Power tool recommendations

[herb11kigoma]

for what it is worth, I like my ryobi table saw, it is a 10 inch table saw that is on a stand, this thing breaks down for easy storage, and is realitively portable, I know it is a cheepy but for my work it is acceptable, for woodworking it is probably the most used tool i own. When i purchased mine it was in your price range too around $200.
There is a lot of great info in this thread.


herb

[Siffy]

Originally posted by pescadero
i look at it a little differently. when i buy a tool, i like to buy a good, quality tool that i will keep forever so that i only have to buy the tool once. it just bugs me to buy a something that isn't exactly what i want, just to get me by, because later on i'll inevitably buy the tool that i really wanted in the first place. then i have two tools, one that i like and one that i don't like, and i've spent more money than if i just bought the right tool in the beginning.

here's an example: i'm putting in an upstairs tank with a downstairs sump. to do the plumbing, i need to drill two holes, one for the send line and one for the return line. the holes need to go into a tight space between a floor and a ceiling that is hard to access, and the only way to make the holes is with a right angle drill. because i'll be drilling through 2x12 and through an oak floor, i'm going to need a serious right angle drill. so i bought this one.

with the drill and the bit kit, its going to cost me over $450 (over $200 per hole) to make the two holes that I need for the water lines. my only other option would be to rent the tool, or to pay someone else to drill the holes for me. i've done that before, and looking back on the situation, i wish that i had just bought the tool in the first place.

dammit. nemo is eating my wallet again.

What about the option to buy an inexpensive right angle attachment? A 12v cordless would have cut those holes with a good sharp hole saw. Buying a $280 tool to be used twice is not what the OP is trying to accomplish. Buying a $140 miter saw now that will make 90% of the cuts he/she'd need it for rather than buying a $600 one on a limited budget I think is the idea.

But I completely understand buying tools just to be buying tools. I've got a brand new right angle drill myself. Still in its box never used. And we've had it for about 2 years or better now.

[scbadiver]

I LOVE to buy tools myself. Any excuse will do. Anyway though, with the budget the OP has I would reccomend the delta 12 inch with the dual laser guides. It's just a tad over budget but Lowes frequently as it on sale for less. I use mine a lot. I have a Ridgid table saw that a really am pleased with but I tend to use the miter more often on tank stuff. It's set up and easy and square. I also agree with the posters on buying a good quality tool, once. I'd rather wait and get a good one than buying a cheapie that wont do what I want anyway.

[pescadero]

Originally posted by Siffy
What about the option to buy an inexpensive right angle attachment? A 12v cordless would have cut those holes with a good sharp hole saw. ...
But I completely understand buying tools just to be buying tools. I've got a brand new right angle drill myself. Still in its box never used. And we've had it for about 2 years or better now.

well, to be honest, i can't see how spending $100 to solve the problem is better than spending $500 to solve the problem, and getting a really nice tool along the way. I know, the logic is twisted...

as a general rule, if I need a tool and it costs $300 or less, I'll just buy it rather than borrowing it or renting it. since this is the second time i've needed a 1/2 inch right angle drill, it was time to take the plunge. last time i got buy with a suboptimal solution (low powered 3/8 inch drill with a right angle attachment) and i don't want to go that route again.

OK, i admit it, Nemo is eating my wallet, but i'm not really trying to stop him.

[pescadero]

WRT the safety issues, I'll agree that a table saw can be very dangerous. the greatest risk in operating a table saw is caused by putting your hands too close to the blade when working with small stock. experienced woodworkers know better, and to avoid kickback they create special jigs, fences, carrier boards, and push sticks.

the truth is that any type of power saw is very dangerous, regardless of whether it be a table saw, a bandsaw, or a miter saw. i think that miter saws are particularly dangerous because they provide the illusion of being safer to use than they actually are. because its so easy to cut small pieces with them, people tend to do silly things that are inherently unsafe. things like holding a moderately sized or small piece with their hands (all miter saws have a no-hands zone that's about 10 inches on each side of the blade, and most everyone seems to ignore it). another silly thing to do is to raise the miter saw while the blade is still running. doing that is just begging for a kickback. when using your miter saw, don't be impatient -- always wait for the blade to stop before raising the blade and the saw will be much safer to use.

good luck and have fun!

[GTriever]

The only saws that're more dangerous IMO are the Radial Arm Saw and the Toe Kick Saw. That being said, the most dangerous thing is any workshop is still going to be YOU... so follow safety procedures at all times.

True, a miter saw will do just about anything the OP wants to do in this project, as several people have pointed out. However, I still recommend a table saw, if he's going to buy a new tool for the job. Not only will it accomplish this job, but it'll also do sheet goods, you can drop a router extension in it, and it'll even serve as a workbench if you need it to...

[littlefish72]

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...0LS&lpage=none
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...0FR&lpage=none
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...46X&lpage=none


Believe it or not I like the look of the first one the best but the second one looks sturdier.........and can someone please explain what is different about the first two and the last one....like what makes it $1,100 more

[Siffy]

It's a Dewalt. It's "Heavy Duty". It'll cut a wider dado. And last, the table is nearly 1900 sq in, where the others are 884 and 520 sq in. Thus it's 2-4x as large as the other 2. One thing I don't see on any of them is a place to add a router, which is a great option for any table saw.

[RONCGIZMO]

So then you think $30 it to much for a compound miter that cuts square?

Originally posted by pescadero
if you're on a budget, i think that your best bet is to buy quality tools one piece at a time. maybe if you know someone with tools then you can borrow them or better yet, invite an experienced tool-bearing friend over to help you with your project.

one thing that i would advise against is buying a bunch of cheap tools because you have a limited budget to work with. cheap tools are cheap tools, and you get what you pay for. quality tools are more expensive, but they are made well. they provide good, reproducible results and they'll last your lifetime. cheap tools have flimsy construction, poor precision, weak motors, and even if they don't fall apart, you may end up smashing them because they can't produce a straight cut when you really need it. don't skimp on buying good quality.

while there may be good deals at pawn shops, the tools always seem to be overpriced to me -- as if they're priced near retail and you have to barter to get the price down. insofar as much of it is probably stolen, i'd rather just buy it new and keep a clear conscience. but that's just me.

[Siffy]

Originally posted by RONCGIZMO
So then you think $30 it to much for a compound miter that cuts square?

Not at all. Just get a quality brand one, even if it's used.

[RONCGIZMO]

I bought a Delta, Not the best IMO but I no longer make a living with tools...If I use this saw 5 times a year it will be a lot...lol I do understand quality brands when it comes to tools, I own a Bosch jig saw I bought about 10 years ago, almost 200 back then but this thing kicks butt still...Delta as you know is made by or owned by I should say Porter cable but Delta is made by Black and decker (at least this one is) so it's more home owners quality then pro...My point for the OP is if you don't have the cash to blow on great tools buy something good...If you go to Home Depot etc. you can find a few saws for around 100~125 that will work great for your needs but not for a pro's needs and if you can buy that 100~125 saw for 50+- Go for it...

[RedEDGE2k1]

Originally posted by littlefish72
And do the big stores (Lowes, Home Depot, Harbor Freight) have factory reconditioned tools?

Harbor Freight sells absolute CRAP. I get so annoyed listening to friends talk about how I'm dumb for spending $100 for a DeWalt sander, when they "got the same thing for $23.99 at Harbor Freight." Those guys are the type that like to collect tools rather than ever use them.

Most important thing to remember when buying power tools -- you get what you pay for.

[RedEDGE2k1]

Originally posted by littlefish72
Do I even need a miter or table saw?

I built this 99% with a handheld rotary saw & straightedge. The other 1% was a miter saw for the crown molding.

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...5&pagenumber=1

[Siffy]

Ditto on Harbor Freight. I was looking through one of their catalogs yesterday and the only 2 things I considered out of there was a trickle battery charger and also said "that's a good price on sanding sponges". Same thing with Northern. You're better off sticking with places like Home Depot and Lowes for power tools and Sears (imo) for hand tools.

I've actually lost quite a bit of faith in Dewalt in the past year. I already said I wouldn't recommend their cutout tool, and should add I'll never buy a DeWalt drill bit again. I broke a 3/8" last summer drilling 1/4" steel, and it never should have happened. Straight hole and the bit bound soon as it made through the back side and the flutes wound it on in until it snapped in 2 places at the same time. The pilot tips sound like a good idea, but their R&D team needs to reevaluate those bits. I broke 2 Hitachi bits out of a driver set drilling pressure treated 2x6s for pilot holes just Monday. It was those bits' first use ever. The only reason I used them is because I didn't carry the 20 year old set I'd gotten another pilot bit from with us to my aunt's house. We were building a wheel chair ramp for her after she had foot surgery Friday. The 20 year old bit made me at least 80 pilots in the same wood at home before I was done with it and put it up without a scratch. Just making the point "they don't make them like they used to". It's why we have 4 circular saws in our garage and the first one I reach for is a ~25-30 year old skil that I got for free because the cord was dry rotted and needed replaced. It's nearly solid metal and doesn't weigh any more than a quality new plastic body one does. But this one I'd throw off a roof and use it again without worry. I guess I'm back to finding really old but new bits or Irwin and Klein.

RedEDGE2k1, thanks for the example of something we can build without a table saw. Your tank/stand is more a piece of art than furniture even. Simply gorgeous.

Since we've talked about brand recommendations, what driver bits do people like? I've yet to find a good, organized, varied set that I'm 100% happy with. My Craftsman set is "ok", my Hitachi set is "ok". I want to buy one that I say "this is going everywhere with me" and "I'd hate to lose this" about. And by varied, I mean Phillips, slotted, torx, Allen possibly, Robertson (square), square drive, and nut drivers (preferably SAE and metric). Anyone ever seen a set that is definitely drop forged and tough as hell? The one that looks like a set of impact sockets is the set I'm looking for if it exists. Even if it costs as much as a set of impact sockets.

[pescadero]

Originally posted by RONCGIZMO
So then you think $30 it to much for a compound miter that cuts square?

No, I don't think its too much. Actually, I think that it may not be enough, depending upon what you're going to do with it. It all depends if you're going to be using it for something like chopping 2x4, making picture frames, or something in between.

So far we've discussed things like the difference between 10-inch and 12-inch, compound vs. non-compound, and slider vs. non-slider. but nobody has mentioned blade quality. That's probably the most important consideration.

Out of the box, most miter saws are geared toward the contractor not the cabinet maker. As a result they come with economy blades instead of precision blades. Those are great for chopping 2x4 but aren't as good for precision cabinetry. Little defects in the cut of a 2x4 aren't meaningful to a contractor. But if you're going to do work that requires the absence of things like rip-cut scoring, crosscut scoring, crosscut tear-out, and ease of feed, then you'll need a precision blade.

So it all depends on what you want to do with the saw. If you want to chop 2x4 what you buy isn't critical. If you want to build cabinets, you might be able to do a good job with an inexpensive saw and a blade upgrade. To put prices in perspective, a premium quality cabinetry blade like a Forrest brand Woodworker II will set you back $110 just for the blade. In contrast, the kind of blades that you'll find on just about any contractor's table saw or miter saw will cost half that.

BTW, I got my Milwaukee Super-Hawg and plumber's bit kit from UPS today. Time to drill a floor!

[littlefish72]

Yeah I stopped by harbor freight and I agree a lot of their stuff looks cheaply made.........I did see some miter saws I liked but no table saws that looked good.........sad thing is I have a $100 gift card there......I think will pick my table saw from Lowes or Home Depot and use the gift card for minor stuff at HF.

[frags75]

Right tool for the job. I dont want to start an arguement but we are talking about room in the garage. IMO the table saw is unneccesary. You can do every thing with the circular saw to get it framed up. For the trim I would go with the compound mitre saw. And last time I checked you cannot cut crown molding with a table saw and be very effiecient and accurate.

[littlefish72]

well fortunately I am not looking to cut crown moldings but I might still pick up a miter saw with the gift card

[Donw]

If I could only have one saw in my shop hands down it would be a fes tools saw. Will rip cut 8ft panels easier than any table saw. Cross cuts are just as accurate. I'm seeing more and more production shops moving to them.

Don

[RONCGIZMO]

Originally posted by RedEDGE2k1
Harbor Freight sells absolute CRAP. I get so annoyed listening to friends talk about how I'm dumb for spending $100 for a DeWalt sander, when they "got the same thing for $23.99 at Harbor Freight." Those guys are the type that like to collect tools rather than ever use them.

Most important thing to remember when buying power tools -- you get what you pay for.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME! Harbor Freight is great! lol I thought I'd NEVER say that...

That is if you want to put together a tool kit for the car or buy the finish router for 20 bucks and add the V speed control for another 10~15 (makes a great dremel) it's also good for disposable tools, last week I needed to cut some PVC and bought a cutter at lowes @ 30 bucks that same day I stopped at Harbor Freight and bought 2 cutters of the same type for 6 and took back the $30 one I also bought a POS multi meter for $3 (it's not my Fluke but it will work fine for testing 110 and battery's etc) they also have some small stubby screw drivers that work fantastic if you pull out the bit and push a snap-on bit in it's place, I have one that I had for about 10 years and used it almost every day for 5 when I worked on cars.

[Ebmorri]

If money was no issue heres the table saw everyone should have.
http://www.sawstop.com/media/WMV/Hot_Dog_Demo.htm

http://www.sawstop.com I bit steep of a price at $3500 but once you see the videos you will agree 100% worth it. I can't afford one but thank God afriend has one I can use. We have tried to get him to do the hot dog demo but it's then about $150 to get it running agian, but thats cheep still if it works.

Erick

[RedEDGE2k1]

Originally posted by Ebmorri
A bit steep of a price at $3500 but once you see the videos you will agree 100% worth it.

I must disagree. I am by no means trying to start a worldwide argument here, but if being able to safely use a table saw requires a $3500 investment on a saw that can tell the difference between plywood and hands, then I personally don't believe such a person has any business operating power tools (for safety's sake).

Even if you have that table saw, there's plenty of other ways to hurt yourself in a woodworking shop. I don't have the research to back this up, but I'd be willing to bet 99% of shop accidents are caused by blatant disregard of safety precautions.

Placing your fingers in the vicinty of a table saw blade while cutting, ie. the hot dog video, is a great example.

[Siffy]

Then there's the saws you'll always remember using, and even remember the way it tasted. Cutting a chalk line with one of these requires a bit more concentration.

http://www.stihlusa.com/construction/TS800.html

I'm curious what would happen if you hit a nail or staple with that stopsaw. I'd assume it'd cost you $150 for it by a previous post. That company, even though it's making an incredible innovated product, is seriously ripping people off. There's no way it could cost $1500+ to simply check for conductive material touching the saw blade and rig up a quick (5ms) withdraw system.

The Fes tools saw is nice too, but it'd get aggravating buying overpriced non-standard sized blades that fit a $500+ straight edge.

[Donw]

Originally posted by Siffy

The Fes tools saw is nice too, but it'd get aggravating buying overpriced non-standard sized blades that fit a $500+ straight edge.

Overpriced. I got to know, compared to what? Saw blades you get what you pay for just like the tool its attatched to. There is much more to the festool saws than a skill saw and straight edge. Besides the normal cutting like a skill saw, the system replaces any panel saw and could and has replaced the table saws in many production cab shops. I build custom furniture and can honestly say the fes is the best investment Ive ever made in a woodworking tool.

Don

[webbstock]

With patience and a few homemade jigs, you can do a really nice job with a circular saw. Table saw are extremely nice and useful, but you should be prepared to buy a good one. A cheap table saw is far worse than a circular saw IMO.

For any precision cuts (like finish work) you need a miter saw. I tried to do some moulding work with a circular saw and a hand saw/jig and let me just say I now have a miter saw.

My last suggestion is regarding blades. I keep several good quality combo blades for different cutting options. Why? Blades do get old and dull leading to ragged cuts. So I have about 3 different blades that I use. The oldest blade I use for rough cuts or if I need to cut wood that may have sand an unknown nail etc in it so I don't ruin the better blades. I have my general use blade that I use for most everything else, and lastly I have my newest blade that is a finer tooth that I only use for finishing cuts.