What Substrate to use...I'm confused.

[krzyphsygy]

I really want to go bare bottom but I am a little afraid of falling rock and have no idea where to get starboard. I am going SPS with about 100lbs of LR in a 75gl.

Should I do a small bag of sand or a deep sand bed. I had a 4in sand bed before and it was not really what everyone says. I fed very little and had 20ppm of nitrates. I ran a ETSS Reef Devil Skimmer with alot of flow and weekly 15% water changes.

Any experience would be cool.

[Zedar]

This topic usually starts a heated debate... Zedar places his armor on..

Most would agree that a sandbed will at some time become filled with detritus and need to be replaced.

A DSB (deep sand bed) is left alone (you don't clean it) till it starts to leak waste back into the tank. How long that will take, is determined by a number of factors. Some people have had DSB last for 10 years or longer. The avg is about 5 years. But thats not a scientific number by any means.

I say left alone, because some people clean their DSB's. Most don't.

Most use fine sand for their DSB. Fine as in small size particles. Otherwise known as sugar sized. Because its the size of a grain of sugar.

They also recommend using agronite instead of silica sand. Thats a whole other heated debate.

The other option is a SSB (shallow sand bed) thats vacuumed often and replaced as needed. It's used for aesthetics and doesn't serve any biological function. As opposed to a DSB which acts as a biofilter.

The DSB houses a colony of bacteria that remove nitrate from the water. So it serves a purpose. Albeit one that will come back to bite you on the butt if not monitored.

This is what lead to the BB (barebottom) tank. But the BB tank needs high flow and "properly placed high flow" to keep detritus in suspension. So that needs to be considered when going BB.
You'll also want an OVER SIZED quality skimmer, plumbed into the overflow to catch and remove that detritus before it has a chance to break down. I can't stress enough how important a skimmer is for the BB method.

Allot of people started using the "DSb in a bucket" on their BB tanks to lower Nitrates. The advantage to this is they can remove the sandbed if it becomes filled with detritus.

So theres really no right or wrong way. You'll have to decide what you prefer.

A good skimmer will make any of these methods more successful.
Good husbandry, not over feeding, also help.

[RichConley]

This is what lead to the BB (barebottom) tank. But the BB tank needs high flow and "properly placed high flow" to keep detritus in suspension. So that needs to be considered when going BB.
You'll also want an OVER SIZED quality skimmer, plumbed into the overflow to catch and remove that detritus before it has a chance to break down. I can't stress enough how important a skimmer is for the BB method.

This is ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENT from how a Sand Bed tank should be set up.

If you want to run BB, run BB. Falling rock isnt as much of an issue as people make it out to be (remember, we're not talking about air here, we're talking about water) and there are easy ways to GUARANTEE that rock can not fall. (Drilled, with acrylic rods)

The DSB houses a colony of bacteria that remove nitrate from the water. So it serves a purpose. Albeit one that will come back to bite you on the butt if not monitored.

DSBs only fail if the tanks aren't properly set up. If you have high flow, and a huge skimmer, the bed wont be a problem. If you have no flow, and a small skimmer, its going to be one.

The big difference between BB and DSB is that the DSB gives you a block of time before your mistakes show up. You can have totally inadequate nutrient export, and you wont have any problems for a year. If you have inadequate nutrient export in a BB, you'll see it immediately.

[Rizing]

i just love the way this guy replies.... with experts like him who needs any "real" experts"

[RichConley]

Originally posted by Rizing
i just love the way this guy replies.... with experts like him who needs any "real" experts"

Thanks for helping this guy with his barebottom tank. Your contribution to this thread is priceless, and he would never have been able to complete his tank without you.

Bravo, you sir, are a wonderful human being.

[Rizing]

ego clearly overshadowing knowledge here.. iwas simply pointing out the way you reply comes off as snobbish 90% of the time. i usually just read posts not make them but i tire if reading you CAPITALIZED points and OPINIONS

[RichConley]

I applaud your contribution to this thread.


Now, can we please get back to discussing the subject at hand, and not your opinion of my ego.

I have kept a LOT of tanks. Both BB, and DSB. I believe, and it has been my experience, that the vast majority of problems with DSBs come from a couple things:

1. Inadequate nutrient export
2. Inadequate flow.

I you disagree, post so. If you have some relevant oppinion, post it.


If you want to take personal shots at me, then take it to PM, or grow up.

[Zedar]

Originally posted by RichConley
This is ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENT from how a Sand Bed tank should be set up.


Not really, you cant get that kind of flow without sand blowing everywhere. And what if you want to setup an LPS tank. Your statement is too generalized


If you want to run BB, run BB. Falling rock isnt as much of an issue as people make it out to be (remember, we're not talking about air here, we're talking about water) and there are easy ways to GUARANTEE that rock can not fall. (Drilled, with acrylic rods)

Agreed


DSBs only fail if the tanks aren't properly set up. If you have high flow, and a huge skimmer, the bed wont be a problem. If you have no flow, and a small skimmer, its going to be one.

The big difference between BB and DSB is that the DSB gives you a block of time before your mistakes show up. You can have totally inadequate nutrient export, and you wont have any problems for a year. If you have inadequate nutrient export in a BB, you'll see it immediately.

I'm only offering him options. I wont argue the pro/cons of a particular method.

[RichConley]

Not really, you cant get that kind of flow without sand blowing everywhere. And what if you want to setup an LPS tank. Your statement is too generalized

I just took down a 58g tank with a 4" sandbed running 2 2500GPH Maximods, a 1700gph Tunze 6060, and a pair of SEIO 820s. I was keeping SPS and LPS. Thats more flow than any BB tank I have ever seen. Thats 155x turnover if you want to do out the numbers.


If you're having sand storm issues, its a pump placement issue, not a flow issue.


It is my oppinion that you dont need nearly the flow in a BB tank that you need in a DSB. Why? Because in a BB tank, you can put the pumps low, and face them pointed down, and nothing will settle. I'm managing to keep everything off the bottom with roughly 60 times turnover in the 72. I needed 150x turnover in the sandbed tank to keep the same effect. Why? Because the pumps needed to be mounted low, and pointed upward.

[Fredfish]

Whatever method you like will work: barebottom, ssb, dsb ...

Just figure out what best practices are for your chosen method. I can't help you on bb as I run dsb and skimmerless.

Thats good advice on stabalizing your rock with drilled holes and rods. Falling rock is a pita for a number of reasons.

Fred

[krzyphsygy]

Thank you all very much, I appreciate you time and thoughts. I still have much confusion though. I ran a DSB for 2 1/2 years and linked the look, I just never felt it did much. I had unexpalined nitrates in the 20-30s for most of the time with a good skimmer and 47x flow. I feed very slowly with each pc getting eated for sure. Low bioload also......I must have been doing something wrong. I like the BB idea, just afraid of falling rocks.
Does any one know the type of material that can be used on BB?? Like what type of Starboard and can it be colored???

[old salty]

I answered in your other thread and I'm too lazy to find it.


I ordered a custom piece from the cutting board factory dot com. I told them what it was for, and they recommended the "marine" grade board. I told them what size and thickness and they asked what color.

I'll take the look of sand any day over bare bottom; it's my propensity to screw things up that I am trying to avoid.

[wikusg]

Hi, you might want to look at some additional nutrient export. Maybe some cheato in your sump. BB just look very unnatural to me. I'd rather go with a 1" sand or aragonite bed and just vacuum it with water changes. The substrate also serves as a place for little critters to breed and these in turn will suppliment your corals diet. Not very much but enough to be worth mentioning.

The other fact you have to bring into consideration is the kind/type of fish you want to keep. Some fish esp gobies do better with a sandbed. IMHO a sandbed is mandatory for a mandarin.

my 2c

Wikus

[lesleybird]

Hi, I use 1 and a half inches of 1 to 2 mm. agronite and vaccuum it every three weeks when I do a 20 percent water change. Never had any problems with high nitrates. I use the 1 to 2mm. size as it is as small as you can get and not get it sucked up with the gravel vac by python. I still have a ton of worms in the sand that eat all the waste products before I suck it out. Most of the worms don't get sucked out. Have to use a net in the sink in case any stray sand comes out. Lesley

[acrylic_300]

I'm having good luck with a 2 inch bed of all different sized sands. Even some dreaded crushed coral in there. It went through all the algae phases and looked horrible but now it's as white as snow two years later and it's crawling with life.

I think you can make any bottom work...mine works without a skimmer or much flow at all. Macro algae is my biggest asset.

[gregg@AMS]

here's the way i design a tank re:substrate, DSB vs. BB, etc.

obviously, in any closed system, your primary concern is nutrient export. so, when i design a tank, i do it with that in mind before any other considerations (flow, lighting, etc)

first and foremost is the protein skimmer. i oversize the skimmer, and try to get people to get the best one they can afford. then, i look at implementing a refugium. refugiums and their effectiveness always result in heated debates, but if it is used as a component instead of the primary filtration, i believe they are extremely useful. and they have to be set up properly...i have found that refugiums grow algae more prolifically with extra water movement. and to be truly effective, i believe the algae needs to be harvested out (2/3-3/4) as soon as it reaches max density in the refugium.

ok, so if you cover all of your bases with nutrient export utilizing a good skimmer, refugium, phosphate remover and appropriate use of carbon, then you worry about your substrate.

the sand bed (or lack thereof) as a means of nutrient export should be used as an auxilary form of nutrient export rather than the primary. unfortunately, for a reef to be successful, you need to be able to properly nourish your animals, which will ultimately load your system with nutrients. thoughtful application of various filtration components will make your sand bed an afterthought.

[commabc]

Originally posted by acrylic_300
I'm having good luck with a 2 inch bed of all different sized sands. Even some dreaded crushed coral in there. It went through all the algae phases and looked horrible but now it's as white as snow two years later and it's crawling with life.

I think you can make any bottom work...mine works without a skimmer or much flow at all. Macro algae is my biggest asset.

why is crushed coral "dreaded"???

[unda_da_see]

i use crushed coral and the amount of pods living in that corse substrate is amazing. its only a detrius trap if you overfeed. any fish waste is consumed by these pods. no skimmer here and nitrates stay around 15ppm.