Which R/O-DI from ebay?

[BeanAnimal]

These threads make me chuckle...

Colorado... The units are not the same.

The AWI TIII comes with a 75 GPD DOW FILMTEC MEMBRANE. THey recomend NOT using the 100 GPD membrane in almost all cases (and will talk you out of it unless you INSIST).

The AquaSafe COMES WITH A 100 GPD APPLIED MEMBRANES membrane. NOT THE SAME... Let me say that again. NOT THE SAME!!!!! They even go as fart as saying it is better.

Remember the true dow FILMTEC is 98% at 50 PSI
The applied unit is ~90% at 50 PSI.

The AWI comes with a full size Vertical DI housing. The aquasafe a horizontal.

You don't need to look any further than this. In other words the rest of your post is irrelevant.

You keep bringing up "YOUR OPINION". That is the sticking point. This has nothing to do with opinion. The AWI unit costs LESS than the aquasafe unless you have an input tds of 50 or so (and will this rarely change resin). It's that simple.

The aquasafe costs more becuse of the increased DI usage and wastewater. No opinion here, just very simple math.

[98riv]

I also have an AquaSafe filter. It works great for me. It may not be better than a filter from air water and ice, but it is better than using tap water.

[BeanAnimal]

I'm budget conscious myself so I didn't want to spend a fortune on a RO unit.

The point is that you will spend MORE with Aquasafe Unit

You can always mount the DI vertically if you wanted to. but the Resin is so well packed in the chamber that it hasn't been a problem for me. Even a Vertical filter can get channeling if the media isn't packed properly.

You can not simply turn the horzintal chamber to a vertical position. They are not packed the same. You may want to note that countless "horizontal" DI folks think that 2 oe 3 TDS output water is just fine! They go as far as defending their units as being great values.

Channeling and bypassing? Yes either style can, but the horizontal units are VERY PRONE TO IT. To argue differently is silly. Water seeks it's own level. Think about the physics of the situation and it will be clear.

Are there better out there? yeah but it wasn't worth the extra price for me. I've had mine for over 2 years and even with replacing my cartridges (and still having extra spare cartridges) I think I've still paid less than I would if I bought Kent or Spectrapure.

You would still be further ahead with a more efficient unit. The unit should last the life of your tank. You "think" after 2 year you still paid less... That means that it is rather close. What about after 4 years? Did you still pay less?

I've had great support form Aquasafe when I did have questions and do not have any complaints or issues with the make or quality of the parts and I'd recommend them to my Friends or Family.

Aquasafe is one of the better "cheap" units.... but it is still a "cheap" unit with the two common problems (membrane type and resin configuration)

I understand Bean's argument and if money was no object my everyday car would be M5 and I'd have my choice betwen an Aston Martin Vanquish and Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren for my weekend cars unfortunately money is an object so I have to weigh my options and pick what I really want to put my money towards.

If thats your understanding of my arguement... then you have no idea what I am saying. This is not about "features", it is about price. You can not come up with an added feature that the "ebay" units have to make them ore attractive. It is the "price" that makes them attractive. In other words you are not trading up for anything other than a better initial price. You are losing performance (efficiency) and in some cases features. A loser any way you look at it. That is the point.

So if you want an inexpensive RO unit I'd vote the Aqua-Safe. If you want the best then maybe the Typhon III or Optima like AZDesertrat said but there is always something better.

They keyword that keeps coming up in this and every thread is "inexpensive". We keep trying to show that the TRUE COST is more than the purchase price.

Opions are like ### ##### everyone has one. but thats just my opinion Ok i'm delirious from lack of sleep.

Sadly, this is not opinion, though everybody keeps trying to frame it as such. The math is simple and so is the concept. Almost every person that defends the "value" of these cheap units misses this point. They either don't understand, or feel that 4 TDS water is the normal output of an RO/DI system.


The "value added" stuff is opinion (valves, type of plastic, look, etc).

PS I don't mean to insight any sort of anger from anyone just thought I'd put my 2 cents in.

No anger detected or being vented... just trying to help people understand where the "money goes" in these rather simple devices.

[bbfatty49]

i just recieved this one in the mail http://cgi.ebay.com/AQUA-AQUARIUM-1...4QQcmdZViewItem
it is an excellent RO/DI unit...i love it

[BeanAnimal]

fatty, the link does not work.

In any case the fact that you (or anybody) loves their RO/DI unit has nothing to do with the point that is important here (or one of these hundreds of RO/DI threads).

My brother loves his Audi TT, but that does not mean it is a quality car. It is in the shop once a month to fix major problems. Why is this relevant?

If somebody were to ask him if he loved the car he would say "yes". If somebody asked him if the car was a good value, he would say "yes". Why? Very simple, he is trading reliability for features (the speed, look, driving feel, etc). These things are of VALUE to him. When compared to other cars, these "values" can be decided upon and weighed against the total cost of ownership.

So that begs the question. What VALUE do the "cheaper" units have.

They do not have added features (many have less features)
They do not offer elevated performance, they offer degraded performance. They do not offer monetary savings, instead they cost more to run and hence more to OWN.

This is a very simple concept of value, and no "added" value is obtained from the cheaper unit. The only arguement that can be cited is the PURCHASE PRICE. If RO/DI units did not have consumable parts that depend on their components, then PURCHASE PRICE and features could be directly compared.

Put another way. If the "cheaper" unit offered extra features (above the "more expensive" unit) then you would have a decision or options to weight when making a choice.

Going a step further and assuming that both the "cheap" and "expensive" units are identicle in all features with the exception of only the membranes and resin configuration, the cheaper unit still loses hands down.

Those of you who read consumer reports look at these types of comparisons every day.

Enjoy

[J4Life]

Yes these sort of threads make me laugh as well. First off thanks BeanAnimal for your support of the troops. I served in the Army for 6 years so I appreciate that.

Now as to your continued argument whether or not a $100 RO unit purchased from Ebay is as good as one that cost $200's or more from say spectrapure.com is not accurate.

After looking into your claims that the Dow Filmtec membrane is significantly better verses the AMI membrane I found that it really depends on whether or not you want a 100 GPD RO unit or a 75 GPD unit. I personally prefer getting as much bang for the buck as possible so I am all about the 100 GPD unit.

Please see links for more details:

AMI Membrane

http://www.wateranywhere.com/Water_F...d911e2586f7c64

Dow Membrane

http://www.wateranywhere.com/Water_F...d911e2586f7c64

The AMI membrane is actually better at that rated usage than the Dow Filmtec membrane. Granted I keep hearing that the water pressure in a home is between 40-50 PSI but I can say from personal experience that if most people's water pressure was that low you wouldn't be able to run very many things before the drop became really apparent. To be specific most homes water pressure is significantly higher than that. 40-50 PSI at least here in NC is the minimum recommend pressure that a plumber must meet in order to past inspection which in my opinion is just plane nonsense. Try running more than one sprinkler on a house that has that low of pressure and you will be lucky to get 20 feet of water coming out of each....

In my opinion personal experience is everything. Oh and as to your analogy about servers. I would be happy to replace any Dell Power Edge or HP server with one that I built.

Like I said cost is everything and you can get good deals if you pay attention. The only problem that I really see here with this thread and the continued arguments as to whether one should spend more money on this or that is most people who have already spent hundreds of dollars more than someone else don't really like being told they got taken! I know because I am one of those individuals.

Finally I plan on testing my $100 RO unit to see just how well it is doing. I have purchased a very nice TDS meter and I didn't get taken in the process. I will let you know how it turns out. Also the nice thing about my $100 RO unit is if the Dow Fimltec membrane was better than my AMI membrane I could just as easily add it and in the end I still wouldn't have spent hundreds of dollars on a so called better quality RO unit.

Cheers!
Bill

[AZDesertRat]

Basically the Applied 100 GPD membrane is a rebadged 75 GPD Dow membrane with and inflated pressure rating. Dow rates it at 50 psi and Applied rates it at 65 psi.
I can assure you the average water pressure across the US is not 65 psi. I have been a state certified water treatment professional for 32 years now so I do speak from experience. 50 psi is more the norm so with the Applied you would still be getting 75 GPD best case scenario.
That is just another sales technique the lesser quality vendors use to sell RO units along with inflated efficiencies, outright lies about DI efficiencies and resin life etc.
The AWI may not be any worse than the Dow but its certainly not any better. Its the other components that all add up to a lower quality less efficient unit.

[J4Life]

AZDesertRat,

I do appreciate your input. Can you prove 100% without a doubt that the AMI is rebranded? AMI has a 75 GPD membrane as well and can you tell me with 100% certainty that pressure in everyone's home is 40-50 PSI? Unless you test each one you cannot make such claims.

Like I stated earlier in NC the recommended minimum is 40-50 PSI. The applied pressure at the connection from my county water line is 80 PSI. I do understand that depending on how far off you live from the connection there is some friction loss due to pipe size. I also understand that most homes have an adjustable pressure bell which would allow the home owner to increase or decrease the amount of water pressure coming into the home.

That being said I feel confident that my Ebay RO unit is made as good as your $200 plus unit. I have seen both and the quality is no different. Do you really think that the parts they use are any better? If so, then I feel sorry for you. I feel pretty confident that the same parts used in both are coming from the same manufactures. Which is exactly why I stick by what I said early on.

Also for the record I never made any claims that the average water pressure across the US was 65 PSI. If we base this discussion on pure specifications of both membranes then the AMI is the better membrane at the 100 GPD rate. Both DOW and AMI require for optimal working conditions that the average water temperature be 77 degrees and for the DOW the minimum pressure at 50 PSI, AMI is 65 PSI.

Also to make this clear for everyone. The AMI 75 GPD membrane is not rebranded/badged as a 100 GPD membrane. I called AMI directly and spoke with them concerning the specifics regarding their membrane and the DOW since they offer both.

According to AMI the membranes are pretty much identical with the exception of the 100 GPD membrane. The AMI actually has more membrane surface area then the DOW.

AZDesertRat I do understand that your profession is Water/Waste Water consultant and I mean no disrespect at all. I just don't think that making an argument that involves a large number of scenarios justifies making claims that a more expensive unit is better than one purchased cheaper.

That's like saying if you and I by the same HD TV, but I get a $200 rebate on mine than yours is must be better because you paid more, yet they are the exact same TV.

Regardless what I say, you say, or anyone else a lot of this boils down to personal opinion and when personal opinion is involved every thinks he/she is right.

Thanks,
Bill

[AZDesertRat]

The water pressure the EPA and state health departments require is 40 psi during normal times and 20 psi during peak usage periods or emergencies. That being said the nationwide average is around 50 psi. If your is higher thats great but that is not the norm.
The AMI is not a better membrane period. It has the very same flow as a 75 GPD Dow Filmtec at the same pressure, temperature and TDS. As Isaid before it is identical to the Dow 75. The Dow 100 GPD is not a true RO membrane at all but is in fact a nano filter designed for pool and spa use and is rated as such by the NSF and ANSI. It is a different animal completely.
Do you know if the AMI carries a ANSI/NSF certification for drinking water by itself or just as materials of construction? There are several different ratings like NSF 58 or NSF 61 etc. Some are for Pool and Spa use, others are for individual materials or components and others are for complete systems or assemblies.

I will stick by the Dow until someone can show me different. I think the fact that the major vendors that warranty and support their products for years and years use Dow speaks for itself. Cheaper is not better or they would be using cheaper don't you think?

[J4Life]

Cheaper is not better or they would be using cheaper don't you think?

I never said cheaper was better. What I said was that just because the cost of the ebay RO unit is cheaper doesn't make it a lesser product.

Yes the AMI has an NSF rating. They list the NSF logo right there on the page. The NSF rating is 58. I had to call them to get that information. Honestly though this just simply boils down to an opinion nothing more. If you really feel like your getting a better product because you paid more then nothing I say or show you will change your mind. It doesn't bother me whether you feel the same way I do or not.

What I don't like to see is someone getting steered in a direction just because a few people think that because they spent more on something makes it better. It happens way too much on this site. The bottom line here is that most people in this hobby are do-it-yourselfers and with that in mind its pretty darn easy to maintain an RO unit with out a long promised warranty. Most parts purchased for RO units come with a warranty on them so I am not sure I see the need.

However for those who are not comfortable maintaining their own equipment in that sense I guess buying a more expensive unit to get an extra year of service might be beneficial.

Thanks,
Bill

[africangrey]

I have both the aquasafe and air water ice unit currently, I purchased the aquasafe unit 2 years, I was pretty happy until I found out that I had to change DI tube every month with an averge usage of 3 gal of DI/day.
Back in December I took on the advises from AZDesertRat and got the Typhoon III and man let me tell you the differece is from night to day. because the TDS RO out is 2 vs. 27, Typhoon III vs. Aquasafe, with in put water at >270 TDS. So with 99% rejection rate I choose Typhoon III any time of the day, and aquasafe is good to serve as drinking water because I got tired of swapping out the DI tube every month, and my kidney won't appreciate me more if I drink a 27 tds vs. 0 tds water.
BTW, it has been 4 months already and I haven't changed the resins yet on the AWI. and post DI is still 0 tds.

[J4Life]

africangrey,

Thanks for the info. That's nice to know. I don't use DI so I am strictly speaking from a 5 Stage RO unit perspective. Plus my RO unit is a devoneb unit and not an Aquasafe unit so I can't speak for that one as well.

Regardless as long as your happy and I am happy does it really matter? My tank is doing great and I have had 0 issues with my RO unit and its over a year old.

Cheers!
Bill

[BeanAnimal]

J4Life, firstly thank you for your service, my sentiments are they very least I can offer to anybody who has given their time to keep me free (and able to carry on a debate just like this).

The problem here is that opinion keeps getting confused with fact. The point being made is not "more expensive is better", though people keep framing this debate that way.

The lesser membranes cost less to buy and more to operate. The increased operation cost contributes to the overall cost of the unit. Again, this is not opinion, it is very straight forward fact derived from the operating parameters of the units in question.

With regards to the "applied membranes". Their catalog shows that the rated specifications are at 65 PSI and 77F. They also clearly note that the NSF certification is a "materials only". If the membranes were able to pass the output test for NSF, they would clearly certify the membranes under this program. The "opinion" part of this then becomes what TDS is acceptable at what pressure for a given person.

That said, I do feel that the units in question that use the applied membrane are much better than those that use hte GE or mis- applied technology. I am fully open to the applied 100GPD membrane being a dow 75GDP unit that is overdriven to get the rated output. If that is the case, then the units in question are much further ahead, with their only MAJOR operational flow being the poorly designed horizontal resin.

We are basing all of these recomendations on an output of 0TDS and the least costly way of maintaining that 0TDS output over the life of the unit (hopefully the life of your tank).

The cost difference becomes closer when the same quality parts and optimum configuration is used (filmtec and vert DI). The price gap though smaller, does become more opinion based. The value of customer support, overall build quality or workmaship, warranty, replcament parts costs, and a half dozen other things can be weighed and argued. So opinion does have a place, so long as the other aspects are agreed upon as equal or known handicaps to weigh into the decision.

I have not built a computer (other than the mini-itx for my aquarium controller and a DIY rackmount NAS server for my LAN) in several years, and will likely never go through the expense or hassle again. I just threw shelves full of mobos, cpus and memory away. No need for me to keep parts, I just order DELLS now.

[J4Life]

BeanAnimal you're welcome. We are lucky that there are those that continue to serve and keep us safe and try to bring freedom to others who are nowhere near as blessed as the US is.

I do understand your concern about the membranes. My point is based on specifics and with all due respect please call AMI yourself and ask them if you want to know just exactly how there membrane is made. I did and the AMI 100 GPD membrane is completely certified and could be used in any system. As far as quality of parts that is all relative to which you feel is best. The parts I received with my devoneb RO unit are in equal to that of the more expensive RO units being sold else where.

Personally for myself I am not that concerned with customer service with a device such as this since I feel quite confident in being able to support my own problems if they should arise.

Thanks again,
Bill

[BeanAnimal]

I just repeated the exact information I found on the PDF catalog and spec sheet on their website. I know they use the dow fabric... that and the specifications are as deep as I have delved (or really care to).

My only point in every one of these threads has been to calculte cost by looking at the overall operating cost in addition to the purchase price, no matter what the source.

[J4Life]

Completely understandable. Those factors have to be considered, but as long as the products being used for filtering out the unwanted chemicals are comparable to one another then cost really isn't an issue unless one is more expensive than the other which is my point. I do not like paying a lot of money if I do not have to. I do agree that there are some things you need to, but just do not feel this is one of those areas. Now lighting systems that is a different story altogether. I like to think of myself as a bargain basement shopper when it comes to this hobby.

I really do not want to spend enough money to fund a 3rd world country if you know what I mean.

Have you looked at this site and compared their filters cost to others?

http://www.wateranywhere.com/Water_F...d911e2586f7c64

The filters are a whole lot cheaper on that site than anywhere else and their products are good products.

Thanks,
Bill

[sjm817]

FWIW, I upgraded my FilterDirect with all new filters (was due) and replaced the 100 GPD membrane with a 75 GPD Dow. Both membranes produced TDS = 4. No difference in my case. I also upgraded to a proper vertical DI canister which brought the TDS to 0.

[steve414]

i have the top one and my water is 200 tds tap water and after the ro/di its 0 thats pretty good for 60 bucks

[patedship]

This has been a great debate i am happy to have recieved all this input. I decided to go with the PurelyH20 Optima Automated unit. I was looking for an auto top off. So i figured i could buy an auto top off for $70 and a RO/DI for another $150. But i ended up getting both for $170 shipping included. I will get my RO/DI in the mail in the next few days, i am very excited. I am starting up a new tank in the next few weeks. I have gotten most of my stuff used, which not only has saved me a ton of money but all of the equipment i have bought work like new. I am giving a new meaning to the poor mans reef, just yesterday i purchased 2 Seio 820's for $60. I have also bought a CSS 125 for $100, Coralife 36" pro for $230, and a drilled AGA 50B and an AGA stand both for $100 NO LEAKS , a 20L sump for $40, and 90lbs of live sand from a local reefer for $15. I also have worked out a deal with a live rock dealer to get 40lbs for $200 shipped to my door. I will make sure to keep you all posted and make a thread with my constant progress throughout my second reef venture.

[sjm817]

Originally posted by patedship
I decided to go with the PurelyH20 Optima Automated unit.

Good choice