zeovit chemistry

takayan · #1 10/12/2007, 12:56 PM

I read one article from the following HP.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/cav1i3...te_Filters.htm

The author mentioned zeolite absorbs NH4+ with Na+ or K+. However, one of my friend told me that NH4+ are existing very low in SALTWATER because SALTWATER is alkatinity solution. (Fresh water is more acid solution. )
So, intead of NH4+, there are many NH3 in SALTWATER. How does Zeolite absorb NH3 intead of NH4+? Is there any condition for making NH4+ from NH3 in Zeovit system?

Also, the author mention Zeolite absorbs Calsium. That's why Zeolite cannot be successor in marine aquarium. How does Zeobit system avoid this lowering Ca issue? Zeolite likes to absorb NH4+ than Ca2+. It sounds like no issues from the beginning.

Also, Zeovit manual says when you turn on/off 3hr intervals, Zeolite or bacteria that lives in Zeolite can take care PO4. But how?

I alrady posted similar question on ZEOvit forum, but I want to have RC members answers.

bertoni · #2 10/12/2007, 01:44 PM

This article covers ammonia:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-02/rhf/index.php

Most of the ammonia (80-90% or more) is in the form of NH4+ at normal reef pH.

Some zeolites might absorb calcium. I assume that the Zeolite product isn't one of them.

Some bacteria can consume PO₄ from the water column, since it's a macronutrient. Then, removing the bacteria from the system will export the phosphate. Sugar and vodka dosing work on this principle.

Boomer · #3 10/12/2007, 02:33 PM

Yes zeolites will, pick up ammonia in seawater to a slight degree. However, the claims by Zeovit are from another planet, IMHO and other chem guys . We have had many Zeovit threads here on RC, 100's of post on them

So, intead of NH4+, there are many NH3 in SALTWATER. How does Zeolite absorb NH3 intead of NH4+?

No, in either FW or SW it is mostly NH4 +, there is just more NH3.

As Jon is indicating, in NSW @ pH 8.3 , 25 C, NH4+ is only 10% of the total of both NH4+ and NH3. So, 1 ppm Total NH^x yields 0 .1 ppm NH3, free ammonia.

takayan · #4 10/12/2007, 02:53 PM

Thank you, Jonathan.

You are saying that PO4 will be removed by BACTERIA, but not by Zeolite. That's why you need to add ZEObak and ZEOfood to maintain some bacteria.
How about PO4 which is NOT disolved in water?

One more, ZEOvit system recomends to put activate carbon in the system to give NH4+ to bacteria not in ZEOlite. Therefore, the bacteria can have more food which is NH4+. How does activate carbon work? I think C is not released from activate carbon. Also, C is not food for the bacteria? I do not know why adding activate carbon is to give food to bacteria not in Zeolite.

takayan · #5 10/12/2007, 02:55 PM

Hi, Boomer.

From you and Jon's post, it eplained more than enough for NH4+ and NH3.

Thanks a lot!

Boomer · #6 10/12/2007, 03:01 PM

bertoni · #7 10/12/2007, 03:01 PM

PO4 that isn't dissolved isn't going to be removed, but organic forms of phosphorus can be consumed by bacteria.

I thought the carbon was intended to serve as a substrate for the bacteria, but some might be capable of consuming it. I don't know enough to comment on that issue.

takayan · #8 10/12/2007, 03:07 PM

Hi, Jon. Thank you, again.

I think some of phosphate that is not dissolbed stay in LR or LS. How can Zeovit system or other natural system remove these?
Replacing LR or LS is only a solution?

bertoni · #9 10/12/2007, 03:26 PM

Any phosphate adsorbed onto the live rock can only be removed by replacing the live rock or treating it with acid (killing it). Over time, the phosphate on the rock or sand might be released into the water column, where various mechanisms might remove it.

Boomer · #10 10/12/2007, 03:27 PM

One more, ZEOvit system recommends to put activate carbon in the system to give NH4+ to bacteria not in ZEOlite.

That is nonsense

GAC does not give off ammonia. The reason behind the zeovit system and the zeoltie is to let bacteria grow on the zeolite, and then strip them off and start over again, creating a nutrient low environment.

takayan · #11 10/12/2007, 03:42 PM

Thank you, Jon and Boomer.

It sounds like we need to replace LR after passed certain time.
How often do you change LR?

Boomer, that's right. Why does ZEOvit system recomemded to put activate carbon? I have no idea...

bertoni · #12 10/12/2007, 03:59 PM

I don't see any reason to believe that live rock needs to be replaced after any given period of time.

takayan · #13 10/12/2007, 04:08 PM

Really?
Phosphate that is not dissolved may stay in LR, right? If it is not removed constantly, it is accumulated year and year. It may eventually affect on corals or fish.

mesocosm · #14 10/12/2007, 04:29 PM

Greetings All !

Quote:

Originally posted by takayan
... ZEOvit system recomends to put activate carbon in the system to give NH4+ to bacteria not in ZEOlite. ...

Could you please post a link to this? I've watched the ZEOvit discussion in various reefkeeping cyberspaces with more than a passing interest for a few years now ... I can't remember a single recommendation from either Korallen-Zucht, ZEOvit distributors, or ZEOsystem users, which suggests activated carbon as an ammonium source for bacteria.

Many Thanks !

bertoni · #15 10/12/2007, 04:51 PM

I don't see any reason to believe that phosphate always is building up on live rock. Phosphate can be adsorbed and released, but that's not necessarily going to lead to any problems.

takayan · #16 10/12/2007, 05:07 PM

Hi, Mesocosm.

I was wrong. The author of following HP said that, but not by Korallen-Zucht.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/cav1i...ite_Filters.htm
Accoring to Korallen-Zucht maunual, activate carbon is used for removing some proteins like protein skimmer.
I am sorry I confused you.

Jon,
I see. Phosphate can exist by variety of forms in marine aquarium.

mesocosm · #17 10/12/2007, 07:18 PM

Greetings All !

Quote:

Originally posted by takayan
... I was wrong. ... I am sorry I confused you. ...

ROTFL ... No worries!

Quote:

Originally posted by takayan
... I alrady posted similar question on ZEOvit forum, ...

In the most general sense, the answer that Marshal (CAReefer) gave you a little over 2 hours after your post was entirely correct.

Quote:

Originally posted by takayan
... The author mentioned zeolite absorbs NH4+ with Na+ or K+. ...

A few definitions with important distinctions ...

Absorption: The taking up or retention of one material by another by chemical or molecular action.
Adsorption: The gathering of a gas, liquid, or dissolved substance on the surface or interface zone of another substance.
Ion Exchange: An exchange of ions between two electrolytes or between an electrolyte solution and a complex. Ion exchangers can be unselective or have binding preferences for certain ions or classes of ions, depending on their chemical structure. This can be dependent on the size of the ions, their charge, or their structure.

I bring this up because what's going on between NH4 and zeolite media is a combination of ion exchange and adsorption .. not absorption.

Quote:

Originally posted by takayan
... Is there any condition for making NH4+ from NH3 in Zeovit system? ...

No. As has already been noted, this is a function of pH and has nothing to do with the ZEOvit methodology.

Quote:

Originally posted by takayan
... the author mention Zeolite absorbs Calsium. That's why Zeolite cannot be successor in marine aquarium. How does Zeobit system avoid this lowering Ca issue? That's why Zeolite cannot be successor in marine aquarium. ...

There's a lot of myth-information about how zeolites function in seawater bubbling about in reefkeeping cyberspaces, so perhaps a little background information is in order ...

Affinity: The force attracting atoms to each other and binding them together in a molecule. The tendency of a molecule to associate with another. The strength of noncovalent chemical binding between two substances as measured by the dissociation constant of the complex.

Natural zeolites demonstrate ion exchange on their surface with a variety of cations typically present in seawater (... positively charged atoms, or molecules, like sodium, potassium, calcium, cesium, and ammonium). The rate at which these cations are exchanged on the surface of the zeolite is determined by the concentration of the cations present, and the zeolite's affinity for the cation (a function of its structure and composition). Different zeolites have a different affinity for different cations. For example, the tendency of a zeolite to undergo ionic exchange with cesium is different than its tendency to undergo ionic exchange with potassium. Similarly, the tendency of clinoptilolite (a natural zeolite commonly speculated to be the major component of both ZEOvit media and Ultralith media) to bind with ammonium, is different from the tendency of phillipsite (another natural zeolite) to bind with ammonium.

The rate at which natural zeolites do ionic exchange decreases rapidly in solutions rich in a variety of cations (like seawater). In freshwater, zeolites do ion exchange with ammonium quite efficiently, and for relatively extended periods of time ... because there are no competing cations as there are in seawater. The assertion that natural zeolites are preforming efficient ion exchange with ammonium for relatively extended periods of time in seawater is simply without scientific basis ... no matter how "special" the zeolites are claimed to be.

The assertion of some sort of "selective preference" for ammonium on the surface of a natural zeolite in seawater is undemonstrated. Is it possible for a combination of zeolites to demonstrate a greater affinity for ammonium than other combinations? Absolutely. Might a transient ammonium "gradient" which is beneficial to the attachment and colonization of bacteria be formed by such a combination? Absolutely. But the notion that zeolites in seawater are functioning as an effective ammonium filter media by virtue of a "selective preference" mechanism is without basis.

Not JMO ... this is the science.

HTH

Boomer · #18 10/12/2007, 10:07 PM

Yup, and I have posted crap loads of stuff on Zeolites. Just type in "clinoptilolite " and Boomer as "User name" in the search window on RC and any date.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/search...der=descending

takayan · #19 10/12/2007, 11:23 PM

mesocosm and Boomer
Thank you for lecturing me a lot!

By the way, what is vodka? (Alcohol?)
Where can I buy it?

dosing vodka to bring down N and P
Is this real?

acrylic_300 · #20 10/13/2007, 01:01 AM

Vodka is a carbon source...not to be confused with activated carbon

Yes it is also alcohol.

takayan · #21 10/15/2007, 08:23 PM

Thank you, acrylic_300.
Do you know where I can buy it?

Does someone explain why Zeolite adsorb NH4+ rather than Ca2+?

Boomer · #22 10/15/2007, 09:13 PM

Zeolites do adsorb Ca++ that is what they are used for in water softening. They also adsorb NH4+ and more so in FW as there is usually little Ca++ in it. Why and how they do this is a very complicated subject that deals with the surface of the zeolite and its "affinity" for certain ions.

Here yeah go, you asked

CATION-EXCHANGE CAPACITY OF ZEOLITES
http://www.gsaresources.com/cationexchange.htm

takayan · #23 10/16/2007, 04:32 PM

Thank you very much, Boomer!
I think I need to study to understand the contents you put.
However, it still says Zeolite adsorbs Ca2+ rather than NH4+ from the chart.
How it works on Saltwater is still mistery for me.

Boomer · #24 10/16/2007, 07:40 PM

Use of Clinoptilolite Zeolites for Ammonia-N Transfer and Retention in Integrated Aquaculture Systems and for Improving Pond Water Quality before Discharge
http://pdacrsp.oregonstate.edu/pubs/...10/10ATR5.html

Natural Zeolite Clinoptilolite for Use by Fisheries, Fish Farms, Trucks, Aquariums
http://www.safetysorbzeolita.com/fisheries.html

n vitro Comparison of Zeolite (Clinoptilolite)
and Activated Carbon
as Ammonia Absorbants in Fish Culture
http://www.worldfishcenter.org/Naga/...uabyte%204.pdf

takayan · #25 10/17/2007, 05:55 PM

Thanks, Boomer.
These links are for FW, but not for SW.
In SW, there are a lot of Ca2++, so if we use Zeolite in SW, Zeolite would only adsorb Ca2+ instead of NH4+.
I believe Zeolite for ZEOvit system is Clinoptilolite or Mordenite.
Al?„Ca?„Mg?„K(?àNH4)?„Na is characteristic for Zeolite.