Lineage - Definition, Discussion & Debate

[MinibowMatt]

lineage (in reefing) is only a way for sellers to *try* to command a higher price for their morph.
Personally I could care less who it came from and what they called it. If it is nice looking, and I want it, I will pay a fair price. If they think I am stupid, and will pay an enormous amount cause it has "lineage" they are more stupid than they think I am.

I had a named zoa...I played in the craze early on, now, I have had that zoa and pic removed from the site that helps keep this silly lineage/naming craze going..
I am not trying to impress anyone with "what zoas are in my tank" I just want atank that myself and my family think is pretty.

[nalbar]

Lineage in and of itself is unimportant, even to those who ask for it (even when THEY think it is important)

Lineage is just one of the 'conditions' people use to add value to their polyp AND DEVALUE OTHERS.

The 'conditions' for approval that I have seen so far;

1. Lineage
2. Appearance
3. Behavour (includes requirements)
4. And the new one.. Geographic location


These are not separate 'conditions', you need all of them, or at least three. For instance, you purchase a PPE from Perun, but it morphs. Obviously it is not a PPE, because it does not look like one. Or it looks like one, acts like one, but you have no receipt so it CAN'T be a PPE!

If you notice, the 'conditions' are pretty arbritrary. They are really just a method to exclude. That is why you get a lot of 'that is not a -----' in for sale threads, even when something looks quite a lot like it's name (so alike no body across the country on a computer can make that decision).

Lineage is interconnected with that third rail of polyps, names. While names can have a value (when I write 'PPE' pretty much everyone knows what I am talking about), most of the time they are marketing scam used to separate a person from their money. A pink is a pink is a pink. Different lights, different camera = different color.

All of this is simply a method of narrowing a particular morph to as few individuals as possible, preferably to only those YOU own. That makes them more valuable.

BTW Mucho, as much as you deny it, you are caught up in this game also. Do you realize how many times you have posted about your 'fantastic purple, the greatest color I have ever seen'? We all get caught up in it. Who here can deny that they search LFS's for that under colored hidden treasure that will impress others?


nalbar

[MUCHO REEF]

Trust me my friend, and I can assure you with 100 % certainty, I could care less about a name and I respect the rights of others who do. If you go back and read the 5 times I have mentioned those blue palys, and I was waiting for someone to say what you said, you'll find that I used adjectives, not names, which are nouns, to describe those palys. I never once said the word "fantastic". I described how they looked to me, "Stunning big blue palys". I'm a very descriptive writer. If I was caught up as you say, I would have said, "Mucho's Blue Galactic Palys", Maximus Blue Palys etc etc. If I was caught up in the name game, I would have posted a picture of them everywhere. If I was truly caught up in the "NAME GAME".

Undercolored ? If you mean not as vibrant as others, I search for them all the time. To this day, I still have common dull green palys in my tank, light mint green, pale yellow, well over 200 of these. Most people wouldn't care to even look at them, but I do, and they don't have a name other than dull green or yellow palys.

I'm not caught up with names and lineage at all, I must admit, I am caught up with being very descriptive sometimes though. LOL at myself.

Everyone here is entitled to their opinion, I've heard yours my friend and I hope I expressed mine. I just hope the topic stays on lineage. Welcome to the zoa forum BTW, hope you stay with us.

Mucho

[SPStoner]

Mucho- like yourself, I have been doing this a long time...since the mid to late 80's. When we started in this hobby, nothing was sold by the polyp. That's right...nothing. Many of the new generation of reefers are amazed to hear that you used to be able to buy ricordia rock just like you by live rock now. Many LFS had tanks full of it that they sold by the pound, not the polyp. Zoos and all others were sold by the colony only. If someone back then had said they wanted to sell me 3 polyps of zoos, or whatever, I would have died of laughter.
That being said, while I am not into the naming stuff myself, I have many "named" pieces of coral, some that I have grown out and sold to help fund my addiction. Heck, I even have some of my corals that others have bought and named after me. But it is not something I would ever do myself. I will echo many of the people who have posted in this thread. I like corals, I like to enjoy my aquariums. If there is a piece I like, and I can afford it, I will purchase it. I will not buy anything just because it came from Tyree or anyone else.

Sorry to get this thread sidetracked by my nostalgic rant, but threads like this make me dream about the good ol' days!

[Agu]

Many years ago I had a mixed reef 180 with 400 w Iwasakis. I was known as the guy with the great big brown( translate ugly) SPS corals. I gave tons of frags away to club members and under their higher color temp lights some of the corals turned amazing colors. Nobody wanted to claim lineage to my tank LOL.

Back in the day nobody bragged, "I have a bunch of ugly Agu corals".

[geoxman]

See that is where you messed up!! You could have named them-chocolate midnight, distressing august, cinnamon temptation, or bourbon polyps and you would have made a fortune?? Next time you will know what to do! LOL

good luck

[nalbar]

No mattter how hard you try, the naming issue cannot be removed from the lineage issue. They are basicly the same issue. While naming has brought more interest to polyps, overall I think its benefits are limited.

The buying by polyp is tragic. It works for large polyps like PPE's and those similar, but far too many zoos are better off not being fragged in such a manner. They are simply to small, and the way they spread to fragile to stand the rigors of shipping in small numbers reliably.

But I think the worst result of naming is that polyps get treated as investments, not as animals to be allowed to grow into a tank. They are put on plugs (the bain of reef tanks) and then set on racks to protect them. Polyps are not allowed to grow into each other for the fear of an unwanted morph, and kept on easy to remove plugs so they can be easily fragged.

It just seems to me that over the last few years the grown in display tank has been more and more replaced with grocery shelf type tanks. I suppose its a good thing. Years ago we used to struggle just keeping stuff alive, now it's all propagation.

nalbar

[Scythanith]

For me lineage does not matter unless I want to buy the story as well as the coral. I honestly think the only thing I'd buy because of the name would be some PPE. I think they are gorgeous, the bold colour contrasts and their reaction to feeding and touch is very neat! I have paid big cash for single polyps, but it wasn't due to the lineage, it was because I thought it looked amazing!

One of the more comical things I see is when two online retailers get a shipment from the same wholesaler and the same colony that has been ripped into two pieces. They then name the coral something colourful and awe inspiring and post their pictures up. So here you have two "named" corals which are the exact same item, and two retailers charging different amounts (usually ~$10 a polyp) for it since there is no control or cap on the market.

People see a ~$5 polyp and think wow what a deal! But like Mucho has said multiple times, he's bought and sold full colonies for $30-$60 frequently. This won't end until the fad cools down, simple as that. There are enough people in this hobby with plenty of disposable income that they can blow on corals, and this only benifits the retailers so it's not like they are all going to drop their prices just because a few complain.

I personally buy corals because they are pretty. I am certainly guilty of buying named corals and have no doubt in my mind that I will continue buying named corals since every coral out there now has a name haahaa!

I preach the LFS owner/customer relationship importance on almost every thread concerning livestock. There is nothing more important that having a solid relationship with your LFS, they are the ones that will give you a call when they get that gorgeous coral in and tell you to get your butt down to the store before someone else see's it. I've seen my LFS sell a rainbow Trachyphyllia for 1/4 of what it goes for online. They aren't as corrupted as the online retailers yet. We still have local reefers that sell frags of blue acro's orange monti's and very pretty zoo's for mere dollars!

I have been slowly building up my reef with gorgous specimens and playing with their location within the tank to see the effects of lighting and flow on them (mostly chalices, blasto's and acans/micros). I constantly want them to look a little better or eat a little better. I want my tank to look nice, and retailers aren't stupid, they know they can charge more money for nice looking specimens so what options does that leave me? Do I stop buying coral in order to help drive down the market? Do I wait for my colonies to get larger and participate in trades with local reefers? I know the answers to my own questions, I just like putting them out there for everyone to think about as well.

I appologize for the verbal diarrhea, but this all just kind came to mind so I figured what the hell.... type away!

Scott

[Scythanith]

On that note of be friends with your LFS, mine gave me these for free.



They had no name that I was aware of, and I still would have paid 10 bucks a polyp for them!

[bobafett]

My LFS gets amazing zoos from time to time. He doesn't frag or put a fancy name on the, just a price. He knows whats going on out there with these crazy names and per polyp prices and is just disgusted and won't play along. The fact is that he buys all his zoos at about the same price regardles of color which is usually about $15-$20 wholesale and will sell them for about $40-$60 depending on size of the colony (not color). I picked up a really nice colony of about 150 bam bams for only $50. He is well aware that they usually sell for about $5 a polyp on line. There is no way he would have sold me that colony for $750. He knows that these online stores get their zoos from the same suppliers he does and pay the same prices or less due to their higher volumes. I guess as long as people are willing to pay these high prices for fancy names the retailers will keep pumping out new names to keep the cycle going.

[delsol650]

SUPPLY AND DEMAND, and we are a capitalistic nation arent we? LOL

[kawicivic]

I like the name game.... I name all of my zoos by whatever they look like to me. I have a set each of "BK Zoos" and "BK Polyps." BK stands for butter knife because I told my friend I would take the butter knife to them after my tank was full of nicer looking corals.... I still refer to them to this day as the BKs and they are still in the tank 6 months later. I also have hairy zoos and a few different types that I refer to as "the pinks."

I think the saddest part of lineage for me was when I began reefing I looked forward to going to my first frag swap. I thought that this would be an affordable way to get some nice pieces of coral. I have to drive about an hour to find all of the nicer shops in the chicago area to get nice colors and then pay pet store prices. I figured other hobbyists would be looking to make a few bucks... not gouge people. There was one seller that I bought yellow polyps from for $5 bucks... I see these online for $20+ all the time. I bought a green slimer from the same guy for $5. Then I went to some other booths and found people selling "neon green trumpets" for $5-10 a head. Then there were people selling zoos for $X per head. When I resell my zoos I typically will make a decent frag (5-10 heads) for $5. Why do I charge? Anytime you give things away people end up taking advantage of you... I charge because I don't want people begging me for free stuff since I gave it to one person (one person always ruins it for others). I have a close friend that reefs and he gets anything he wants out of my tank.

Onto more on topic about lineage.... Recently a store closed down and was offering $5 zoa frags. I bought 4-5 of them. This same store has reverted to their roots and has focused on their online store again. I recently saw two of the $5 frags that I bought were listed for 35-45 and they each had a fancy name. I would have never paid that much for a frag of any of those but put a name on it and sell it in the WYSIWYG section and watch them make loads of profit from it.

[nalbar]

Bob said
"My LFS gets amazing zoos from time to time. He doesn't frag or put a fancy name on them, just a price."

Most of the LFS I frequent do the same. I think they just don't have the time to mess with it all. It's easier to just move the coral and get more stock. Charging by the polyp means fragging, sometimes down to just one polyp, and then sitting on them while people dicker on price.



nalbar

[geoxman]

I just sneezed and this shot back to the top??

[MUCHO REEF]

kawicivic, you hit the nail on the head with 2nd and 3rd paragraphs my friend. Extremely factual.

[kawicivic]

There is a good example of the lineage debate in the selling forum. There is a guy selling a Purple People Eater colony of 80+ polyps. He has no lineage but they look exactly like them. He is asking $2000 because most people only frag these "rare" corals. Many people are asking for lineage in order for them to pay the high prices. I don't think they would flinch if he had lineage but since he doesn't they are thinking he is crazy. The seller stated that maybe he should contact Blane and he could turn around and sell them for $50 a head.

In my opinion lineage and naming of polyps is great for identification purposes. To be able to tell someone I have Kryptonite zoos or Candy Apple reds and have them know what I am talking about is a lot better than describing the skirt lenght, stem length, and the various colors associated. I will also continue to frequent my local fish stores for good deals on zoos (compared to internet prices).

Thanks for the compliment Mucho... you have started some great threads and a compliment coming from you means a lot!

[Pufferpunk]

I agree with a lot of the above. I really feel impressive though, when folks are looking over my stuff either just to look or to buy, when I can name my corals. Any of them! Same with all the fish in my 8 tanks. I can't tell you how many folks have no idea what they have in their tanks!

As far as lineage... I have none, so it really doesn't matter to me. Does it come with a signed document or something? I have a small piece of Watermelon chalice that I paid $90 for. That's a lot of $$$ for me to spend on a 1/2" piece of anything. You know what? It's growing really well, it's a beautiful blinding hot pink w/green mouths & rim & I don't care if's a Tyree LE or not. I did however, ask the guy I got if from if there was a lineage & he told me where he got it from. Since I'm pretty sure I'll never frag such a beautiful piece, I really don't care.

[JeffReef]

I think that lineage is important for resale and for bragging rights. It is important to those collectors who sell, or plan on selling frags and showing off their collection to friends and to this forum. Of course, lineage only matter if the 'lineage-tor' is credible.

[Pufferpunk]

Exactly what I mean. Without something in writing (which can be forged very easily, I'd imagine), all we can do is compare them to the names at Zoa ID.

[Runfrumu]

The name thing means nothing to me. The thing is, I don't hang around anyone else that keeps a reef tank, all of my friends like it, but none do it. So bragging about "I have some PPE polyps right there, I paid 100 bucks for those 2 little things" around the people I know would just get me alot of strange looks.

I've noticed in this hobby that all the best looking stuff is "rare".

[MUCHO REEF]

But everything posted as rare.....isn't. Usually it's just a marketing ploy to get you to buy it.

[Runfrumu]

As for $2000 for some zoa's, they'd better do my water changes for me and clean the glass.

[kawicivic]

Originally posted by Runfrumu

I've noticed in this hobby that all the best looking stuff is "rare".

I have also noticed the same thing... I would really think that the best looking stuff would be everywhere because everyone keeps them and aquacultures them.

Maybe someone that has quite a few of the rare corals could answer this: Do they really grow that slow? Are they hard to keep color? Is keeping them harder than keeping regular zoos?

Another thing: I have heard people say that ________ rare coral is hard to frag and will melt easily. Is this because people try to frag single heads all the time? vs multiple heads? I have found making small frags is wayyy harder than larger frags.

(sorry for the slightly off topic post but it should make for some decent discussion)

[Flybynight]

My PPE, and Mowhaks grows much slower than my Blue tubs, Rpe, Stardust PE, Green Apples, Red Apples. My sour apples melted away within 3 days of getting them in. I will say when you frag one at a time it is lots harder.

[Pitcom]

Lineage is not important to me whatsoever. A nice polyp is just that, a nice polyp no matter where it comes from. I do howver like the naming of of zoas/palys. Only for the fact that when somone mentions the name i can associate a "face" to it. That way when I'm at the LFS and im talking to other people about making trades, we can talk about what we have to see what we're interested in in trading.