Unknown tap water poison

[mike5]

Hi,

Jim from TheFilterGuys.com suggested that this forum may be the best approach in figuring out the problem I'm facing.

Firstly, let me admit that I am a freshwater aquarist. Hope this does not put your off...

Now, here is the problem: there is something in the tap water that kills the fish. The contaminant has been there at least from the February of this year, and it appears that it is steadily increasing in the amount. The connection to the tap is certain at this point: a single 20% W/C with tap resulted in 2 deaths within 48 hours in one of the tanks. Deaths can be prevented with a couple of filtration methods (see below), but unless I know what I'm dealing with, I cannot filter efficiently or fully protect the animals from it. It appears that the total deaths from this contaminant are above 50 since the beginning of the year...it unfortunately took me too long to understand what is happening and treat diseases which were not :cry:

Here is some of the information:

Tap water:
TDS 41, pretty consistent.
No chloramines asaik
Very high amount of industrial phosphates (1.0-2.0). I suspect a link between the poison and phosphates.
No known contaminants accordingly to the water report (out of date: 2006, new one is not going to be available until summer of 2008)
Obvious causes (chlorine, chloramines, nitrites, ammonia) can be excluded.

Symptoms/poison effects:
On most smaller fish, asymptomatic death.
On some larger fish (2"-4"), lethargy for 2-4 days prior to death.
Affects different species differently.
Most lethal to the species that have high metabolic rate (which is here the same as high O2 requirements)
Necropsy's revealed liver damage.

Solutions that work:
1. hbhpet.com makes phosphate removal media (Aquapure). Putting it into tank filters seems to detox the poison after perhaps 36-48 hours. Strangely, this media removes only about half of the phosphates present, nonetheless it is effective against the poison.
(the solution is not practical since this media needs to be changed very often, and I do not consider it right to first put the poison in the tanks and then slowly filter it out...even if this stops deaths, it surely creates lasting damage). It appears that carbon paper is somewhat effective too, but to a lesser degree (not 100% sure).

2. DI Resin filter. I've been using Omnipure's filter for about a month, it worked. TDS removal was about 90% with the corresponding decrease in the phosphates. Unfortunately, I managed to miss the moment when the filter stopped working (the manufacturer claims about the number of gallons it can handle were off by a factor of 6), this resulted in about 10 deaths.

Current situation:
No W/C can be performed until a solution is found...hopefully I'll have another DI filter tomorrow. Nitrates are rising and before long I'll be losing fish because of them (some of the fish here cannot stand 10.0... I'm above 20.0 in all tanks already).

What I would like is to figure out what the poison is and find a way to defend against it. I'm concerned about the fish, but I do wonder about its effect on humans too. In most places, calling the water department would produce some information/test results....but in NY, this may take very long time...I'm calling them daily and still cannot get very far.

My GUESS: Arsenic. It is the usual contaminant in industrial phosphate. Liver damage is a known effect. Removal by phosphate filters makes sense, As is chemically very close to P. Cannot prove this, and it could be something else.

Diseases can be excluded: deaths occurred now in the tanks where no changes were done for many months. Tanks are totally separate, I maintain them this way to exclude every chance of a disease spread.

Any help will be very much appreciated... Right now I'm not sure how to proceed.

TIA

Michael

[sam75]

All I can say is that really sucks! I don't have any great advice, but I'll give you my opinion (for exactly what it's worth)

- for the fish, I would get an ro/di unit (seems like really the only practical way of removing the contaminants). Using straight DI is going to get costly. Yeah it's a little bit of a pain, but at least you're not subjected to the "mystery water of the month".

-For yourself, I would look into sending a water sample to an independent testing company. Not sure how much it would cost, but I know they do it for new wells and such. (in the mean time you could drink the RO water to be on the safe side).

Good luck!

[mike5]

Thanks Sam,

Yes, this is the current thinking.

I actually may be better off with a DI-only system so I've ordered one from the FilterGuys. I need to check the numbers more carefully, but RO will increase the water bill considerably, while a DI-only system will function better for me than for most people: I have a low TDS to start with. And if the cost is comparable, a DI-only system is much more convenient to operate: no holding tanks, for example.

But the best solution is to figure out what this thing is, maybe there is a simple way to take it out. There are several other reasons: I'd like to know if the fish I have had suffered permanent damage...I'd also like to know if I can ever drink water in a restaurant around here...and I'm curious.

Any recommendations on an independent water test company?

[AZDesertRat]

Having worked for Water Utilities for over 33 years my suggestion is to call your local utility and ask to speak to someone in Water Production or Treatment. Explain your situation and the fact your are an aquarist and I can almost guarantee you they will find someone on staff who is also a fish hobbyist. I cannot tell you how many times I answered calls and visited customers homes in my career all due to the fact my coworkers know reefkeeping is my hobby.
If you can find an interested party it will go a long way in answering your questions. I have often performed sampling and run samples just because it piqued my interest and more often than not was able to help the concerned customer.

Keep in mind the annual water quality report is a year old to begin with and only lists the parameters that were tested for in that particular year, they do not have to list things that have not been analyzed nor do they have to test for all contaminants every year.

I also would not rule out a RO/DI system. DI by itself is not particularly effective at things like nitrates, phosphates and silicates among others. It really takes the combination of carbon, RO and DI to be 100% effective even at low tap water TDS levels. Things like phosphates and arsenic do not register well on a TDS meter.

[mike5]

AZDesertRat,

Thank you.

I'm not ruling out using RO yet. I just need to solve the immediate problem -- do some W/C -- and DI should be good enough for this. During the month I used an inline DI, I had no problems. Unless I find out something about the nature of the poison, I possibly will add RO in a week or so. (With 300g in 10 tanks, RO is also a major change in procedures...and it will not generate the required amount of water quickly anyway).

As for calling water utility -- I wish I lived in a place similar to where you worked. NYC is different. I'm on the phone daily -- with the general City line. Water utility is under DEP, which does not list the phone at all: all contacts go through the city. The request for water tests is taken daily with no action (DEP is supposed to call back), an interdepartmental complain has been filed today (14 days for response), nothing else I can do to speed this up....(Well, file a lawsuit or go postal...not yet) Eventually I probably will get a test done, with the results most likely doctored. So I really need to find out what this is without their "help".

[Boomer]

My GUESS: Arsenic. It is the usual contaminant in industrial phosphate. Liver damage is a known effect. Removal by phosphate filters makes sense, As is chemically very close to P. Cannot prove this, and it could be something else.


It may be but I need to do some more thinkin' on your problems. GFO's, Granular Ferric Oxide Hydroxides, which we use a lot of in this hobby for PO4 removal, where really developed for Arsenic removal


Get their PhoSar HC
http://www.warnermarine.com/

Any recommendations on an independent water test company?

Yes there is only really one for seawater
http://www.enclabs.com/index.htm

For FW and drinking water NY
http://www.els-lab.com/services.htm

and
NEW YORK
(518) 485-5570
Department of Health
Wadsworth Center
Empire State Plaza
P.O. Box 509
Albany, NY 12201-0509

Others
http://www.gslabs.com/

http://www.water-research.net/

http://www.accuratetesting.com/

http://www.dep.state.pa.us/labs/

[mike5]

Thank you, Boomer, for stepping in!

I will call the labs tomorrow.

PhoSar HC -- sounds very interesting, I googled for it...

Same problem as with HBHPet's Phosphate paper: I don't want the poison to enter the tank, it is not removed instantly. There were two deaths that occurred after adding fresh anti-PO4 media (both within 48 hours -- this is apparently how long it takes to remove the poison). As the second line of defense, however, this may be the right thing.

I wonder if the following can be considered: age the tap water in a empty tank (or even a large garbage can) and run a filter with PhoSar (or other anti-phosphate media) in it for 24 hours before use. I don't understand, however, what would be the indicator that the water is safe: TDS will not change....but if the phosphate readings can be dropped by a factor of 10 this way, perhaps this is the way to go?...thinking

[Thefilterguys]

Mike I told you Boomer would be a good resource even if your a freshwater guy your always welcome here.

Jim

[Boomer]

Well Jim I'm not done yet

Mike

http://fluoridealert.org/f-arsenic.htm

Aquatic Plants and Animals. Depending upon the compound and concentration, arsenicals can inhibit or prevent aquatic plant growth. One case study showed marine algae being inhibited at concentrations as low as 19 to 22 µg As+3/L. In another study, 50% of developing embryos of the narrow-mouthed toad were dead or malformed in 7 days at 40 µg As+3/L. In general, inorganic arsenicals are more toxic than organoarsenicals to aquatic biota, and trivalent species are more toxic than pentavalent species. Early life stages are most sensitive, and large interspecies differences are recorded, even among those closely related taxonomically. Arsenic is accumulated from the water by a variety of organisms; however, there is no evidence of magnification along the aquatic food chain.


Abstract:

The bioaccumulation of arsenic (As) in milkfish was studied to assess the potential hazards of As in the aquacultural environment. The acute toxicity of As and the bioconcentration factor (BCF) value of the fish were determined. A total of 80 non-polluted milkfish were collected for the laboratory exposure experiments. The median lethal time (LT50 value) and lethal time (LT100 value), as well as the median lethal concentration (LC50 value) for milkfish were determined. The tolerance of As toxicity was examined by exposing fish to As concentrations ranging from 0-1000 µg/ml. The levels of As in the pond water and milkfish were 0.027±0.001 µg/ml (Mean±SD) and 15.20±5.10 µg/g dry wt. The value of BCFD of milkfish was 556.16±187.98 dry wt. The LC50 value for milkfish showed a significant negative relation to exposure time. Milkfish could tolerate As concentration in water higher than 10 µg/ml for more than 96 h. Lethal internal residue of As in fish body that caused 50% mortality was negatively related to the LT50 value. The lethal internal residue of As in fish body that caused 50% mortality was a linear function of As concentration in water. The results indicated that the pond waters in the blackfoot disease (BFD) area were contaminated by As. The high tolerance of As for milkfish showed that the fish could accumulate high concentrations of As before they were harmed.


ppb = µg.

The accepted EPA for DW is MCL = 0.010 ppm = 10 ppb or 10 µg


And you are know where near these levels.
http://www.pesticideinfo.org/List_Aq...axa_Group=Fish

So there is a chance it is Ar.

[mike5]

Thank you very much Jim for directing me here; Boomer is great--I've been googling for this for long time and did not find his links!

Really interesting, Boomer...I don't know if this proves anything but there are a couple of matches with your info that make the As case stronger.

Firstly, there is a variance among closely related species. One of my interests is the Balitoridae family who appear to be very sensitive to the poison. However, the Gastromyzon genus members appear to be an exception: no losses noticed. This was a puzzle for me since they are very sensitive to many other factors: easily killed by nitrites and typically the first to go in case of any infection. Among Danio's, most species appear not to be sensitive, except for one, where I lost 4 out of 6 to the poison. Generally, Danios are about the hardiest fish one can find. The affected species is the smallest among those I keep, but it is 80% of the size of the next species, which was not affected at all.

On the species sensitivity table: unfortunately none of the species I keep is anywhere close to the ones studied...but generally the listed species are much larger and thus would be less sensitive than the fish in my tanks. It well may be that the kill dose for the species I have is 1/10 of what is found for large commercial fish.

Now, on plants: I keep very few types so I don't have much of statistics. Swords are not affected at all. However, during the previous rise in the amounts of poison (April), I had Jave Fern plants wiped out. Java Fern happens to be a very hardy plant, it does not die by itself even if you totally mistreat it. This was puzzling, so I was actually looking at As-Plants possible connection, and found nothing.

On Algae: comparing to previous years, before the toxins level rose, no effect on Brush (Hair) Algae. No effect on diadems (Brown Algae). Growth of normal (Green dot-type) Algae is severely retarded, and I fully lost it in one tank. [Incidentally, for my purposes, Green dot algae is a must-have, Brown Algae I don't care much about, and Hair Algae is a bad, currently unsolvable, problem.]

Interesting...

[Billybeau1]

Do you, or have you ever treated your tap water with a metal detoxifying agent like NovaAqua, Amquel or Stresscoat ?

[Boomer]

Mike

Glad to have helped and you may have a case, I'm just not really convinced yet it is really As. Get yourself a bunch of Polybiomarine Polyfilters and some really good GAC like that Jim has.

This was a puzzle for me since they are very sensitive to many other factors: easily killed by nitrites and typically the first to go in case of any infection

Yes FW fish are much more sensitive to NO2 than SW fish. You may want to think of adding some "FW salt" or even some marine salt if this becomes an issue. Ca++ Mg++ and especially the chloride ion, act as protective ions for NO2- toxicity. I do not remember any more if loaches can handle a small amount of salt or not but should be able to. The real issue would be the plants.

[mike5]

Originally posted by Billybeau1
Do you, or have you ever treated your tap water with a metal detoxifying agent like NovaAqua, Amquel or Stresscoat ?

Yes, all the time. AquaPlus and Prime are the two I use, both cover metals. (Amquel and Stresscoat are problematic).

[mike5]

Originally posted by Boomer
Mike

Glad to have helped and you may have a case, I'm just not really convinced yet it is really As. Get yourself a bunch of Polybiomarine Polyfilters and some really good GAC like that Jim has.

Thanks a lot, Boomer, you did provide valuable new info. Of course, As is only a theory at this point.
Polyfilters seem to be ineffective. I tried them, also I use Purigen in more sensitive tanks: no effect on toxin. This probably proves that the toxin is not a large organic molecule, but nothing else.

This was a puzzle for me since they are very sensitive to many other factors: easily killed by nitrites and typically the first to go in case of any infection

Yes FW fish are much more sensitive to NO2 than SW fish. You may want to think of adding some "FW salt" or even some marine salt if this becomes an issue. Ca++ Mg++ and especially the chloride ion, act as protective ions for NO2- toxicity. I do not remember any more if loaches can handle a small amount of salt or not but should be able to. The real issue would be the plants.

Sorry, I was not clear. I don't have a problem with NO2 and I know how to take care of it. This mostly comes from collecting as much info about river loach species from others as I could, these things are difficult to keep alive and tend to arrive with real unpleasant diseases. NO2 (and ammonia) sensitivity appears to be quite variable. Gastros appear to be very "weak" species....except for this toxin. But a very closely related genus (which was the same genus until very recently) is quickly killed by it.

BTW, the rumors of loaches not tolerant to salt are largely rumors. Balitoridae tolerate it very well, some species can be acclimated to brackish water. I did not try this myself, this is wrong to do imho, but I did try very heavy loads of NaCl on them to deal with a bacterial infection nothing else could stop...no problems.

[Boomer]

That's odd, I would expect Stresscoat to maybe be a problem and Prime over Amquel, due to their chemistry. But the full chemistry of Prime or Amquel is still somewhat of a mystery even by the manufactures in regards to all the final reactions and end products.

Did you see the other post. You need some Poly's

I'm beginning to change directions here after a re-read. I see no mention of you testing for cooper and or are the lines in your house copper. In the presence of copper Poly's turn blue. Water sitting in the line could raise the copper and when you do WC, POOF all in the tank = dead fish. Plants do not have to much of an issue with Ar but copper is deadly to many plants. Some plant/algae "killers" use copper. I think you have a copper issue. Get a copper test kit. All things now seen to point to copper and poly's will tell you that nor not.

[Caryliss]

An intrigued non-expert here. I'm curious as to the possible source of the poison. Are you thinking contamination from the supply lines in your house/apt, or the city supply? NYC is a big place--are other FW hobbiests having unexplained fish deaths, either in your neighborhood or across town?

[mike5]

Prime vs Amquel: Amquel is known to change pH in some cases, Prime does not. pH swings can be dangerous. I normally use Aqua+ since it has the least amount of chemicals in it, Prime is used only when I treat to soften possible ammonia/nitrite spikes.

Copper: metals are the 2nd suspect. Indeed, I should have gotten a copper kit already, will do. Copper specifically is very toxic to loaches, even copper-based meds kill them. However: it is probably not it. I've stayed in this location for years, and the contaminant problem developed mostly this year, there were no relevant pipe changes done.

[mike5]

Originally posted by Caryliss
An intrigued non-expert here. I'm curious as to the possible source of the poison. Are you thinking contamination from the supply lines in your house/apt, or the city supply?

I wish I knew. if the toxin is As, the source should be from the supply and affect a large chunk of the city: nearly entire NYC gets water the same way.

NYC is a big place--are other FW hobbiests having unexplained fish deaths, either in your neighborhood or across town?

I tried to check this way and did not find much. One problem is that most of the fish commonly kept (and sold by the stores) is not affected by the toxin *at the current level*. So someone who keep for example goldfish or zebra danios may see one random death and ignore it. The other problem is that the results are hard to interpret: someone across the street indeed lost all his fish, but perhaps it is because he simply had no sense how to keep it.

I did ask the lfs where I have good relations to check if their most experienced customers report anything funny. One match: a woman who breeds guppies for resell has a noticeable death rate rise. Most of the store customers are unfortunately saltwater, and they are all on R/O and/or phosphate filters already....apparently, reefs cannot be maintained at our phosphate levels.

[mike5]

PS. GAC does not appear to be effective. I used Omnipure K5655 (DI Resin) for about a month -- no deaths among the fish..until the filter died. Then when I could not find this filter anywhere, I tried filtering with K5686 (GAC) and this led to more deaths.

[Boomer]

Mike

and the contaminant problem developed mostly this year, there were no relevant pipe changes done.

That can be because the city changed water chemistry like adding antiscaling agents and it is not the first time. What has happen to you has happened to many, only it is usually not a As or Cu problem but very high pH, PO4 or chloramines. Get some Polyfilters to be sure. They are better than a test kit as an indicator

[Boomer]

Well then maybe back to the Ar as GAC is not very effective with GAC but is with Cu, as AS likes metal surfaces like GFO's. Here this will knock your socks off


RAPID SMALL-SCALE COLUMN TESTING FOR ARSENIC ADSORPTION MEDIA
http://ipec.utulsa.edu/Conf2002/arag...chwirka_50.pdf

I think only a assay is going to give us the answer

[mike5]

I will still get a test kit for Copper to close this. I did go through the garbage can just now to look at the polyfilter discarded a couple of days ago...gray, nothing copper-bluish to it.

Very high PO4 *is the case* here, tap reads 1.0-2.0. However, PO4 normally is not dangerous to fish or freshwater setups.

Meanwhile, I did get Jim's Dual-DI. It outperforms the Omnipure filter: instead of a TDS drop 41->4, it is 41->0/1...thank you Jim! All that remains is to convince myself and start doing W/C's... last W/C ended very badly.

I wonder about this
As test

[Boomer]

Yes go for that kit Sorry I forgot to look. I have their catalog. 10 ppb. You might be able to run dilution on it and get it to 1 ppb

tap reads 1.0-2.0

More than likely a city additive for scaling. Usually a polyphosphate that easily is converted to orthophosphate, what the kit is measuring.

[mike5]

TY! Probably don't need 1ppb...i really need the presence. But unfortunately they don't have the kit in stock, the earliest for the results will be the end of the next week.

[kysard1]

very common for water to have petroleum contamination. The allowable level is absurd. Try buying the filter guys dual GAC filter and only use it for ylour fish water (GAC is consumed quickly).