Euroreef RS180....need assistance

jdjeff58 · #1 05/27/2007, 01:05 PM

I just started up a new tank 120gal. I have an RS180 that I have in my sump. I wanted to start the skimmer and run things for a while because I just added sand, rock, water and I'm completely full and running. I have the skimmer mounted on a shelf so it's at the recommended 7" of water depth.

I started the skimmer with both adjustments in the full open position. Then I found out that I had to make an adj on my sump level because the skimmer (after I turned it on) took about 1 inch of level from my sump. So I did that.

As I began to close off the stand pipe to raise the level in the skimmer, the sump level starts to drop some more. If I open it all the way up again, the level goes back up to where I put it in the beginning. This makes sense to me but it is creating a concern with an automatic liquid level control.

I have several q's regarding the skimmer....or even the use of a skimmer on a new tank. I am also wondering a few things about the skimmer.

1. First, will running a skimmer before the cycle prevent a cycle...in other words filter out all the dead stuff.

2. I need to run the skimmer to set my liquid level control....it seems. The range on my liquid level control is only a one inch change of level. What I'm noticing is that if I cut the air back to bring the skimmer level up...it won't stay there. It will continue to rise over a period of hours...which changes my sump level. And makes me wonder how long until the skimmer overflows and my return pump runs dry. I haven't seen any of the gunk yet either. Is this inability to hold an adjustment because it is new?

3. Should I contiue to run my skimmer with the air wide open until it's broken in? That's the only adjustment that the water level in the skimmer remains constant.

4. I'm lost...the instructions talk to me like I already know what I'm doing. This is the first time I've ever touched a skimmer. It seems like I'm in over my head. Will somebody help before next tuesday?

McCrary · #2 05/27/2007, 01:26 PM

I am confused, how is your sump level changing? It should be constant no matter what you are doing with the skimmer. What is this liquid level control and how does it work? If you could explain this more I will try to help with the problem.

As for the skimmer, keep the air open and the pump running. There are oils in the pump that will prevent the skimmer from functioning for a few days. I wouldn't worry too much about having it on while the tank is cycling, it may remove some of the organics that create ammonia, but it shouldn't have too much of an impact.

sjm817 · #3 05/27/2007, 02:01 PM

There should be at a bare minimum, a baffle separating the drain/skimmer section and the return section of the sump. This insures a constant water level in the skimmer compartment.

EuroReef Tec1 · #4 05/27/2007, 04:36 PM

Yes, Turbo and sjm are right. With a baffel the water should only drop for a split second if at all when you close the valve. This is because the skimmer is pulling a little more water into its body. But it really doesnt sound like you have baffles in your sump.
Make adjustments slowley and in small increments. You may not see a whole lot of skimmate because of the oils, not only on the skimmer, but in the whole of your system. By the time that thing is done cycling you will have it all dialed in. Its a little differant from system to system because not one is the same as the next. Its all about trial and error here, but I wouldnt get too upset because your tank is cycling, and all your new equipment is getting broken in. So you have some time.

jdjeff58 · #5 05/27/2007, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TurboSnail8898
I am confused, how is your sump level changing? It should be constant no matter what you are doing with the skimmer. What is this liquid level control and how does it work? If you could explain this more I will try to help with the problem.

As for the skimmer, keep the air open and the pump running. There are oils in the pump that will prevent the skimmer from functioning for a few days. I wouldn't worry too much about having it on while the tank is cycling, it may remove some of the organics that create ammonia, but it shouldn't have too much of an impact.

I am not sure how these pics will appear. But my sump level is being monitored in the right chamber. It is called a liquid level control but it is just the same priciple as a auto topoff device. It has a level sensor tube that merely measures the pressure inside the tube. When the level is high enough, it trips a solenoid valve. The only difference is that it takes water from my spectrapure rodi unit....not a jug with a metering pump. The float you see in there is a back up float...if the water level goes way up as a result of the level switch malfunctioning, it will cut off the supply....hopefully.

Now...when I adjust the tube (the twist adj. and not the small air line on the pump), more water enters the skimmer and the level in the right hand chamber of my sump drops dramatically. I watched it for a few minutes and it never recovered. If I turn it back to all the way open, the level in the sump (right hand chamber) goes back up. This dramatic change in level has a definite effect on my level sensor. It could cause fresh rodi water to be added when there is no evaporation.....decreasing my salinity.

Right now....everything is wide open. The skimmer level has come up pretty high....higer than the recommended (see pic). I'm not sure what to do, other than shut the stupid thing off.

McCrary · #6 05/27/2007, 04:45 PM

Cool, I get it now. The skimmer is letting more water in based on the tube, so it is going to take water out of the right portion of your sump. Once the water level of the skimmer is set it should remain there, so it shouldn't mess with your sumps water level in the future. Once the skimmer water level is set you should only have to play with the air intake to find the correct air/water ratio to produce good skimmate. So when you get the water level set just add salt water as needed, if you find the salinity a little low.

EuroReef Tec1 · #7 05/27/2007, 04:45 PM

1: turn off your level controller untill you have everything dialed in. Then set the level accordingly.

2: The pH in RO/DI water is a low to top off with directly in my opinion. I would top off from a kalk stirrer to bring the ph up a bit. It will just keep it more stable.

3: You may get better results if you put the skimmer in the middle and put the fuge on the left. Feed it with a small maxi-jet 900 and let it over flow back into the middle chamber. Its an idea.

EuroReef Tec1 · #8 05/27/2007, 04:48 PM

Thanks turbo. I think you can type faster than I can LOL. But yes he is right.
Nice sump by the way. Your fuge looks really brite.

jdjeff58 · #9 05/27/2007, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TurboSnail8898
Once the skimmer water level is set you should only have to play with the air intake to find the correct air/water ratio to produce good skimmate.

According to the 'instructions' (AHEM!), it says to adjust the vertical tube by twisting it clockwise to the recommended level. Is this the air intake that you are talking about? Or is it the little silicone tubing adj. It seems like both have the exact same effect. But right now, this skimmer is out of control. With both of these adjustments wide open, it is just about ready to overflow.

Would someone mind giving me a phone number to call? This is one of those things where there is stuff getting lost in the translation of text. And I'm about ready to have an overflow situation.

Reef Sponger · #10 05/27/2007, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jdjeff58
I just started up a new tank 120gal. I have an RS180 that I have in my sump. I wanted to start the skimmer and run things for a while because I just added sand, rock, water and I'm completely full and running. I have the skimmer mounted on a shelf so it's at the recommended 7" of water depth.

I started the skimmer with both adjustments in the full open position. Then I found out that I had to make an adj on my sump level because the skimmer (after I turned it on) took about 1 inch of level from my sump. So I did that.

As I began to close off the stand pipe to raise the level in the skimmer, the sump level starts to drop some more. If I open it all the way up again, the level goes back up to where I put it in the beginning. This makes sense to me but it is creating a concern with an automatic liquid level control.

I have several q's regarding the skimmer....or even the use of a skimmer on a new tank. I am also wondering a few things about the skimmer.

1. First, will running a skimmer before the cycle prevent a cycle...in other words filter out all the dead stuff.
The more live rocks that you use within your system, the shorter the cycle will be. You need to run the skimmer during the whole cycling process to remove the die off from the live rocks and the waste they produce. Most likely the skimmate will be light, but that's OK as well a organics are being removed.

2. I need to run the skimmer to set my liquid level control....it seems. The range on my liquid level control is only a one inch change of level. What I'm noticing is that if I cut the air back to bring the skimmer level up...it won't stay there. It will continue to rise over a period of hours...which changes my sump level. And makes me wonder how long until the skimmer overflows and my return pump runs dry. I haven't seen any of the gunk yet either. Is this inability to hold an adjustment because it is new?
If I am understanding this correctly, no matter where you set a brand new skimmer, as it breaks in, the foaming level will rise and base on the way your system is setup, you'll need to adjust. My suggestion with working with ER skimmers for a number of years, is to set the air valve first. Start off running it wide open and then close it down slowly until you get much finer bubbles (usually near 1 o'clock position). Leave the air valve at that position and then adjust your bubble breaking level within the skimmer a little above the bottom of the collection cup. Then adjust the waterlevel to even everything out. The foaming level will rise over the next few days, so you may need to readjust the water level to compensate if it is not automatic.

3. Should I contiue to run my skimmer with the air wide open until it's broken in? That's the only adjustment that the water level in the skimmer remains constant.
See above, I would start is near the 1 o'clock position

4. I'm lost...the instructions talk to me like I already know what I'm doing. This is the first time I've ever touched a skimmer. It seems like I'm in over my head. Will somebody help before next tuesday?
As long as you start off your skimmer with the bubble breaking level just above the bottom of the collection cup, it shouldn't overflow as there's quite a distant to climb up before overflowing. After a few days you will need to readjust, but leave it alone for a few days or you'll be adjusting back and forth. Hopefully, this wasn't too confusing and it clarifies things a bit. Congrats on a excellent skimmer choice.

If you're really still struggling, contact the person who helped you setup everything or your dealer that your purchased your skimmer from as they should be able to help you. Even though I know that many RC members are quite knowledgeable, I've seen a lot of advice that was opposite of what new hobbyist need to do, so more frustrations instead of less. More true with brand new skimmer liness instead of older established lines like ER.

jdjeff58 · #11 05/27/2007, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Reef Sponger
it shouldn't overflow as there's quite a distant to climb up before overflowing.

Thanks for the response.....but the thing is now...I can't get the level to go down anymore. It has risen to the top of the collection cup with both adj as far open as they will go. This skimmer has been running about 24 hours now. I'm getting ready to shut the thing down.

McCrary · #12 05/27/2007, 06:11 PM

If the vertical PVC tube is fully open then the water level in the skimmer should be low, as you restrict the water exiting the skimmer the water level in the skimmer will rise. The amount of air that is let into the skimmer will also have an impact on the water level. If you restrict the air going into the skimmer it will cause the water level of the skimmer to rise. So keep the air unrestricted and the water unrestricted from exiting and the water level in the skimmer should be low.

klam114 · #13 05/27/2007, 06:20 PM

The exhaust must be restricted? Waterlevel within the skimmer shouldn't be that high. Do you have the new wedgepipe exhaust adjustment? Is the end of the exhaust submerged or just above the waterline? Would not suggest that you submerge the end of the exhaust if it is.

McCrary · #14 05/27/2007, 06:24 PM

If the exhaust is restricted the water level in the skimmer will rise, so the exhaust should be unrestricted if he is having problems lowering the water level.

jdjeff58 · #15 05/27/2007, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TurboSnail8898
If the exhaust is restricted the water level in the skimmer will rise, so the exhaust should be unrestricted if he is having problems lowering the water level.

I have the diagram (instructions) in front of me. There is nothing on here called an exhaust. There is a down tube that they call a 'water return pipe' (#4). At the recommended sump water level for the skimmer, this thing is under water. There's alot of terms being used here that have me completely lost.

There are TWO adjustments for the air intake. One is a small tube attached to the pump (#14). The other is the what they call the 'foam adj. pipe' (#5). They both have the same effect. Now the top of that pipe (#5) is really close to the bottom of my tank....about a half inch of clearance. It got up that high because they were telling me to build a shelf to raise the skimmer so it is only submerged 6-8" (the top of #9). It looks to me like there is enough clearance. But maybe not.

This skimmer level was doing ok for the first 12 hours. It began to act up after that. I personally don't see what is getting restricted.

#5 is misrepresented in the diagram. It is actually the same height as the top of the skimmer (the lid). It is also what is 1/2 inch from the bottom of my tank.

I'm sorry these pics are so small...they only give me 50k to upload photos.

klam114 · #16 05/27/2007, 07:13 PM

#3 is the exhaust and #4 is the end of the return pipe for the exhaust. #4 should not be submerged if #5 is a wedgepipe design for adjusting the exhaust. #5 should be adjusted where the waterlevel inside the skimmer is at the lowest point, this is fully open.

jdjeff58 · #17 05/27/2007, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by klam114
#3 is the exhaust and #4 is the end of the return pipe for the exhaust. #4 should not be submerged if #5 is a wedgepipe design for adjusting the exhaust. #5 should be adjusted where the waterlevel inside the skimmer is at the lowest point, this is fully open.

I would have to say that this is a wedge pipe design. If I pull out #5, the inserted piece is cut at angle. This IS one of the adj. as they tell me to rotate that piece to control the water level.

Now #4 can be taken off so that the elbow is about 1/4 inch above the water. Once again the diagram does not show this clearly. #3 is actually located closer to the water.

If I remove #4, all that sticks out is the elbow. After it makes the 90 deg turn downward, it is just above the surface of the water by about 1/4".

It looks like you are saying I need to pull off the pipe #4 and leave it out. Yes? Is 1/4" enough clearance from the water?

klam114 · #18 05/27/2007, 07:31 PM

Yes, adjust #5 so that it is wide open, the cut edge facing the output T openning should yield the lowest internal waterlevel. Next, remove the return pipe only and leave the elbow, just like you mentioned. This will releave any backpressure and lower the waterlevel within the skimmer as well. Then I would agree with Reef Sponger on her recommendation that you adjust the air valve to approximately 1 o'clock position. It is best to follow the directions that she typed by starting at 12 noon wide open position and close down slowly until you get slightly smaller bubbles. Leave the exhaust fully open and unrestricted and see if that helps. This is what I do with my H&S skimmer, which has a similar design... ER copied it.

jdjeff58 · #19 05/27/2007, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by klam114
Yes, adjust #5 so that it is wide open, the cut edge facing the output T openning should yield the lowest internal waterlevel. Next, remove the return pipe only and leave the elbow, just like you mentioned. This will releave any backpressure and lower the waterlevel within the skimmer as well. Then I would agree with Reef Sponger on her recommendation that you adjust the air valve to approximately 1 o'clock position. It is best to follow the directions that she typed by starting at 12 noon wide open position and close down slowly until you get slightly smaller bubbles. Leave the exhaust fully open and unrestricted and see if that helps. This is what I do with my H&S skimmer, which has a similar design... ER copied it.

That definitely brought the water level back down to a more manageable level. It looks my clock will be a little different as things come up to where they are supposed to be at 3 o'clock. Once it is up there, then it looks like the smaller adj tube #14 knocks down the size of the bubbles to a 'creamy' consistency.

The funny thing is, there is no mention at all about pipe being out of the water in the instructions. I hope Euroreef didn't copy the instructions from H&S....because these instructions are basically useless. I'm sorry to flame, but that about the size of it...especially for this kind of money.

In any case...thanks to all who posted. I think it's getting clearer.

Reef Sponger · #20 05/27/2007, 08:03 PM

H&S skimmers doesn't come with much instructions either. These photos from the H&S/Fins Reef forum might be helpful on the exhaust.

Quote:

Originally posted by UCanDoIt
TS - I know that for a lot of other skimmers out there, it may not make a difference, but for H&S with the wedgpipe design, it does. I remembered when Ed first received his first H&S skimmer and was testing. They had the exhaust terminated underwater and never got anything serious in terms of skimmate. They thought it was just too much fussing around to get the type of skimmate that they were getting with the Deltecs that had already tested earlier. Wasn't until he did research here on RC that he discovered that H&S skimmers' exhaust cannot terminate underwater or the backpressure will affect its performance. I noticed when my A200 exhaust was underwater when we first setup, the waterlevel and foam within the skimmer body was not consistent... it would drop and rise about 1"-2". We thought is was surging coming from the input, but since our initial setup was pump fed, the input waterflow was consistent. Then we discovered the backpressure and slight surging was coming from terminating the exhaust underwater. I would suggest you redo your plumbing, it would certainly help. Maynot be as great performing as Chris's A200 because he feeds his tank a LOT, heavy bioload. He got some serious stuff skimming out of his tank.

Quote:

Originally posted by FinsReef
OK, Sorry for the delay, but here is a few pictures, LMK if you need some more examples
1. This way is wrong, and will cause surging and backpressure

2. These ways are good.

3. This will work, but make sure the length to the sump is not over 2 foot.

Also make sure that you down not neck down the skimmer output size. If it comes with a 1 1/4" ouput, use 1 1/4" or larger pvc to run the return.

It is better to use 45 degree elbows than 90 elbows.

HTH

Uncle Boo · #21 05/27/2007, 10:15 PM

I have the RS 135 on my 120 with the same instructions and picture. My exhaust is also exiting underwater per the instructions. I'm going to try this advice and see how it works. Thanks.

sjm817 · #22 05/27/2007, 10:25 PM

The whole water exit thing is not that complex. The more restriction you put on the output, the more backpresure inside the skimmer body, and the higher the water level will be. If it is wide open and the level in the skimmer is too high, you have a couple of options;

1)
further reduce the outlet backpressure.
a) remove the wedge all together, but now you have no adjustment
b) raise the simmer up on a platform to reduce the water level.
c) dont submerge the water outlet (#4). Have it just at the waters surface.

2)
The air adjustment (#14) also has an effect of water level. As you close the valve, you reduce the amount of air the pump pulls in. You also increase the amount of water the pump pumps into the skimmer. The increased water from the pump can also cause a higher than desired water level in the body. Often opening the valve all the way, or removing it can reduce the water level. This side effect is a lot of air which may cause excessive foaming depending on water conditions.

jdjeff58 · #23 05/27/2007, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Uncle Boo
I have the RS 135 on my 120 with the same instructions and picture. My exhaust is also exiting underwater per the instructions. I'm going to try this advice and see how it works. Thanks.

With the elbow, I was just clearing the surface of the water by 1/4"...since the shelf I put in there gets the skimmer up to 7" of level. I just cut 1/4" off my elbow to be sure it clears the water by at least 1/2".

I got the back pressure taken care of, but I'm still having a heck of a time getting the bubbles to stay at the same level. If I had known this, I would of bought something else. This is not a skimmer for beginners.

sjm817 · #24 05/27/2007, 10:50 PM

You'll get it. Part of it is learning curve, part of it is new tank. New LR, sand, acrylic sump, plumbing parts, skimmer all take awhile to settle in. Skimmers are very sensitive to changes in water chemistry. You have a lot of instability right now that will get better. If it doesn't cause excessive foaming, I would leave the air valve wide open or removed for now.

markandkristen · #25 05/28/2007, 12:01 AM

i have a 6-3 that i took the valve off ( air inlet hose.) i thought they worked better with the valve off. should i run it with it on. let say 1 to 3 oclock.