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  #451  
Old 01/08/2008, 11:38 PM
RedEDGE2k1 RedEDGE2k1 is offline
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Several people have asked for my SketchUp model since I started this thread, so instead of emailing it to individuals one at a time, I decided to open an account with a free file hosting site and save the SketchUp model there. Now anyone can download it, play with it, change it, whatever you want. I do ask one thing though -- if you build your own cabinet based on my plan, send me some build/final pictures! It'd be neat to see your work.

Here's the link to the download (9.07mb)
http://www.mediafire.com/?7tkx2xf9igl

Take care folks-
Dustin
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90g reef/29g sump, DIY cabinet, 2x250w MH, 2x54w T5 actinics, ER RS135 skimmer, VorTech pump, 18w UV sterilizer
  #452  
Old 01/09/2008, 12:31 AM
JJ4417 JJ4417 is offline
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What...I can't send you my specs and have you design it for me? Bummer...

Seriously, you said people usually overbuild their stands, so I'll ask what really seems like a silly question. Looking at a 180 build...what am I looking at for the frame? Do I need a frame or would the plywood work?
  #453  
Old 01/09/2008, 08:52 AM
RedEDGE2k1 RedEDGE2k1 is offline
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A plywood stand is enough for any standard size tank -- no 2x members needed -- if you know what you're doing and use proper plywood joinery techniques.
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90g reef/29g sump, DIY cabinet, 2x250w MH, 2x54w T5 actinics, ER RS135 skimmer, VorTech pump, 18w UV sterilizer
  #454  
Old 01/09/2008, 09:15 AM
RumLad RumLad is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by RedEDGE2k1
A plywood stand is enough for any standard size tank -- no 2x members needed -- if you know what you're doing and use proper plywood joinery techniques.
This being the case, why then did you elect to use 2x members in your stand?

I think the phrase "if you know what you are doing" does not apply to 99% of the members that frequent this site for advice, as far as structural design and integrity goes. Most, if not all DIY'ers, would be hard pressed to design a stand for over 1600 pounds (180 gal x 9 lbs/gal, in the above post) out of plywood alone.
I know I would struggle to be truly comfortable filling that tank, on that stand, in my living room!
Most of us would likely feel the need to use some form of structural members at the corners, front and back edges in order to sleep at night.

My .02, once again.
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  #455  
Old 01/09/2008, 09:53 AM
RedEDGE2k1 RedEDGE2k1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by RumLad
This being the case, why then did you elect to use 2x members in your stand?
Ah...you're back. Go back and read the build -- I opted to use a 2x6 header to span the front of the tank, rather than implement a plywood center brace (blocking access to the sump and equipment below). Loading on the 2x6 header is transferred to the floor with two 2x4s at each end.

There's really only one thing to remember when thinking about building a DIY stand for a large (200+ gallon) aquarium -- either you know what you're doing, or you don't. If you don't, then you pay someone to do it or you buy an engineered one at the fish store.

Someone with no structural knowledge could spend $1200 building a 55g stand out of 8"x8" pressure treated pine and all the 2x4 braces they want, but if it's all put together with load-bearing screw connections and a Glu-Stic, it's going to fail.

Structures is 1% material strength and 99% engineered strength.
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90g reef/29g sump, DIY cabinet, 2x250w MH, 2x54w T5 actinics, ER RS135 skimmer, VorTech pump, 18w UV sterilizer
  #456  
Old 01/09/2008, 09:55 AM
cannarella cannarella is offline
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There you go again pushing buttons. Try offering up something constructive or not at all. The reason the DIY forum exists is for people to learn and try, not to bash.
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If my phaser discharges off by as little as .06 terra watts, it would cause a cascading exothermal inversion.
  #457  
Old 01/09/2008, 10:27 AM
RumLad RumLad is offline
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How is that bashing?

Was I not constructive when I informed him how to make a straight cutout with a saw and a router on page 3, or offered some hinge designs, also on page 3?

I simply asked why he chose the method he did for his stand, when he just posted that it was not necessary if you know what you are doing. FWIW, In his case, I think the tank could be safely built with the front edge resting solely on the plywood, as the back edge is currently doing. But he chose to go with some additional support structure. Was this by 'engineering design, or his own gut feeling that this would be better?

That's how people learn too, by getting the inside details as to how these decisions come about. The old adage about giving a man a fish vs. teaching him how to fish, comes to mind.
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  #458  
Old 01/09/2008, 10:36 AM
RumLad RumLad is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by RedEDGE2k1
Ah...you're back. Go back and read the build -- I opted to use a 2x6 header to span the front of the tank, rather than implement a plywood center brace (blocking access to the sump and equipment below). Loading on the 2x6 header is transferred to the floor with two 2x4s at each end.

There's really only one thing to remember when thinking about building a DIY stand for a large (200+ gallon) aquarium -- either you know what you're doing, or you don't. If you don't, then you pay someone to do it or you buy an engineered one at the fish store.

Someone with no structural knowledge could spend $1200 building a 55g stand out of 8"x8" pressure treated pine and all the 2x4 braces they want, but if it's all put together with load-bearing screw connections and a Glu-Stic, it's going to fail.

Structures is 1% material strength and 99% engineered strength.
never left, you've just been ignoring me, remember?

i think you would be hard pressed to spend 1200 on a 55 gallon stand TBH. You could buy enough 8x8's to stack a solid 48" high x 48 w x 16 d for a lot less. No need for fasteners!

But really, as above, was this by engineering design or your own "gut feeling" that you used the frame design instead of the solid design you have on the back edge?
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  #459  
Old 01/09/2008, 11:00 AM
cannarella cannarella is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by RumLad
i think you would be hard pressed to spend 1200 on a 55 gallon stand TBH.
Have you priced Teak lately?

Yes you offered up some useful tips earlier, but you have also ruffled feathers.

I think the earlier post was a jab at him for using 2x material in his stand and now he is preaching plywood. Nowhere has anyone said that you can't use both together. I think the main thing he learned is that glue is your friend.
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If my phaser discharges off by as little as .06 terra watts, it would cause a cascading exothermal inversion.
  #460  
Old 01/09/2008, 12:10 PM
RedEDGE2k1 RedEDGE2k1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by RumLad
FWIW, In his case, I think the tank could be safely built with the front edge resting solely on the plywood, as the back edge is currently doing.
No, it couldn't, because there is no structural support between the cabinet doors to carry the weight of the front of the tank (that's what the 2x6 header and 2x4 legs are for). On the back, the plywood supports the center span, with some cutouts to cut down on furniture weight. Hence, no 2x members on the back of the stand.

As for your "bashing" comments, in some instances, maybe I have been harsh on you because I interpreted your comments as being sarcastic, witty zingers. In fact, you were just ill-informed and didn't thoroughly follow the cabinet build (ie, asking why I used 2x members if plywood is strong enough by itself, while ignoring the circumstance).

However, just as many of your comments were just way off topic and argumentative, while serving no purpose (ie. the water police). I'm not taking the time to get back into it, but you get the point.

Think before you type, especially consider how it will be read across the country on someone else's computer, without facial expressions and tones of voice.

-Dustin
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90g reef/29g sump, DIY cabinet, 2x250w MH, 2x54w T5 actinics, ER RS135 skimmer, VorTech pump, 18w UV sterilizer
  #461  
Old 01/09/2008, 12:19 PM
lakee911 lakee911 is offline
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Actually, you did say "8x8 pressure treated pine." So, teak wouldn't apply.

For what it's worth an 8x8x8' PT .40 CCA costs about $55. Since that's 7.25in x 7.25in x 96in we have 5,046 cu in. A stand 48"x 48" x 16" would be 36,864 cu in. 36,864/5,046 would be a little less than 8 timbers. That's 8*55 = $440. So, yes it would be possible to build at least two stands like that with $1200.

PT lumber is not the way to go for stand building though. As it dries it can shrink and warp and it doesn't usually remain square and level and plumb...maybe one, but not all three.

Anyhow, why not just drop all the arguing before someone closes the thread?

Jason
  #462  
Old 01/09/2008, 12:28 PM
RedEDGE2k1 RedEDGE2k1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by lakee911
Actually, you did say "8x8 pressure treated pine." So, teak wouldn't apply.

Come on guys....I was making an obvious (or so I thought) exaggeration about how no matter how much wood you throw into a stand, if it's not built properly it will fail. Again, this is an exaggeration, but we all get the point, right?

I agree, lets drop it at this point and move on.
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  #463  
Old 01/09/2008, 01:51 PM
steelerguy steelerguy is offline
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This was an excellent thread and I thoroughly enjoyed seeing a bunch of wood turn into such a nice piece of furniture. I have absolutely no wood working stills beyond cutting, painting, and nailing baseboard and casing. Well, I did build a stand for my 30 gallon water tank and my chiller, but they were ugly. This thread has already got me considering a small project to build a stand for a 40 gallon frag tank. Something that will not be too heavy so I have a little wiggle room if I don't build quite right.

Anyway, I just wanted to congratulate you Red on a wonderful job and for sharing your entire planning, build, and finishing process with us. Along with being generous enough to make your plans available to others and posting costs to give people and idea what they are getting into.

As far as some posts, just remember that some people have a hard time offering advice without making it sound like criticism. Some people just get kicks nitpicking another persons work or design. Others just like to make people mad for the fun of it. Then you have people that are a combination of this and then act indignant when this is pointed out to them.

Great job, keep posting pictures as things progress, and if you start another project you better let us see (and others judge).
  #464  
Old 01/09/2008, 03:44 PM
RumLad RumLad is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by RedEDGE2k1
No, it couldn't, because there is no structural support between the cabinet doors to carry the weight of the front of the tank (that's what the 2x6 header and 2x4 legs are for). On the back, the plywood supports the center span, with some cutouts to cut down on furniture weight. Hence, no 2x members on the back of the stand.



-Dustin
Putting aside our past ,

Can I ask once again, was the decision to use the 2x header set-up on the front based on engineering design or just on your personal experience/judgement? That's all I am looking for on this topic, really.

You made the front of the stand with a simple cut-out for the doors. You still have the top and sides of the plywood "frame" to carry load. Plywood is excellent for this purpose based on its interwoven laminate structure. The width of the cut-out seems too small to be of consequence in this issue. It looks as if you have about 8 inches of 3/4 inch oak plywood covering that opening. There should be very little if any deflection from the weight of the tank, seeing as the total weight is spread over the entire bottom surface.
Again, was the decision engineering based or gut feeling?

This, I feel, is how people learn to make these decisions for themselves, instead of being told by someone else, each time they have a project to consider. If they can learn to trust their gut feeling, as some of us do, then they will be brave enough to forge ahead. If not, they know to get a proper analysis done beforehand.
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  #465  
Old 01/09/2008, 03:51 PM
RumLad RumLad is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by RedEDGE2k1
Come on guys....I was making an obvious (or so I thought) exaggeration about how no matter how much wood you throw into a stand, if it's not built properly it will fail. Again, this is an exaggeration, but we all get the point, right?

I agree, lets drop it at this point and move on.
Isn't it odd how some people take comments a certain way, even if not intended that way? You and I both know that I have congratulated your build numerous times throughout the 20 pages. Have I raised the thought provoking questions / comments along the way? Sure I have, but I think they made you take a second and consider the points raised. We aren't all perfect you know.

By the way, have you figured out the temperature issue yet? I am honestly curious to know if the convection cooling idea has worked or if you have trimmed the light cycle back or what?
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  #466  
Old 01/09/2008, 07:04 PM
itnerd itnerd is offline
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Rumlad,
Dustin is clearly a gentleman and all will agree following this thread. He generously took the time to share EVERYTHING as a good neighbor would.Lets see some of your work and please tell us how you did it. I'll sharpen my pencil.
Compare your posts to Cannarella's. What you have is a helpful participant and then not so much.
Dustin, on behalf of many of us...thanks for the effort and inspiration.
Cannarella, thanks to you as well.
This thread is one of the best I've seen lately.
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  #467  
Old 01/09/2008, 09:38 PM
cannarella cannarella is offline
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It's been fun. I really like how it has turned out. I have really enjoyed Dunstin's build. I still need to get up there and see it. I never get on that part of town.
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If my phaser discharges off by as little as .06 terra watts, it would cause a cascading exothermal inversion.
  #468  
Old 01/10/2008, 09:20 AM
RumLad RumLad is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by itnerd
Rumlad,
Dustin is clearly a gentleman and all will agree following this thread. He generously took the time to share EVERYTHING as a good neighbor would.Lets see some of your work and please tell us how you did it. I'll sharpen my pencil.
Compare your posts to Cannarella's. What you have is a helpful participant and then not so much.
Dustin, on behalf of many of us...thanks for the effort and inspiration.
Cannarella, thanks to you as well.
This thread is one of the best I've seen lately.
itnerd,
If and when I build something tank related I will be glad to share my thoughts plans ideas etc with the group. And will welcome ALL comments ideas, concerns opinions etc as they are presented.
Keep that pencil ready!
And I agree that this build thread has indeed produced one of the finest stands in a long time. I have said so numerous times from the beginning. Excuse me for asking a tough question or offering a different opinion once in a while. I thought that was encouraged (at least allowed) on this forum.

A question for you though, do you not think that water usage in the Atlanta area is an issue of concern (especially when you're beloved cannarella posts about sneaking around in the bushes at nightime in order to use his garden hose? pg 10)? Or that placing two MH lights in an enclosed canopy may cause a heat issue, when discussing the temperature of a tank?

When the op asks for peoples thoughts in the very first post, does that imply that only those opinions that agree with his should be offered?
And I thought this was an open forum for the free exchange of opinion.

That's enough from me, you all enjoy yourselves.

And please Dustin, keep us updated with a photo now and again to let us see the tank mature.
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"It is never too late to give up your prejudices" H. D. Thoreau
  #469  
Old 01/10/2008, 09:50 AM
cannarella cannarella is offline
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Yes it is a concern, but it has stabilized with rain and reduced out flow from the dam. Mid November was the time when the Media was really hyping the story. Actually the day I posted that was the worst drop in lake levels. I must have been because of me... You never hear about the drought now. Funny how the media only reports the bad stuff. Not that it is improving much. We still need a lot of rain to bring the pool back up but they have a balance now. Since winter is hear, the "rainy" season can start and hopefully help in recovery. I would say that even if we fully recover, that the leave some water restrictions on to remind us how precious it is. I never water my lawn so it won't bother me. I let mother nature do what she wants.
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If my phaser discharges off by as little as .06 terra watts, it would cause a cascading exothermal inversion.
 

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