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  #1  
Old 12/15/2007, 10:37 AM
capn_hylinur capn_hylinur is offline
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My lord needs help

My lord acan is in trouble--it has started to die off on the left side.
Up till this morning I could see nothing causing the die off --then I noticed a tiny white worm on it. Any Suggestions--should I take it out and do a r/0 water drip







its really not too close to anything else:

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  #2  
Old 12/15/2007, 11:00 AM
LobsterOfJustice LobsterOfJustice is offline
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Elecance might be stinging it... check at night and see it it has sweepers or mesenteries out.
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  #3  
Old 12/15/2007, 11:09 AM
capn_hylinur capn_hylinur is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by LobsterOfJustice
Elecance might be stinging it... check at night and see it it has sweepers or mesenteries out.
thanks but what is that might worm in the first picture--the other on the rock below it is just argonite---but that is a worm with legs etcs.
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  #4  
Old 12/15/2007, 11:52 AM
LobsterOfJustice LobsterOfJustice is offline
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I would guess that the worm is just cleaning up dead tissue or happens to be there. No way that worm little ate all that tissue . I've just never heard of coral predatory worms being a problem in a tank before. Either way, I think the key is to look at it at night - maybe every night 100 more worms are coming out and feasting on it. However, if that was the case I would expact the damage to be more spread out, not progressing from left to right.
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  #5  
Old 12/15/2007, 12:24 PM
Lotus99 Lotus99 is offline
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Definitely don't FW dip an LPS. If you want to do a dip, Lugols in saltwater.

Did it maybe get a lot of sand on it?
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  #6  
Old 12/15/2007, 03:59 PM
atzak atzak is offline
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that wormy thing looks a nudibranch, I'd get rid of it asap. I haven't heard of acan eating nudi's but I figure its only a matter of time
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  #7  
Old 12/15/2007, 06:39 PM
brandon7491 brandon7491 is offline
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dip in fresh water. frag off dead pieces,dip in lugos,qt it
  #8  
Old 12/15/2007, 07:01 PM
capn_hylinur capn_hylinur is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by atzak
that wormy thing looks a nudibranch, I'd get rid of it asap. I haven't heard of acan eating nudi's but I figure its only a matter of time
the elegant wrasse took care of it today

it was qt'd to begin with--and then was fine for about a month.

I move a torch coral today that could possibly have reached it a night

thanks everyone for all the suggestions---I am just glad that it isn't a nudibranch.
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  #9  
Old 12/15/2007, 07:05 PM
capn_hylinur capn_hylinur is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by brandon7491
dip in fresh water. frag off dead pieces,dip in lugos,qt it
brandon--I thought of fragging of the dead polyps but when I purchased that coral it was part of a piece double that size---the LPS took it out of the tank, put it on the floor and took a chisel to it------it fragged into four pieces--that being the larger. There was alot of die off due to that process over the next few weeks--so I don't want to repeat--just yet anyways
At least I know there were no hitchhikers in the middlle of the rock--I have some corals fragged to find it teaming with bristle worms etc.
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  #10  
Old 12/15/2007, 09:18 PM
brandon7491 brandon7491 is offline
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the rtn will not stop unless u frag the dead pieces off
  #11  
Old 12/16/2007, 10:13 AM
capn_hylinur capn_hylinur is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by brandon7491
the rtn will not stop unless u frag the dead pieces off
good point--I'll frag it. Do I have to get all of the dead pieces off?

why is this the case?
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  #12  
Old 12/16/2007, 03:56 PM
brandon7491 brandon7491 is offline
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its like this. if u have skin cancer on your arm and cut most of the cancerous tissue off but not all of it, the cancer will still grow and spread up the rest of the arm. well that is the case with rtn, if you cut most of it of but not all the dead tissue off it will still rtn vs if u cut all the dead pieces off.
  #13  
Old 12/16/2007, 03:59 PM
capn_hylinur capn_hylinur is offline
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thanks good way of explaining it
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  #14  
Old 12/17/2007, 06:17 PM
twon8 twon8 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by brandon7491
its like this. if u have skin cancer on your arm and cut most of the cancerous tissue off but not all of it, the cancer will still grow and spread up the rest of the arm. well that is the case with rtn, if you cut most of it of but not all the dead tissue off it will still rtn vs if u cut all the dead pieces off.
i disagree with this completely, Ive had dozen+ acros rtn on me and i was able to save some of them by letting them be. and give them good flow and water. Ive saved numerous lps the same way after partial die offs. the cancer bit doesn't apply to corals.

i think it got stung by the elegance or torch. let it be for a few days and if it progresses then cut it up. I've never heard of rtn on an acan...

and please dont' fw dip lps. even if they survive they won't be happy. zoas can handle it
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Last edited by twon8; 12/17/2007 at 06:24 PM.
  #15  
Old 12/17/2007, 06:28 PM
brandon7491 brandon7491 is offline
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yes i have had some acros recover from rtn with good water movement and letting them be but they were not sever rtns. yes twon8 but look at the rtn on that coral and ofcourse acans can rtn. how can u say the cancer bit does not apply to corals. if u have one little part of rtn and u dont frag it it can kill the whole coral. go look around on reef central at all the corals that had rtn and died witthing DAYS. and FW Dips do help from my own personal experience
  #16  
Old 12/17/2007, 10:10 PM
capn_hylinur capn_hylinur is offline
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I am not trying to play devil's advocate here but is there not a difference between rtn and polyps that have died off due to poisoing(stinging etc) by other corals.
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  #17  
Old 12/17/2007, 10:12 PM
capn_hylinur capn_hylinur is offline
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are acans particularily sensetive--more then other corals to --stinging by torch, elegant, hammer and frogspawn corals?
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  #18  
Old 12/18/2007, 12:34 AM
brandon7491 brandon7491 is offline
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idk about that i would think any coral is going to be sensistive if it gets stung. trust me man frag the dead stuff off, put your coral in a high flow place and he will be fine. what are your params?
  #19  
Old 12/18/2007, 12:15 PM
capn_hylinur capn_hylinur is offline
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its got a 1250 #4 gph korilia pointed at it from from the rt corner of the tank---and a 1800 gph return flow rate from a loc line pointed at it from the other direction.
all these measurements are stable except pH
salinty .026
pH 8.09 to 7.9 nocturnally
calcium 430
magnesium 1280
alk 9.9 dKh
temp 80.0
overall flow rate in the tank ~3500 gph
about 24 inches from the lighting system listed in the avitar

Would you frag the coral under water or not? It was originally fragged by the provider on the concrete floor but I have a steel tray I can use that will hold enough water to keep it submerged when I take a hammer and chisel to it
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  #20  
Old 12/18/2007, 12:26 PM
MiddletonMark MiddletonMark is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by twon8
i disagree with this completely, Ive had dozen+ acros rtn on me and i was able to save some of them by letting them be. and give them good flow and water. Ive saved numerous lps the same way after partial die offs. the cancer bit doesn't apply to corals.


and please dont' fw dip lps. even if they survive they won't be happy. zoas can handle it
I totally agree with your advice.

I don't see a reason for a FW dip [IMO this is stinging, lack of nutrition, or chemistry problems] ... beyond which, stony corals do NOT take well to FW dipping.


Nor do I agree with the `cancer' hypothesis. RTN = coral die-back. It is not a specific disease, and IME normally has to do with chemistry or other happenings in the tank .... it's not a virus/etc that spreads - it's a weak coral that has been overly stressed IME.

I would focus more on coral health [is it eating? how stable is chemistry? have you tested everything including verifying SG + temp with other devices than your standard?] ... and I'd also focus on stinging, giving excess space as many LPS can have up to 6" stinging cells [that only come out for short bits of time often at night, but a couple stings is often enough to kill weak polyps].

JMO, feel free to disagree. But I would not FW dip a stony coral. Nor is my experience with stonies suggest that fragging will `save' a coral ... get the coral back to health, and it'll survive. Leave it in the same conditions, with the same stressors [chemical or stinging tentacle `war'] and it will continue to degrade.

Do you run carbon? Do w/c's often?
I'd consider doing both for the meantime, at least to help rule out chemistry/other issues.
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  #21  
Old 12/18/2007, 01:06 PM
capn_hylinur capn_hylinur is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by MiddletonMark
I totally agree with your advice.

I don't see a reason for a FW dip [IMO this is stinging, lack of nutrition, or chemistry problems] ... beyond which, stony corals do NOT take well to FW dipping.


Nor do I agree with the `cancer' hypothesis. RTN = coral die-back. It is not a specific disease, and IME normally has to do with chemistry or other happenings in the tank .... it's not a virus/etc that spreads - it's a weak coral that has been overly stressed IME.

I would focus more on coral health [is it eating? how stable is chemistry? have you tested everything including verifying SG + temp with other devices than your standard?] ... and I'd also focus on stinging, giving excess space as many LPS can have up to 6" stinging cells [that only come out for short bits of time often at night, but a couple stings is often enough to kill weak polyps].

JMO, feel free to disagree. But I would not FW dip a stony coral. Nor is my experience with stonies suggest that fragging will `save' a coral ... get the coral back to health, and it'll survive. Leave it in the same conditions, with the same stressors [chemical or stinging tentacle `war'] and it will continue to degrade.

Do you run carbon? Do w/c's often?
I'd consider doing both for the meantime, at least to help rule out chemistry/other issues.
thanks very much for the reply----I realize the life of a moderator is very very busy.
I listed my water parameters above--and they have been consistently stable for months
as far as filtration I am running a dedicated fuge for feeding, and carbon and phosban in reactors.
I did make one change--I took the filter sock off for a couple of weeks---and when cyano started appearing on the substrate I put it back on--if anything that indicates an increase in phosphates athough I did not test for them at the time.
Would appreciate any other input you have--this is the first acan I have had and would like to learn any other tweaking I might have to do for it.
I stop feeding cylopeeze about 2 months ago because the refugium had matured. I only spot feed the elegance coral and the RTA





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  #22  
Old 12/18/2007, 01:25 PM
MiddletonMark MiddletonMark is offline
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I would spot feed that `hungry' LPS, despite any refugium. Personally, I've never been convinced that they provide that much food ... esp for the large bodies of these corals.

IMO, whenever a coral has issues or recession, feeding [provided no nutrient issues] is generally one of my first responses.

I would still consider w/c's. Never know what's in the water.
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  #23  
Old 12/18/2007, 01:32 PM
capn_hylinur capn_hylinur is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by MiddletonMark
I would spot feed that `hungry' LPS, despite any refugium. Personally, I've never been convinced that they provide that much food ... esp for the large bodies of these corals.

IMO, whenever a coral has issues or recession, feeding [provided no nutrient issues] is generally one of my first responses.

I would still consider w/c's. Never know what's in the water.
I do 25 gal water changes every two weeks--due this weekend.

Spot feed it mysis? or introduce cylopeeze back in the tank. I used to use cycopeeze and mysis combined twice a week. The hour before the attinics go off. I would turn the main pump off for 45 min but keep the flow in the tank going.
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  #24  
Old 12/19/2007, 05:56 PM
twon8 twon8 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by capn_hylinur
I do 25 gal water changes every two weeks--due this weekend.

Spot feed it mysis? or introduce cylopeeze back in the tank. I used to use cycopeeze and mysis combined twice a week. The hour before the attinics go off. I would turn the main pump off for 45 min but keep the flow in the tank going.
I would spot feed it mysis

I would do the water change sooner.

the fact that the rest of the coral looks inflated makes me think it was stung. a torch could easily do that to an acan. they are nasty
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  #25  
Old 12/20/2007, 01:07 AM
Patwa Patwa is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by twon8
I've never heard of rtn on an acan...
Brown jelly....it's a bacterial infection i believe, and is a notorious and exceptionally fast killer of acans and other mussids such as micros. It's very easy to control though, but it does tend to occur in tanks with off-balance levels.....if you've ever seen it in action you'll know it can wipe out an entire acan colony, literally overnight. I had one buddy lose a good percentage of his aussie acans this way....it was only after fragging and treatment that he able to curb the spread.

that being said....in the above case, i do believe it's the elegance coral that has stung the acan.....elegance corals are capable of inflating to a very large degree, so i do think it would have been pretty easy for it to reach acan...cataphyllia corals also have one of most potent stings around; an acan lord is no match for an elegance.

Zach
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