OK! Enough chat...Starting a 1000g+ Reef

[JohnL]

This thread was automatically split due to performance issues. You can find the rest of the thread here: http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...6#post10538146

[jnarowe]

Also part of this sytem design was a remote deep sand bed (RDSB)/refugium mounted above the tank so that pods could overflow into the display and feed the tank, while the sand acted as filtration media.

And I want to be very specific here, I fully believe that a well maintained RDSB has great value in processing nutrients in a mixed reef system. I am a true believer, but reality has set in.

It's not easy to do. I had planned to swap out about 1/3 of the sand every 6 months so that there would always be fresh sand for phosphate etc. to bind to. And the issue again is a mixture of difficulty and laziness. Because that tank is mounted up high, it is difficult to work in, and because I let it go longer and longer, I increased the risk of releasing poisoness compounds by stirring it up.

Sherman and I debated for more than a week what my approach should be, whether to remove and replace the sand, lightening the load on the system and giving it more nutrient sink, or to just completely remove the sand entirely and there were strong arguements on both sides.

We were still debating the issue while pulling the sand out in fact, but I ultimately decided that I would rather gain control of the nurtient issue and not have the risk of the sandbed, nor the work maintaining it, and so my fuge is now BB.

Also a note about the fuge: It is way too small to have any impact on nutrient export in a system of this size. It really is just a point of interest to me, as well as a haven for any battered fish, snails, and mollies I use for genrating live food for the display.

All of this change comes at the back-end of a heat wave here, where my system got above 82F on consecutive days and I had a die off of Mexican Turbos. With about 40+ snails dying in the system, the putrid leftovers caused the tank to swing out-of-whack, and a domino effect took place. The brown algae started to bloom, and probably another 5000+ of the snails I breed died as well. So while it seems gloomy to look at the tank, I do have a plan and will continue to execute it over the next couple of weeks.

Hopefully the corals that are suffering will recover, but I can't expectthat until I have the display completely vacuumed out, have increased the frequency of filter media swaps, and changed out a lot of water.

When it rains it pours!

[jnarowe]

hehehehe....

[token]

GRATS!!!

[melev]

Can you post your current water parameters, especially due to the massive snail die-off? Odds are Ammonia and Phosphate will spike.

For the remote DSB, I would take it offline and remove and wash all the sand out completely, then set it up anew.

Glad to hear you're getting the RO/DI situation worked out.

So your reef and your refugium are going to stay sandless, eh? I'm about to add more sand to my tank to replace what has evaporated away.

[jnarowe]

thanks, but I don't know why people are so into "splits"... I am going to have to have a beer and think on that.

[token]

Originally posted by jnarowe
...replace the rocks but on top of 1 - 2" slices of PVC pipe to get them off the bottom.

I have used this technique for a long time but I don't use pieces of PVC, rather couplings. Couplings for specific pipe diameters are consistent and have the added benefits of square cuts and smooth/rounded, uniform ends. For larger rocks, I use 3" (about 4" in length)couplings but if you are removing your sand, smaller might serve you better. Were I not filling these with sand, I would definitely fill them with something so that they cannot fill with detritus.

I dismantled my 100g in preparation for my move. After almost 5 years, my 3"+ sandbed was surprisingly clean and full of life. I have not been a fan of sand-sifting stars but I do love sea cucumbers and snails. I have shied away from Turbo's, opting for nerite, nasarrius (sp?) and cerith. The only regret I have about sand in the display is that I don't like the visual at the glass.

I am not sure how you built your RDSB; in fact, I am not sure what most mean by that phrase. I have used what I call a RDSB since reading about Jaubert's work years ago because it made a bunch of sense to me. I think that the big difference to me is that I always construct my DSB over a plenum (except in the display). My sumps are a bit different from most in that I don't compartmentalize the sump itself but, instead, rely on containers on top of the substrate which are in turn above the sand itself. This requires a deeper volume of water, to a degree, but my parameters are much more stable and I have yet to have a nitrate problem since moving into this condo and setting up these two tanks. After taking apart the 100g and its sump, I realized that this works for me and I will continue the practice as I move and continue the process of setting up that more elaborate system.

I wish you the best! It is a great thing to see a well-considered plan for your tank. I find it propitious that you posted it, creating the split!

[jnarowe]

Originally posted by melev
Can you post your current water parameters, especially due to the massive snail die-off? Odds are Ammonia and Phosphate will spike.

For the remote DSB, I would take it offline and remove and wash all the sand out completely, then set it up anew.

Glad to hear you're getting the RO/DI situation worked out.

So your reef and your refugium are going to stay sandless, eh? I'm about to add more sand to my tank to replace what has evaporated away.

And believe me, I am a true fan of well maintained sand filtration. I just can't do it. In your case, you have more time and better access to your tanks, so I think it is less of a chore.

Current water parameters are:

Ammonia: 0 ppm
Phosphate: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 0 ppm
Ca: 425 ppm
Alk: 9.8 dKh
sal: 1.025

BUT...when Sherman and I stirred a sample of the sand from the RDSB, it measured PO4 totally off the Merck chart. In other words, while the PO4 was not measurable in the water column, there was ahuge amount bound up in the sand bed, and hence my decision to leave sand alone for a while. If I am too lazy to maintain it, then it will just happen again.

And I haven't gotten the RIO/DI thing straightened out yet as I am waiting to hear back about the warranty on the booster pump.

[jnarowe]

As it turned out, with the exception of a tremendous amount of waste in the sandbed, it was in good shape in terms of not being all clumped up into big pieces etc. and there was no foul odor at all while removing. That's a big plus IMO.

And when I pulled all the rubble out of my sumps a few weeks ago, I discovered a huge amount of detritus, and that is what has been driving my interest in changing methodology a bit. No when I do a water change, I shop-vac out the sumps.

[mrcrab]

Originally posted by jnarowe
thanks, but I don't know why people are so into "splits"... I am going to have to have a beer and think on that.

You're just a killjoy!

Hope the health issues are getting resolved and you get the tank back to running smoothly again.

Oh and the beer thing...you need an excuse?

[jnarowe]

I really do need an excuse...man this strong beer is making me fat!

Some things I forgot to mention:

When I did the latest water change, I used 1 bag of OceanPure and 1 bag of OceanPure Pro and that tested at 0 PO4, 420 Ca, and 8.9 dKh at a salinity of 1.0265. Very nice numbers that don't have to be adjusted IMO.

My CBB is cruising the tank with the tangs like he is just one of the good ol' boys. Very interesting that they have easily accepted the CBB, but it may come from the way I introduce fish to the system. Also, the CBB has radically reduced the aiptasia in the tank, so that is good new visually anyway.

I am wondering if anyone has any suggestions on how to remove xenia. Can they just be torn off, or will new ones grow from the fragments left behind?

Also, I have a confirmed GBTA split, although the baby is quite small at only about 6" diameter.

[dhnguyen]

I've always wanted to learn martial arts of some sort...just never had the time...

Not to sound stupid, but what is different between regular karate, aikido, kung fu, etc...

Kung Fu is a Chinese martial art. Lots of hand and leg movements as well as weapons. The movements tend to be much more fluid and graceful almost dance like.

Karate is an Okinawan/Ryukyuan martial art influenced by Kung Fu. Karate means "Chinese Hand" in the ancient Ryukyuan language. This martial art have movements that tend to be much more rigid and agressive with greater concentration on strength. The body is conditioned in such a way to be able to withstand blows and deliver devastating attacks. Not uncommon to see followers of this art chopping rocks/concrete wiuth their bare hands, jabbing wooden blocks with the tips of their fingers, or beating themselves to hardened their own bodies.

Aikido is a Japanese martial art meaning "way of the harmonious spirit". This is a purely defensive art in which an opponent's attacking energy is used against him. The attack is diverted through the use of balance and momentum to throw off the attacker.

There is also Tae Kwon Do a Korean martial art similar to Karate but more emphasis on the legs and kicks.

[dhnguyen]

Originally posted by jnarowe
...I am wondering if anyone has any suggestions on how to remove xenia. Can they just be torn off, or will new ones grow from the fragments left behind?
...

New ones will indeed grow from the fragmnents left behind. But no worries J. a squirt of kalk paste will take care of them.

[thirschmann]

for some reason I have missed your thread for the last few days, sounds like your working on cleaning up some issues but at least none of that sand leaked any toxic crap back into your tank. Sounds like you got lucky with the ammonia and nitrate spikes as well, lucky bullet to dodge. Are you going to remove all sand from you system and rely on LR only?

Xenia are a pain in the butt in my opinion. Trying to tear them off isn't only annoying, because they get so damn slimy, but also fruitless. In my tank I finally tried injecting them with high salinity saltwater, tearing them off with tweezers, and then I put a nice big rock on the spot they used to be. After about 2 months they started to grow up around the big rock. Haven't tried kalk paste.

Good luck.

[jnarowe]

Hey Don, thanks for checking in. I forgot about answering that post so I appreciate that! You didn't mention the sordid history behind why it's called "Chinese Hand" Oh well, too much to go into in a reef thread anyway.

Thanks for the tips on the xenia guys. I actually have some that is melting down in the tank and want to get that out. The biggest issue is that is is mostly lower in the tank at the bottom, so getting kalk paste to it is tough. On a side note, I have seen Sherman's sailfin taking bites out of it!

And Tom, I am glad I finally made a move on the sand. What I did was take the refugium offline anyways, so had there been something foul in it, it would never have made it into the main system. We turned off the fuge's flow, siphoned out the water, and then pulled the rock and sand out. The shop-vac finished it off. Then we put the bigger pieces of rock with macro back in.

BTW, we found an interesting shrimp in there which must have come in with the "peppermints" I have bought. It is larger than the average peppermint, orange in color, has small claws, but with spikey hair on them. It's in the display overflow for now, until I can figure out what to do with it. I have all along suspected that when I purchased a large quantity of peppermints, that I actually got some kind of look-alike shrimps, because they never touched the aiptasia.

Right now I am leaning heavily to zero sand in the system and planting a colorful wall-to-wall zoanthid carpet on the tank bottom.

[cbui2]

you should have fun from now until 2011.5 to fill the bottom with carpets and zoos

[jnarowe]

No doubt Bart. Sherman is telling me that I will have to get inside the tank in order to deal with the aquascaping...I am a little concerned about the maroon going pirahna on me or having my very playful foxface accidentally poison me. I have an old skin I used to use when I scuba dived, but man, I am not the same size anymore!

In case anyone is interested, Sherman said he would have nightmares about my tank if he were me. He is fairly intimate with my system now, having been there for me to do all sorts of reef related chores and drinking.

So last night, I had my first reef nightmare. It's amazing what the subconcious mind can do with such an inocuous suggestion.

The dream is as follows, as best as I can remember it: My son and I were doing some tank maintainance and there were a variety of tanks in the room. It was not my current setup BTW. I had instructed him to do some chore which meant pulling some water out of what looked to be about a 200g long FOWLR with DSB. (It's a nightmare dammit!) At some point I realized that he had allowed all of the water to drain out of that tank, and all the fish were laying in the sand flopping.

I freaked out and started trying to grab the fish out and toss them in another nearby tank. One wrasse had buried itself in the sand, the foxface had to be handled with paper towels, and I was in a complete panic.

When I fnally was convinced that I had gotten all the fish out, I turned my attention to their condition in the nearby tank...but they weren't swimming. They were all on the botom with little movement at all. I tried waving my hand by them to get them more flow and try to jump start them. Then I thought about holding them in front of a powerhead to get them more flow over their gills, and when I lifted up the canopy, I noticed the CBB was holding on to the lip, keeping itself out of the water. I knocked it back into the water and it just fell to the bottom...and then I realized, it was a fresh water tank.

How's that for a nightmare? Thanks Sherman for planting the seed!

[dhnguyen]

Dude you need to lay off all that potent brew you've been downing.

[pcostanzo]

Your Maroon will go piranha on you too? I accidentally dropped a rock near this guys carpet last year. Now every time i stick my hand in the tank he unleashes an all out assault on me.

[jnarowe]

No kidding Don!

Hey Paul, is that a maroon clown? Doesn't look anything like mine:

[jnarowe]

And since I am screwing around on RC instead of working how about a couple new pics?

4 Days of Nog in a 6g bucket. The shot is distorted so just to make the numbers correct, it is about 4.5g in the bucket, and I lifted it without killing my back! Yay!



And a shot of the foam off an Octo modded by Sherman:



I have to clean the neck on the Octo just about every day. I guess I should be posting these shots in some skimmer geek threadS, but maybe they can hear me if I shout:

[profanity]

[mrcrab]

Originally posted by jnarowe
No kidding Don!

Hey Paul, is that a maroon clown? Doesn't look anything like mine:

Tomato clown I believe.

[pcostanzo]

No, Mines a Tomato.

[jnarowe]

you guys know I have a brain injury right? I guess I misunderstood Paul's original post regarding his clown!

[mrcrab]

Originally posted by jnarowe
you guys know I have a brain injury right? I guess I misunderstood Paul's original post regarding his clown!

excuses, excuses. How could we forget, even if we wanted to?