it interacts with visible light--that's likely just a side effect and has nothing to do with its true function. Some of the GFP-like fluorescent and non-fluorescent proteins...I don't know. I can appreciate what Salih et al., have done, but I'm not entirely convinced they have it figured out just yet. What about zoox. clade, temp., etc. do you think needs to be considered? Evidence from the biomedical field *strongly* suggests (ie, proves) certain wavelengths are indeed responsible of production of certain coral pigments (usually violet/blue with some orange colors produced by exposure to green wavelengths). I'd be most interested to take a look, if you could direct me. This is not a new concept, after all certain wavelengths are known to induce changes in human skin (UV-B and sunburn); blue light in timing of some corals bio-clocks; flowering of terrestrial plants in response to red light, etc. There is a book written on the various effects of blue light (The Blue Light Syndrome). Well ya, sure, but that is completely different. The ability to sense light and having different sensitivity in the photoreceptors to different wavelengths does not imply differential production of particular proteins. I don't start tanning if I sit and stare in a blue room instead of a green room  I'll reserve judgement until I see strong evidence one way or another, but to this point I've yet to see any evidence or been able to think of any a priori reason that a difference in light spectrum should cause corals to produce more or less of colorful pigments. Best, Chris
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FSM ~ Touched by His noodly appendage ~ |
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#38
11/07/2007, 06:08 PM
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Dana, I have a related question...
T5s(or all phosphor bulbs I suppose) and halides can be set up to have the same spectrum. I dont know if you have heard/seen the effects that some T5s have on the corals though. Its a bit like this... when Home Depot was changing all their halides out for T5s, at the 50/50 point, you could look into the halide section of the store, and things were bright, sure, but 'duller' in a way. When I looked at the T5 lit side, all the colors seemed to 'pop' more, esp the bright orange color on all the racking... almost like with a blacklight... but these are all 3000K and 6500K GE bulbs. I have observed similar things with T5s in the home reef as well. It seems that there is something in the light spectrum that allows corals to color up better than with halides, even when under lower light levels for some otherwise light-greedy acros. The pigments arent just picked up by the T5s in some way for how I see them, but they change all together. I can get orange whorling cap to color up into a neon red color, and Blue tortuosa to light up this way as well. And it wasnt just because of variation in spectrum. I picked bulbs on both systems that gave the same final spectral output (EVC 20,000K vs. 2x aquablue, 2x blue+, 2x true actinic 03). Others observe this as well, so its a little more than just a 'fluke' it seems. What is this from? Could it be some sort of wavelength (but no halide I have tried seems to be able to do this)? Does it have to do with the inner light producing gasses of the T5s? I can literally grow corals faster and with better coloration with T5s than with halides. I thought that with my new halide + T5 combo, I would get this still, if not more... but this just isnt so. Just wondering if there is some explaination for this.
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"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it" -Al Einstein |
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#39
11/07/2007, 07:48 PM
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Aloha Chris,
>>What about zoox. clade, temp., etc. do you think needs to be considered?<< There are other reasons that colorful corals could have a lower electron transport rate (as demonstrated by various researchers). Fabricius showed that colorful corals retain less heat than colorful ones. Does this play any role at all? No one to my knowledge has connected the dots on this one. The zooxanthella clade could play a difference - some adjust to light intensity by adjusting their numbers, some adjust the PSU size. Some are heat or bleaching resistant due to the chemical compostion of the thyllakoid membranes. Color might have nothing to do with their photosynthetic capacity. >>Well ya, sure, but that is completely different. The ability to sense light and having different sensitivity in the photoreceptors to different wavelengths does not imply differential production of particular proteins. I don't start tanning if I sit and stare in a blue room instead of a green room << Smarty pants ;-). The point is that spectrum is often an important part of photochemical responses. I don't have time to pick through the references, so I'll cut-and-paste a partial list - there are some real gems buried in the biomedical literature! >>I'll reserve judgement until I see strong evidence one way or another, but to this point I've yet to see any evidence or been able to think of any a priori reason that a difference in light spectrum should cause corals to produce more or less of colorful pigments. I'd be most interested to take a look, if you could direct me.<< Here goes: Ando, R., H. Hama, M. Yamamoto-Hino, H. Mizuno, and A. Miyawaki, 2002. An optical marker based on the UV-induced green-to-red photoconversion of a fluorescent protein. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA, 99(20):12651-12656. Ando, R., H. Mizuno and A. Miyawaki, 2004. Regulated fast nucleocytoplasmic shuttling observed by reversible protein highlighting. Science, 306:1370-1373. Andresen, M., M. Wahl, A. Stiel, F. Gräter, L. Schäfer, S. Trowitzsch, G. Weber, C. Eggeling, H. Grubmüller, S. Hell and S. Jakobs, 205. Structure and mechanism of the reversible photoswitch of a fluorescent protein. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA, 102, 37:13070-13074. Apprill, A., 2003. Spectral characteristics and genetic expression of green fluorescent proteins in Hawaiian corals. In: Molecular Biology of Corals: Results of 2002 Edwin W. Pauley Summer Program in Marine Biology, E. Cox and T. Lewis, eds. University of Hawaii HIMB Technical Report No. 43:6-13. Baird, G., D. Zacharias and R. Tsien, 2000. Biochemistry, mutagenesis, and oligomerization of DsRed, a red fluorescent protein from coral. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA, 97(22):11984-11989. Bandaranayake, W., 1998. Mycosporines: Are they nature’s sunscreens? National Product Review, 1998. 159-172. Bingman, C., 1995. Green-fluorescent protein: a model for coral host fluorescent proteins? Aquarium Frontiers, 2(3): 6-9. Bingman, C., 1999. 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Savitskii and K. Lukyanov, 2002. Key amino acid residues responsible for the color of green and yellow fluorescent proteins from the coral polyp Zoanthus sp. Russian Journal of Bioorganic Chemistry, 28(4): 274-277. Zawada, D. and J. Jaffe, 2003. Changes in the fluorescence of the Caribbean coral Montastraea faveolata during heat-induced bleaching. Limnol. Oceanogr., 481(1, part 2):412-425. |
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#40
11/08/2007, 02:23 AM
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Aloha Hahnmeister,
I need to digest your comments before making mine. A two-day business trip to Honolulu really mucks up the important things in life ;-). Will get back to you Saturday, if not sooner. Dana |
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#41
11/08/2007, 03:46 AM
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Sure sure... no problem.
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"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it" -Al Einstein |
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#42
11/08/2007, 07:56 PM
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Dana,
Have you done any research with colored films or theatrical gels and sunlight? I have 2- 4x4' sheets of 3/8" Starphire that I'd like to build a large skylight with, and possibly use gels to "tune" the light for better color. Do you see any drawbacks? Thanks for sharing all of your research, and taking time to communicate with those of us with a lot to learn  !Chris
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"Not cheap, but silent and absofrickenlutely no bubbles" "Be sure and wear a speedo lest tangs nest in your britches" |
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#43
11/08/2007, 08:15 PM
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There are other reasons that colorful corals could have a lower electron transport rate (as demonstrated by various researchers).
Fabricius showed that colorful corals retain less heat than colorful ones. Does this play any role at all? No one to my knowledge has connected the dots on this one. The zooxanthella clade could play a difference - some adjust to light intensity by adjusting their numbers, some adjust the PSU size. Some are heat or bleaching resistant due to the chemical compostion of the thyllakoid membranes. Color might have nothing to do with their photosynthetic capacity. Sure, I would never argue that we are at all certain about what these proteins do or how exactly they do it. A friend was meaning to work on the effects of colony pigmentation on sensitivity of the zoox. to temperature stress, but I'm not sure how much she's been able to get done with that. Darker or more colorful colonies do tend to be warmer than lighter or unpigmented colonies, and that microtemperature could exert selective pressure against those colored corals during high temperature stress, as suggested by work from Fabricius et al. The bulk of my friend's work deals with looking at differences in susceptibility to temp stress and connecting that to differences in thylakoid membrane composition (and hence fluidity). Generally zoox. make adjustments for differences in light intensity by changing PSU size and pigment density, but not by changing their density within the coral. That would increase shading on each zooxanthella--how could that be used as a mechanism to reduce light limitation? Besides, many studies have shown that zoox. density is similar over a range of depths in a given coral. But having said all of this, I still don't see any reason that we should think light spectrum incident on the corals should affect the production of pigments that we agree may or may not have anything to do with the fact that they interact with light. Smarty pants ;-). The point is that spectrum is often an important part of photochemical responses. I don't have time to pick through the references, so I'll cut-and-paste a partial list - there are some real gems buried in the biomedical literature! Ha, Yes, spectrum can play a part in biochemical responses, but only when spectrum is an important factor in the functioning of these processes.For example, there's no reason that insulin production in our body should be affected by the color our eyes see. There would be no benefit to doing so. On the other hand, there IS benefit to detecting increases in UVR and UVR damage. Thus, when exposed to increased UVR, we tan. I'll take a look through that lit. list when I get a chance. Chris
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FSM ~ Touched by His noodly appendage ~ |
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#44
11/09/2007, 02:23 AM
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Quote:
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"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it" -Al Einstein |
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#45
11/10/2007, 06:09 PM
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Aloha H2OENG-
I have done some work with gels and filters, mostly with calculating which filter to use to give a desired result. There is a formula to determine affects of filters on the ultimate Kelvin Rating and is called the Mired Shift Value. It is: 1,000,000 - 1,000,000 = Mired Shift Value Desired Kelvin Rating Lamp Kelvin Rating Example: Determine the Mired Shift Value to alter Kelvin Rating from 3,200°K to 20,000°K: 1,000,000 - 1,000,000 = 50 – 313 = - 263 20,000 3,200 In this case, a Roscolux™ Double Blue Filter #3220 will give the desired result. Mired Shift Values are an industry standard; determine the Mired Shift Value and contact a theatrical supply house for advice for the correct filter in other applications. Probably better to use colored acrylic than gels. Dana |
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#46
11/11/2007, 08:19 PM
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Aloha Hahnmeister,
Its a bit like this... when Home Depot was changing all their halides out for T5s, at the 50/50 point, you could look into the halide section of the store, and things were bright, sure, but 'duller' in a way. When I looked at the T5 lit side, all the colors seemed to 'pop' more, esp the bright orange color on all the racking... almost like with a blacklight... but these are all 3000K and 6500K GE bulbs. There are several possibilities. 1. The T5 lamps produce more warm wavelengths (they are 3000 and 6500K lamps, correct?), and the warmer colors are simply better showcased under this spectrum. 2. The paint Home Depot uses has a fluorescent additive, as do some of the inks on product packaging to make them immediately visually appealing. Perhaps the spectrum of the T5’s excited these fluorescent pigments, did not ‘wash them out’ or a combination of both. 3. The metal halide lamps were horrible (spectrally-speaking) and tended to make everything appear dull. I have observed similar things with T5s in the home reef as well. It seems that there is something in the light spectrum that allows corals to color up better than with halides, even when under lower light levels for some otherwise light-greedy acros. Obviously we have changed gears here, and are talking biochemical responses to a stimulus. I suspect some of the coloration you’re seeing is due to coral pigments NOT bleaching. It is quite common for some corals to lose pigmentation if there is too much light, or if the photoperiod is too long. The pigments arent just picked up by the T5s in some way for how I see them, but they change all together. I can get orange whorling cap to color up into a neon red color, and Blue tortuosa to light up this way as well. The orange caps will turn pastel orange if bleached (in this case, probably due to loss of photopigments). By the same token, the increase of zoox (or their photopigments) as a result of lower light intensity can cause the coral to take on a different color – usually a deep orange or reddish-orange). And it wasnt just because of variation in spectrum. Agreed – I think the coloration responses are due to intensity (but I have a lot of spec work to do before making a flat statement). I can literally grow corals faster and with better coloration with T5s than with halides. I thought that with my new halide + T5 combo, I would get this still, if not more... but this just isnt so. Just wondering if there is some explaination for this. The same result can be had with LEDs. I think we’re observing results of a hospitable environment for pigments (no photo-bleaching, which can cause ‘pasteling’ of colors). At the same time, lower light intensity is causing a shift in zoox photopigments or cell density, which of course changes the reflectance pattern. You’ve got a PAR meter, don’t you? Some intensity numbers could help us nail this down. Dana |
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#48
11/12/2007, 02:41 AM
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Okay, I have a pink prostrata with blue tips. This is the best example. I would have to keep it under at least 300, if not 400+ microMol/m2/s of light with halides for it to color up. If I put it in 250 or less, it would 'brown out'.
Under T5s, it was under 350 at most... at the very tips, and sometimes it was on the sand... and it turned neon. With the orange cap, funny you should mention... Since the new tank with the light mover, I put the deep neon blood red cap in a corner so it wouldnt bleach out or anything. Flow was pretty constant as it was in the 'backwash' from a Tunze stream. Anyways, it started to bleach out from the center/bottom out. The light level in the corner it was in was 100-180 (depending on light mover). I had to move it up the side of a rock, so it would get 400+ when the halide came over it. Now its coloring in darker and quickly regrowing... reverse of what I thought. I too was thinking the corals were coloring in better due to lower light, but if I tried lower light with the halides, the corals just faded, and sometimes bleach.
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"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it" -Al Einstein |
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#49
11/12/2007, 02:09 PM
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Hahnmeister,
>>Okay, I have a pink prostrata with blue tips. This is the best example. I would have to keep it under at least 300, if not 400+ microMol/m2/s of light with halides for it to color up. If I put it in 250 or less, it would 'brown out'.<< You're saying it lost pink color? Blue color? Both? >>Under T5s, it was under 350 at most... at the very tips, and sometimes it was on the sand... and it turned neon.<< Neon - meaning green fluorescence? Which T5s are you using? I did a lot of T5 work for Sunlight Supply years ago. That data is on the Conscientious Aquarist site. It would be interesting look at your spectral quality. >>With the orange cap, funny you should mention... Since the new tank with the light mover, I put the deep neon blood red cap in a corner so it wouldnt bleach out or anything. Flow was pretty constant as it was in the 'backwash' from a Tunze stream. Anyways, it started to bleach out from the center/bottom out. The light level in the corner it was in was 100-180 (depending on light mover). I had to move it up the side of a rock, so it would get 400+ when the halide came over it. Now its coloring in darker and quickly regrowing... reverse of what I thought.<< Did we calculate the light dosage on this 'mover', maybe a year ago? I'd like to re-visit the intensity numbers again. Thanks- Dana |
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#50
11/12/2007, 02:15 PM
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The prostrata is pink with blue tips, and yes, when it loses color, the whole corals just turns brown.
Where the orange cap is now, its PAR is at a minimum 200, and maxes out at over 400... so its average is something in between... 300? This is waaay more than normal it seems. It makes me wonder if the time under the T5s chaged the coral in some way besides color. This one seems adapted to much higher lighting levels than the other colony I have sitting on the sand. If I give that one too much light, it starts to fade/bleach. I have to keep it under 200 or less.
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"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it" -Al Einstein |
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