Nitrate Reduction 101 with sugar!!! - Page 5

Angel*Fish · #**101** 08/11/2006, 04:57 PM

.What about tossing in a cherry Lifesaver for timed release? Or rock candy - you could even add a teeny reactor along your water top off line

spineshank385 · #**102** 08/11/2006, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fishykid9212
Well I didn't mean to start an argument. I did do a lot of research before I started and I originally used vodka, it does the same thing. Sugar is a lot easier to dose. As I said I have tested this I ised a heaping teaspoon every day for a few days, I watched the fish VERY closely, I actually couldn't see them because the water was cloudy but absolutely nothing of mine died. Most of the people that have tried it, swear by it. The people that have never used it are the ones who say it's not the right thing to do. It is important that you use it at your own risk but if you dose small you shouldn't have any problems. If you want to try it, by all means try it, just becareful and do every thing slow. I started this thread to only help people who were suffering from nitrate problems, which is why I started sdding sugar. I didn't mean to start a controversial; argument.

anyone else see anything wrong with a 17 year old kid having a steady supply of vodka?

Peter Eichler · #**103** 08/11/2006, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Angel*Fish
.What about tossing in a cherry Lifesaver for timed release? Or rock candy - you could even add a teeny reactor along your water top off line

Saltwater taffy would probably be best

coralnut99 · #**104** 08/11/2006, 06:25 PM

All puns aside, fishykid did exactly what this forum is all about; sharing experiences so the hobby grows. He's certainly not the only one to do it, and certainly not the last. Each of us is here to simply take from his experience exactly what we want.

I think fishykid is pretty cool for sharing with all of us. Especially if he was 16 when he started dosing vodka!

DaveBrader · #**105** 08/12/2006, 01:42 AM

Water changes are not a necessity at all... I have NEVER done a water change on my system. Total volume is 200 gallons, and the only new water it gets is when I drain and clean the skimmer or other equipment and add fresh saltwater to it when I reconnect the equipment.

My water parameters are perfect.

Everything is Zero that is supposed to be Zero, Alk is 8.4 , Calcium 460, PH constant 8.2, Temp constant 80. Fish anad corals all healthy and growing.. Skimmer rarely produces much skimmate at all, unless I feed very heavily.

I replace 4 gallons a day to evaporation, replaced with Limewater.

This system is almost three years old now, and I am not exxagerating at all, NEVER has a water change been done.

I do have a 50 gallon sump that has a ball of Chaetomorpha in it that weighs about 5 lbs...

I have an above tank refugium, 20 gallon with an 8" sandbed, and small plenum. I have an Eheim wet dry that I inherited with the system when I first got it, and a 30 gallon coral propagation tank, plumbed into the same sump.

So, the bottom line is, with proper filtration, no water changes are necesary. I do dose some elements , but only a few. Iodide being one.

NOW, my point. I left of vacation not long ago. IT was the first time I had been away for more than a couple of days. My sons fed the tank while I was gone, and OVER FED alot. When I returned my nitrates were 50. I dosed sugar for four days, at the rate of 1 Tsp per day. At the end of the fourth day the Nitrates were less than 5. I stopped dosing the sugar, and everything is stable and Nitrates are staying low.

I knew the cause of the excess Nitrates. Knew that I was not going to overfeed, and without changing one gallon of water, had my nitrates undercontrol in four days...

I think that SUGAR is an excellant way to get nitrates under control under certain circumstances. BUT I do not think sugar is a method to be used to take the place of poor husbandry.

Dave

greenfroggiespawn · #**106** 08/12/2006, 04:17 AM

how would u naturally reduce nitrate?
through the rocks?

DaveBrader · #**107** 08/12/2006, 08:03 AM

Well Greenfrogiespawn, the real issue is that in nature, there is no such thing as high nitrates. It doesn't happen. It is unique to our closed systems. So, in actuality, HIGH nitrates are a product of our UNnatural closed system. So why would one think their would be a "natural" way to reduce a problem that is Unnatural?

Dave

STEELERFAN747 · #**108** 08/12/2006, 08:20 AM

I think fishykid is pretty cool for sharing with all of us. Especially if he was 16 when he started dosing vodka!
(I just hope he was not dosing vodka himself/ ha ha ha)

But all joking aside. I agree. I think that it was cool of him to share. (I feel I am probably the reason he posted this in the first place"help me. I have nitrates!!", I am going to try removing my bio-balls first as well as iv'e been trying to fine tune my skimmer and if that does not work I will add a refugium (simply because it sounds a little more common to me), but if he has had success with it we should not knock it)

Bables · #**109** 08/12/2006, 08:26 AM

I just read the whole thread and find some peoples attitude amazing.
If we all live by popular believes we all be still living in caves and think that the earth is flat. It is the people that think outside the box that makes the difference.
In our hobby everything constantly changing for the better thank to the people that are not afraid to experiment.

puffer21 · #**110** 08/12/2006, 10:21 AM

Bables
[welcome]

Angel*Fish · #**111** 08/12/2006, 01:39 PM

DaveBrader,
It seems like something would eventually build up without any water changes - I don't know what exactly though - do you test TDS?

I know one reason for a lack of build up on the wild reef is constant huge "water changes" and I suppose relatively low bioload. Has anybody ever estimated how many inches of fish/gallon in the oceans combined? Hmmm..who should we nominate to do that?

Anyway as you pointed out our tanks are not wild reefs, we may use/imitate nature, but there have to be differences.

Ryanqk · #**112** 08/12/2006, 04:19 PM

Wow i liked this thread, i've had a problem with nitrates in the short term in one of my tanks and the information here is useful.
I'm assuming that since everyone using this method runs a skimmer, the process can only be used when you have a skimmer. I run without one, by choice. I would take all my bio-supplements out of the tank if i did so thats my reasoning. If one was to add a few limewood airstones to raise dissolved O2 levels would that help the "crash" in oxy levels that yall mentioned?
Also I dont think its wrong for some people to experiment a bit after all without it we wouldnt ever have even invented the light bulb. Life is trial and error. I am trying to lower nitrates in a 30gl tank that is mature but is spiking in nitrates. I know i prob overfeed, but im trying to revive certain corals which require a food saturation... sun polyps. so is there anything i can do other than changing water twice a week? And could this sugar method be modified for skimmerless tanks.?
Thanks for the input!
Ryan

spineshank385 · #**113** 08/12/2006, 05:14 PM

you could pull the sun polyps out of your tank and target feed in a bowl of tank water once or twice a week. Thats what i used to do.

mattsilvester · #**114** 08/12/2006, 05:19 PM

ryanqk

from what I can gather, by adding suger you will get an explosion in bacteria populations. By using air stones, as you describe, you would probably offset most negative effects on oxygen levels as much as a skimmer would.

However, a bacterial explosion also means a massive increase in the number of dying bacteria. This is why peoples skimmers pull out more gunk...... air stones would not off set this.

While nitrate is being reduced mostly by converting nitrate to gas and "bubbling" out of the system, it is also being reducing it in a secondary mannor. That is, the amount of nutrients in the system are being absorbed at a faster rate by bacteria - this bacteria is in turn dying off at a faster rate, where by they are getting skimer out before they have a chance to degrade into nitrate.......

In short, while it is in theory possible to proceed without a skimmer, I personally would not...... I would be afraid of a potential ammonia and nitrite spike as a result of the bacteria bloom and subsequent die off..... if you don't skim this off then I see nowhere else for it to go other than down the amonia>nitrite>nitrate route...... which will produce the spike that I would be worried about.

Just for the record, I have not tried this method....... but it seems logical enough......

HTH

Matt

DaveBrader · #**115** 08/12/2006, 07:27 PM

Marie,

I do test for DOC's in a way. The Skimmer Production is a good test for Disolved Organics since that it was it removes. I have a Euroreef 8-2 , modified as a RECIRC skimmer, with a Sedra 5000 and a Sedra 3500 both RECIRC pumps, and feed the skimmer directly from my overflow. When my water is dirty this skimmer produces the foulest most disgusting skimmate imaginable. When it is clean, it barely produces a drop. I also run Ozone, and ORP is also a good test for DOCs. My ORP remains consistently at 390-410. With those numbers, and all other tests within specified parameters, I am confident my water quality is excellant.

Even when my sons way overfed the tank, the only parameter that was bad was NITRATES, and they are back to Zero again. Dropped from 50 to 5 in four days dosing the sugar, and got to Zero three days after stopping the sugar dose.

During the four days I was dosing the sugar, I also tested daily for Disolved Oxygen, since Oxygen depletion is a possiblility when dosing Sugar or Vodka, due to a bacteria bloom and subsequent die off. My Disolved Oxygen also tested normal during this time.

So all in all I have yet to find a reason to start doing water changes. The few elements that need replenishing , which is done with saltmixes and water changes, I do with Dosing. I buy the raw elements and mix my own dosing mixtures with RODI water and the pure element. For example, I dose Iodide weekly and all it takes for my Iodine, Iodide test to be within normal parameters is to dose 7ml per week. Prior to my dosing Iodide, my Iodine levels always tested low because of course I did not do water changes adding Iodine with the fresh saltwater mix.

I personally believe that more people do harm to their systems with water changes than do good. If a water change volume is too great, you can start a new cycle even. And I have seen it done. I knew some people who got a bad NITRATE Test kit, and when Testing for Nitrates always tested over 40. The LFS had them doing 25% water changes everyday for weeks trying to get it under control. I went to their home with my test kits, and when I tested for Nitrates they were less than 5, while their kit tested at over 40. What happened to them during this time is that their system never developed a stable Nitrogen Cycle. When I had them stop doing water changes, everything cleared up in their system in a week. They were flushing their Nitrogen Cycle away daily with those 25% water changes, and never attained a good Nitrification Cycle in their system.

So I guess all I am saying in my long winded way, is that anything can be harmful if it is not done properly. I listened very closely to some things when I first started in this hobby. DO NOT ADD ANYTHING to your system you do not TEST for, especially Essential Elements, and alway always always make changes slowly, and patiently await the results of those changes. Those two things have always worked very well for me. I have never had ICH in my system, I have never had a fish die, and most recently, I bought a Sailfin Tang that had Lateral Line so bad, I was afraid she would not make it at all, but after a week in my Coral Prop Tank, which also has a bed of Chaetomorpha in it, the Lateral Line was completely cured on one side of the fish, and about 75% cured on the other side, and today she is a very healthy and beautiful Sailfin that would most certainly have died if I had not rescued her.

The only way I will ever do any sort of major water changes is if something really catastrophic happened, like one of my grandchildren dumping something in the water or such..

Dave

Herpervet · #**116** 08/12/2006, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ryanqk
Wow i liked this thread, i've had a problem with nitrates in the short term in one of my tanks and the information here is useful.
I'm assuming that since everyone using this method runs a skimmer, the process can only be used when you have a skimmer. I run without one, by choice. I would take all my bio-supplements out of the tank if i did so thats my reasoning. If one was to add a few limewood airstones to raise dissolved O2 levels would that help the "crash" in oxy levels that yall mentioned?
Also I dont think its wrong for some people to experiment a bit after all without it we wouldnt ever have even invented the light bulb. Life is trial and error. I am trying to lower nitrates in a 30gl tank that is mature but is spiking in nitrates. I know i prob overfeed, but im trying to revive certain corals which require a food saturation... sun polyps. so is there anything i can do other than changing water twice a week? And could this sugar method be modified for skimmerless tanks.?
Thanks for the input!
Ryan

I wouldn't go as far as saying you can't do this without a skimmer.

There are systems like Steve Tyree's that utilize natural filtration (sponges, tunicates, bivalves) that are very efficient at removing suspended bacteria.

I would be more cautious however as skimmerless systems tend to be less forgiving.

Kudo's to you guys for exploring this idea. Dosing sugar or vodka may not be the most logical choice for small systems given a water change is relatively easy and cost effective.

For really large systems like mine (1100gallons total volume) this concept could prove very useful and save a lot of money.

boxfishpooalot · #**117** 08/12/2006, 10:53 PM

I did an experiment with sugar. I scooped a glass of tank saltwater in a cup.Put a heap of sugar in it. The next morning the water was thick with fog. The snail that was in there was dead, the mysids shrimps were also dead. I suspect from oxygen depletion.

The nitrate whent up rather than down. But, I need to see what would happen with a sand bed in it. Just fwiw.

Nano_reeflover · #**118** 08/12/2006, 11:02 PM

Your not supposed to put a "heap" of sugar in the tank. Thats probably why everything died.

DaveBrader · #**119** 08/12/2006, 11:12 PM

a heep of sugar? and everything died? Exactly how many grams of sugar is in a heep?

boxfishpooalot · #**120** 08/12/2006, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by boxfishpooalot
I did an experiment with sugar. I scooped a ]glass of tank saltwater in a cup.Put a heap of sugar in it.

Nano_reeflover · #**121** 08/12/2006, 11:39 PM

Ok, but even then a heap sounds like too much. I've started dosing (about a week and a half) my 55 gallon with only 1/4 tsp. Its no secret that things would die in a cup with a heap of sugar added to it.

wds21921 · #**122** 08/13/2006, 08:34 AM

I'm still sitting on the fence on this one. Until the measurement and duration variables get worked out I'll rely on my water changes to export waste and excess nutrients.
I've not had anything thats ever died over a normal water change.

Reef_bones · #**123** 08/13/2006, 10:27 AM

look, why are some people trying so hard to disprove this. NOONE said you have to do it. It was stated in the original post 1/8th a tsp per 25g, not a heap. I don't understand all the negative outlook tword it. Like has been stated several times it is not a new tactic. It has been done successfully to lower nitrates. Just like Kalkwasser and evertyhing else you can dose in your tank if you over do it then you will have issues.

Reef_bones · #**124** 08/13/2006, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by boxfishpooalot
I did an experiment with sugar. I scooped a glass of tank saltwater in a cup.Put a heap of sugar in it. The next morning the water was thick with fog. The snail that was in there was dead, the mysids shrimps were also dead. I suspect from oxygen depletion.

The nitrate whent up rather than down. But, I need to see what would happen with a sand bed in it. Just fwiw.

Thats what happens in this hobby when you can't follow directions... THINGS DIE

Murph72 · #**125** 08/13/2006, 06:55 PM

Dave,
If you don't mind my asking, what kinds of tests do you run on your tank? Do you have a prefered brand of test kits? I'm looking to expand the tests that I do on my tank but worry about reliability of tests (as you mentioned in your nitrate example.)

Btw, we did the vodka thing for a few weeks and the result was that my favorite coral (a beautiful brain) had some die off. Not sure what the real problem was as we weren't dosing heavily and we never had a big cloudy bloom as others have, but it certainly made us stop dosing. I guess I'd really like to see the content of the tanks that are being dosed. Are they SPS, LPS, Softies, Fish only.....? It would make me feel safer if I knew someone with the same inhabitants had luck with the system of adding sugar. As for the vodka, the only place I'm going to add that now is to my OJ.