OK! Enough chat...Starting a 1000g+ Reef

[lamarine23]

dhnguyen,

I didn't make any assumptions regarding Jonathan's tank....he stated repeatedly what the dims where and thickness of the material. No assumptions needed.

To go with what you stated about over building something to compensate for poor engineering, that is the case here as the top was built out of a much thicker material to compensate for the rest of the tank, which was all built out of 3/4" material (I don't recall the bottom).

I do this for a living and I don't need to prove anything to you, I am merely stating my professional opinion and the fact the tank was under built, and I don't need to have seen it to make that determination when he has given the rest of the info.

Still no takers on the "find a manufacturer" that will build that tank with a warranty....didn't think so.

Jon,
I apologize that at a time like this we have to discuss this and make this time more difficult for you but I just want people to hear all pertinent information as to this case and can make a more informed decision.

[triggerfish1976]

Originally posted by sherm71tank
Hey Jonathan don't you know everyone has ESP? I'm off work now and ready to do some running around. Wanna go to the shark reef?

Not ESP I just have a good memory, ok half way decent. The first post on this thread read like this "It will be in-wall, 8'L x 5'D x 35"H, with refugium, DIY skimmer, etc." So I was off 1" on the height.

The formula takes into consideration the fact that most people use the same thickness on all sides so entering in the width doesn't effect the calculations unless the sides are longer which they would then be used as the length in the formula.

As long as you have euro bracing and crossbracing it is considered close top.

[dhnguyen]

So now should we add a little clause to the Vortech specs that it cannot be used on "underbuilt" acrylic tanks nevermind that said tanks would have held water just fine and would have continued to do so for years on end without said pump.

Underbuilt tank = lame excuse and finger pointing if you ask me. The Vortech pump IMO IS the cause of the crazing, end of story.

[ReefArtist]

Originally posted by jnarowe
All pumps produce heat. So do lamps. I have a T-5 Array that gets above 180F, and I would bet dollars-to-donuts my halides are WAY hotter than that. But they don't make contact with my tank.

I also realize that and I know that up front so I take that into consideration (fans, blowers etc). I guess I'm stupid and didn't add into my heat equation pumps (not return pumps) that run 140 degs. I guess what I'm saying is thank you for bring this up - sorry it has happened but give it time and it will happen to others - JMO.

[mdrumm]

nevermind that said tanks would have held water just fine and would have continued to do so for years on end without said pump.

just out of curiousity, where are you getting your information that underbuilt tanks would have continuted on end without said pump? is that where the ESP comes in?

[triggerfish1976]

Originally posted by dhnguyen
So now should we add a little clause to the Vortech specs that it cannot be used on "underbuilt" acrylic tanks nevermind that said tanks would have held water just fine and would have continued to do so for years on end without said pump.

Underbuilt tank = lame excuse and finger pointing if you ask me. The Vortech pump IMO IS the cause of the crazing, end of story.

Why should Vortech have to do this when the light manufactures don't. Metal Halides have caused more cases of crazing on underbuilt acrylic tanks than I would dare to estimate but people still continue to use them and don't try and strong arm the businesses when something goes wrong. When you add the age of the tank on top of the fact that it is under built you are asking for problems.
If anyone is responsible here it is the person who sold such an underbuilt tank.

[dhnguyen]

Originally posted by mdrumm
just out of curiousity, where are you getting your information that underbuilt tanks would have continuted on end without said pump? is that where the ESP comes in?

No ESP here. Unlike most who posted on here, I've actually seen this tank and Jonathan's setup in person.

Fact is the crazings were not anywhere EXCEPT for where the Vortechs were mounted...... DOH!!

Fact is this tank held water for many years before the Vortechs were introduced and yet no crazing happened previously .... DOH!!

[dhnguyen]

Originally posted by triggerfish1976
Why should Vortech have to do this when the light manufactures don't. Metal Halides have caused more cases of crazing on underbuilt acrylic tanks than I would dare to estimate but people still continue to use them and don't try and strong arm the businesses when something goes wrong. When you add the age of the tank on top of the fact that it is under built you are asking for problems.
If anyone is responsible here it is the person who sold such an underbuilt tank.

Because crazing ontop of the tank is not going to cause the whole thing to bust. MH manufacturers also do not claim their products to be low-heat unlike the Vortech.

[mdrumm]

don't tanks always hold water right up until that point when they don't?

and i don't understand how seeing jon's tank lets you make blanket statements about all underbuilt tanks?

[dhnguyen]

Originally posted by mdrumm
don't tanks always hold water right up until that point when they don't?

and i don't understand how seeing jon's tank lets you make blanket statements about all underbuilt tanks?

You're not making any sense and writing completely out of context here. Tanks don't develop spontaneous crazings without external factors here is the point I'm trying to make. This tank would not have crazed had it not been for the Vortechs.

And no one has answered my previous question about how is a tank considered underbuilt here. On what/whose standards? What formulas? Who's to say Jonathan's tank is underbuilt? Has Eco-Tech sent anyone onsite to take measurements and do some analysis on said tank? Nope.

[mdrumm]

dhnguyen,

best of luck to you.

As Mark Twain said,

"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."

[triggerfish1976]

Originally posted by dhnguyen
Because crazing ontop of the tank is not going to cause the whole thing to bust. MH manufacturers also do not claim their products to be low-heat unlike the Vortech.

Not true, as seen in the thread I referenced earlier, expansion and contraction from excess heat caused the eurobracing to split which could have easily led to tank failure.
Underbuilting a tank to 1/2 spec. is more likely to cause it to bust as apposed to the Vortech.
The low heat statement applies to heat transfered to water in which case they are. Eco Tech has gladly quoted the operating temps. of their pumps so I don't see how they are making any other claims other than fact.
As I said earlier and will say again, the heat is being directed away from the tank as shown in the previous test so this means this tank crazed even under lower temps. than what are being touted so I still don't understand how you can put the blame solely on the pump, oh wait you have seen the tank in person so you obviously know Jonathan which equals bias.

[triggerfish1976]

Originally posted by dhnguyen

And no one has answered my previous question about how is a tank considered underbuilt here. On what/whose standards? What formulas? Who's to say Jonathan's tank is underbuilt? Has Eco-Tech sent anyone onsite to take measurements and do some analysis on said tank? Nope.

I thought I provided a formula.
Why should they spend thousands of dollars in travel costs to prove his tank is underbuilt when he has already given the data that proves it.

[steve the plumb]

If Jonathan didn't use these pumps and the tank never crazed then would you say the tank is under built?No we wouldn't be having this discussion.If Jonathan never used these pumps but after 18 years of service(lets say) the tank starts to develop a leak or starts to bow would you say the tank is under built or it was the lifespan of the tank.How long is the tank supposed to last?10 years 20 years.Is the tank supposed to last forever?I don't know no one does but it is obvious that in the spot where the pumps were placed crazing occurred.So you can't say that the pump didn't cause this.If ecotech places a warning for all acrylic tank owners that the pump may damage the tank then thats fine.By warning you that your tank may get damaged if you use this pump at least they are saying use the pump at your own risk but we are not responsible for any damage that may be caused.I would say that this would be a fair warning and it would be up to me as consumer to take that risk.Now if my tank gets crazed well its nobody's fault but my own.I took a gamble and lost.

[jnarowe]

The first gamble was when Eco-Tech stated that the pumps could be used on any wave maker. When I asked about using it on the AquaController, I was told that it would work fine, as long as I had a minimum cycle of 1 minute. So I bought 4.

Then drivers started frying all over the place. Eco-Tech then stated to use a minimum of 5 minute cycles, then 10 minute, and finally ending up at 20 minute minimum clcyles, which is essentially useless as a cyle for our needs. The point is, they did limited research and released the product into a hailstorm. The end result is that the MP-40 just couldn't be turned on and off without some risk of "code corruption". Nevermind the months of dealing with the insane rattling.

You guys have no idea how much time I have put into these pumps, nor do I get credit for furthering Eco-tech's mission by posting inumerable messages describing the over-whelming advantages to using these pumps.

So I bought into the line at some $2,500 to pair them up with the rather robust AquaController, only to be told they couldn't be used with it. I had at least 5 drivers fry, and had to send them back. I was told I would be using them on the ACIII Pro at my own risk, so I had to take them off the controller. My original plan was for 7 Vortechs @ 3200 gph coupled with my Hammerhead to give me 25,000 gph at a reasonable 600W...

Then came the initial crazing. Superficial in nature, but nonetheless disturbing. I let it go...here's a key issue!! I let it go when they initially crazed my tank...we did a work-around to keep the tank from being damaged. I was told to lower the speed, which I did. Running them at about 60% yielded a heat sink temp of 120 - 125F which is where I felt there would be no further damage. Unfortunately, that yielded only 7,680 gph for the 4 pumps or 13,440 gph for the original plan of seven pumps. This resulted in a near total tank crash BTW. I lost a few large colonies and several small ones. And this also put me into the arena of needing 11 - 12 pumps to achieve the net flow I require for my tank. And do I really want to pay that much money for a pump I can only use at a fraction of its potential?

I can fully respect those posting on this subject. Eco-Tech is a team of young guys trying to build new thinking in tank flow, and I commend them for that. They still have a lot to learn about business, but we have all been through that at one point or another.

For instance, as soon as the video came out of the Vortechs being controlled by a roving wireless driver at MACNA, Eco-Tech should have immediately posted that was just a test scenario, and by no means would the final product have that range. They knew this at the time, because the person doing the demonstration stated at the time, that there was no way the FCC would allow that device to work in that manner.

But what happened instead, is that Eco-Tech enjoyed the "buzz" created and shipped a product with very limited range. In fact, if I walk between two drivers, they will lose communication.

More to come...

[triggerfish1976]

There seem to be way to many 'if's" in this thread.

Yes the tank is still underbuilt regardless of the pump.

The pump is only a secondary cause. The tank's build is the main cause. If the tank was built using the correct acrylic thinkness this should not have happened.

[triggerfish1976]

Originally posted by jnarowe
The first gamble was when Eco-Tech stated that the pumps could be used on any wave maker. When I asked about using it on the AquaController, I was told that it would work fine, as long as I had a minimum cycle of 1 minute. So I bought 4.

Then drivers started frying all over the place. Eco-Tech then stated to use a minimum of 5 minute cycles, then 10 minute, and finally ending up at 20 minute minimum clcyles, which is essentially useless as a cyle for our needs. The point is, they did limited research and released the product into a hailstorm. The end result is that the MP-40 just couldn't be turned on and off without some risk of "code corruption". Nevermind the months of dealing with the insane rattling.

You guys have no idea how much time I have put into these pumps, nor do I get credit for furthering Eco-tech's mission by posting inumerable messages describing the over-whelming advantages to using these pumps.

So I bought into the line at some $2,500 to pair them up with the rather robust AquaController, only to be told they couldn't be used with it. I had at least 5 drivers fry, and had to send them back. I was told I would be using them on the ACIII Pro at my own risk, so I had to take them off the controller. My original plan was for 7 Vortechs @ 3200 gph coupled with my Hammerhead to give me 25,000 gph at a reasonable 600W...

Then came the initial crazing. Superficial in nature, but nonetheless disturbing. I let it go...here's a key issue!! I let it go when they initially crazed my tank...we did a work-around to keep the tank from being damaged. I was told to lower the speed, which I did. Running them at about 60% yielded a heat sink temp of 120 - 125F which is where I felt there would be no further damage. Unfortunately, that yielded only 7,680 gph for the 4 pumps or 13,440 gph for the original plan of seven pumps. This resulted in a near total tank crash BTW. I lost a few large colonies and several small ones. And this also put me into the arena of needing 11 - 12 pumps to achieve the net flow I require for my tank. And do I really wnat to pay that much money for a pump I can only use at a fraction of its potential

I can fully respect those posting on this subject. Eco-tech is a team of young guys trying to build new thinking in tank flow, and I commend them for that. They still have a lot to learn about business, but we have all been through that at one point or another.

For instance, as soon as the video came out of the Vortechs being controlled by a roving wireless driver at MACNA, Eco-Tech should have immediately posted that was just a test scenario, and by no means would the final product have that range. They knew this at the time, because the person do the demonstration stated at the time, that there was no way the FCC would allow that device to work in that manner.

But what happened instead, is that Eco-Tech enjoyed the "buzz" created and shipped a product with very limited range. In fact, if I walk between two drivers, they will lose communication.

More to come...

Jonathan,

Don't you still use these on your tank?

[chris wright]

Originally posted by triggerfish1976
There seem to be way to many 'if's" in this thread.

Yes the tank is still underbuilt regardless of the pump.

The pump is only a secondary cause. The tank's build is the main cause. If the tank was built using the correct acrylic thinkness this should not have happened.

I'm still a little confused. So if the tank were say 1 inch thick, could we say without any doubt that the heat generated by the vortech's would have no effect?. It's a point load of excessive heat that's transfering through the material, which I would think no matter the extra thickness would still occur.

I'm no expert either, but I don't see the logic in the thicker material stopping this problem, it would just take longer for the problem to rear it's head. The pumps would still be extremely hot, and the heat would transfer wider, but the epicentre would not change.

As for the metal halides, I'd like to see someone place one on a piece of acrylic when it's been running for 8 hours. This would give a more accurate effect of MH on acrylic. Also with no fans to cool them, which is the same as these pumps. Sounds stupid I know, but it would be a truer comparison for effect.

[jnarowe]

You are seriously deluded trigger. I think you are missing the point so I offer this photo to help you understand. This is a picture of 3 Vortechs running at 100% for more than a week all in relatively the same area of the tank, and they have not crazed at all. The arrow points to the severe crazing area.



Now look at this picture agian:



Now does that look like the result of a pump that is operating at normal temps., or perhaps might this have pump failed in some manner as to spike the temperature to the glass?

And BTW, someone posted pics of temp. readings after 20 minutes, and that is no test at all...I have been working with these pumps for well over a year, monitoring them on a daily basis for a variety of issues, not the least of which is heat damage.

You can't seriously claim that the tank is the primary issue when none of the other pumps have crazed like this right? Or are you a shill for Eco-tech?

You have to understand that Eco-Tech is enjoying the fruit of the seeds of doubt planted regarding the integrity of my tank. But I know, and anyone who has visited knows, that there is a problem here with that pump. It may be that a combination of factors led to this failure, but certainly the pump over-heating is not the smallest contributor. Look at the pictures...that is clearly the result of some sort of pump failure. My guess would be that it failed to turn off when it reached the safety that Eco-tech has programmed into it. Maybe the driver went bad?

I hope that people using these on acrylic tanks at least have some awareness that a problem can occur.

The pump is only a secondary cause.

I hope you are getting paid dude.

[melev]

Looking at the location of the crazed area, I think a bulkhead placed in that spot would be the best solution. It isn't in the front viewing panel, nor even in an area that is of any real viewing value. It would fix the problem and resolve the fear you have that the tank might spring a leak, resulting in lost of livestock.

[jnarowe]

BTW, I forgot to mention that the white circles you see beside two of those pumps is just dead coraline on the wet side. That is not damage to the tank.

[jnarowe]

Originally posted by triggerfish1976
Jonathan,

Don't you still use these on your tank?

Yes, I have no choice. This is part of the developing problem. because I built my tank around these pumps, I cannot just bring CL online. I would have to drain the tank and drill for them. I am NOT willing to pop a bunch of Tunze into the tank. That is not a solution IMO.

[mdrumm]

if the tank were say 1 inch thick, could we say without any doubt that the heat generated by the vortech's would have no effect?. It's a point load of excessive heat that's transfering through the material, which I would think no matter the extra thickness would still occur.

Unfortunately vortechs wont work on a 1" thick tank. But I think the point is that the heat from the pumps couples extra stress placed on the 3/4" acrylic led to the crazing. If a vortech could work on a 1" tank or if this tank were say a 225 gallon 3/4' acrlyic, there would be no stress on the acrylic so there would be no crazing. I am not an engineer though so I can't say for sure

You are seriously deluded trigger.

jnarowe, you have all your friends posting here bashing ectoech by offering their opinions. Trigger is actually presented facts on here. Granted, it is not what you want to hear, but it is facts nonetheless.

You have to understand that Eco-Tech is enjoying the fruit of the seeds of doubt planted regarding the integrity of my tank

I still don't think anyone has found a manufacturer that would build a tank of your dimensions out of 3/4" acrylic. Of all the tank manufacturers, how come no one is able to find at least one that would make your tank and provide a warranty?

I hope you are getting paid dude

Ectotech has created a revolutionary product. The WWD is amazing. Trigger, I am guessing like myself, is trying to state the other side of the argument

[mdrumm]

I am NOT willing to pop a bunch of Tunze into the tank

why not? I am sure you could sell your vortechs on the RC used equip forum and buy tunze. I may even buy one if you are interested in selling.

[jnarowe]

Marc, that is indeed one option, but in order to remove the affected area, I would have to install a 3" BH which has a hole of 4.5"/ That is a very large bulkhead to be viewed from the front pane....now I don't need any jokes about seeing through the front pane!! I just don't feel that is a good solution either.

I do have a pool and the BH to do that, but I was hoping that Eco-Tech would come through for me so I wouldn't have to go through that. Displacing 700 - 800 gal. of water and probably a lot of corals to affect that repair is nausiating at best.