OK! Enough chat...Starting a 1000g+ Reef - Page 20

sherm71tank · #**476** 12/20/2007, 10:51 PM

I have new pumps and they both run right at 140 fahrenheit at 100% (ambient room temp is usually 70 or below). Jonathans constant bragging about them is why I broke down and purchased them. So glad my tank is glass.

jnarowe · #**477** 12/20/2007, 11:02 PM

They are running between 119F and 125F, but only because I have them in pulse mode. Eco-Tech recommended that after I took initial temps. and found that they were still too high.

chris wright · #**478** 12/21/2007, 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by melev
If there were 5 cases or more, I could better understand people's fears. And even that would be just a handful vs. all the pumps out there. So far, it appears to be the only case in two years' time.

Out of all the posts I've read both on RC and our own club's message board, I've not seen people being treated poorly by EcoTech/IceCap's customer service. Post after post, customer service either replied quickly or the person posted that their issue was resolved. Which is what we would expect.

How they deal with this customer - that's what really is being discussed in this thread. It seems several people want EcoTech to buy him a new tank. When Kent's Sea Salt killed off livestock across the nation with the bad batch of salt, they offered replacement salt or some other equipment at the same value. They did not replace lost livestock, nor the money it would cost to replace the livestock.

In the end, I do hope everyone involved in this situation is content. However, the court of public opinion really has no bearing on this situation because as was pointed out, we don't know all the facts and we risk being wrong by assuming we do.

To simplify this, If Eco-tech is at fault, then yes they should replace this tank. A 1000 gallon tank, that's crazed where these units were placed, is the most plausible explanation.

IF the tank is faulty through materials and construction, then no, they shouldn't.

I still don't see how though, that if heat from MH lights can deform an acrylic tank, how these pumps creating a point heat source can not do the same. This tank obviously didn't have this problem until these unit's were used, so If it were my company, I'd be at Jonathons investigating this problem first hand to try to get the problem sorted out.

I feel that as someone has pointed out, that you are not putting yourself in Jonathon's position. I know you do alot for the hobby, but I don't see that defending this company to be to wise at the moment. As Jonathon has pointed out, he has not disclosed all the conversations, and to draw out this long is wrong. This company owes it to themselves to solve this issue quickly and completely so as to avoid threads such as this from arising.

As for Kent's salt, i wouldn't touch it. If the company can't provide good quality control, then it's not worth using.

gkarshens · #**479** 12/21/2007, 08:12 AM

Not that my opinion matters much but I will give it anyway.

I have to agree with Chris about the Kent situation not being relevant. If I had used their salt and lost livestock because they sent out a faulty product, a new batch of their product is not going to satisfy me. I would be calling them daily until it was replaced. Just because one company has a less than satisfactory "fix" for their mistake doesn't make it ok for others to follow suit. I will never buy Kent after that whole salt fiasco. I am not going to comment on who's fault it is in this situation because I don't know enough about acrylic to be any kind of expert. If I was in Jonathan's position I would be ****ed, but I can also see why Eco-tech is a little hesitant to take blame since this is the only tank that it has happened on (that I know of).

Kent E · #**480** 12/21/2007, 08:16 AM

If there are back door hush deals, how do we know this is the only case?

gkarshens · #**481** 12/21/2007, 08:19 AM

That is why I said "that I know of."

Kent E · #**482** 12/21/2007, 08:22 AM

My point was directed at your post, sorry if you took it that way.

This is just whats popping up in my mind with this whole topic in general. If I had an acrylic tank I would hesitate in purchasing a vortech. And I think they're very cool, innovative, and well made.

triggerfish1976 · #**483** 12/21/2007, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by chris wright

IF the tank is faulty through materials and construction, then no, they shouldn't.

I still don't see how though, that if heat from MH lights can deform an acrylic tank, how these pumps creating a point heat source can not do the same. This tank obviously didn't have this problem until these unit's were used,

You are still leaving out the most important aspect here and that is the underbuilt aspect of the tank. If the tank was built to spec. neither the metal halide heat or pump heat should have caused crazing if they are used properly. This aspect is just an issue that acrylic tank owners should understand and know how to deal with if they choose acrylic over glass.

I think bmwaaron temp. test shows that the 140 degree measurements are misleading because they are being read from the heat sink which is actually being directed away from the tank. The temp. dropped 15% when it was measured near the area that actually touches the tank. If this is the case with all Vortechs and the actual temperature was close to 120 degrees and still caused the tank to craze then I would be more concerned about the integrity of the tank long term if metal halides are also being used.

One last thing that I want to say to everyone who is questioning the customer service level of Icecap and Eco tech and that is we shouldn't be so quick to pile onto a business just for the sake of doing so. I see this all to often on forums such as ours when a mob mentality seems to develop due to friendships and the familiarity that we all aquire between each other. Unfortunetly this develops shared opinions and bias thus making us blind to the actual facts of a situation which seems to be what is happening here.
I have no ties to either Eco Tech or Jonathan so I am only seeing this as a black and white situation and from what I have read and heard, the business end of this situation has offered reasonable solutions to rectify this situation IMOP. I honestly don't know of any business that would replace a 1000g USED tank given the circumstances surrounding this issue and anyone who thinks that is the only acceptable solution is being very unrealistic IMOP.

steve the plumb · #**484** 12/21/2007, 10:30 AM

This is the reason I didn't buy them.I was going to buy two but after seeing the damage they caused do I need the hassle.I wouldn't take that kind of a gamble.Imagine I had to dismantle my tank.The live stock,what would you do with it,all the plumbing would need to be redone.Having to buy another tank.More than likely you would lose some livestock in the transfer.Now imagine that with a 1000 plus gallon system.I think it would be a nightmare.Do you think for any moment that ecotech will admit they have a faulty product.It won't happen this is why 18 months later this is still a problem.Its a very big problem.How do you replace a 1000 plus gallon tank?where do you place all the livestock?Who is responsible to do all the work?(Jonathan)The guy has a life he has to work so now he would have to take time off to do all this,re set up another tank,test everything for leaks,place all the livestock back.Hopefully he doesn't lose anything.Do you realize how much work is involved in this.Even if ecotech admits some fault and buys Jonathan a brand new tank the amount of time and work that goes into setting it up,never mind having to spend more money because you will run into something(plumbing parts)If they had half a brain they would have tried to settle and bought him a new tank have him sign a non disclosure agreement and saved themselves the hassle of being sued.I would have taken them to court.I know its not cheap but neither is a system of this size.I don't think that you could prove 100% that Jonathans tank was defective.It held water for this long and never had any problems.Just the fact that he has been this patient and tried to work this problem out between the company shows you something about his character.I wouldn't have been this nice about.I see some bull s h i t flying around.Lets face it you will never see this company admit any wrong doing,after the bottom line is its all about money and no company wants to lose it.They lost some from me and other due to this thread and I would think that they will lose more in sales.There will always be others that will still buy there product,just not me.

triggerfish1976 · #**485** 12/21/2007, 11:27 AM

Here is an interesting thread that shows what can happen when heat is applied to underbuilt or incorrectly built acrylic tanks.
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...=acrylic+crack

Was the light manufacture at fault in this situation or was the the tank owners fault for not spending the extra money and using 1" on the top as apposed to 1/2". I would say the later. At the time this issue was a big deal and I know for a fact that the tank was not replaced by the lighting manuf. and people continue to use metal halides on their acrylic tanks.

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...=acrylic+crack

triggerfish1976 · #**486** 12/21/2007, 11:28 AM

Here is an interesting thread that shows what can happen when heat is applied to underbuilt or incorrectly built acrylic tanks. Was the light manufacture at fault in this situation or was the the tank owners fault for not spending the extra money and using 1" on the top as apposed to 1/2". I would say the later. At the time this issue was a big deal and I know for a fact that the tank was not replaced by the lighting manuf. and people continue to use metal halides on their acrylic tanks.

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...=acrylic+crack

triggerfish1976 · #**487** 12/21/2007, 11:28 AM

Here is an interesting thread that shows what can happen when heat is applied to underbuilt or incorrectly built acrylic tanks.
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...=acrylic+crack

Was the light manufacture at fault in this situation or was the the tank owners fault for not spending the extra money and using 1" on the top as apposed to 1/2". I would say the later. At the time this issue was a big deal and I know for a fact that the tank was not replaced by the lighting manuf. and people continue to use metal halides on their acrylic tanks.

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...=acrylic+crack

dhnguyen · #**488** 12/21/2007, 11:46 AM

What most people fail to recognize is that there is no such thing as "up to spec" and industry standards in this hobby. What is "to spec"? It's not like we have some sort of consortium that tested and quantified what parameters are acceptible and what aren't. It's not like we have a certification and licensing requirement of some sort for such products or manufacturers thereof. All we hobbiests have to go on are the claims of the manufacturers.... More and more often nowadays I find them to be hogwash.

A properly engineered product also doesn't mean it's overbuilt. Infact if it was properly designed and engineered, it shouldn't be overbuilt. IMO/IME overbuilding is often to compensate for poor engineering.

I am not saying that Jonathan's tank was in any way a perfectly engineered product. But if I was Eco-Tech, given the stakes involved, I would have at least sent someone qualified out to the site in order to investigate the issue in person, not over the phone or over the net. How can it be so easy to say one thing and convince yourself that it's not your problem when you have never actually even seen the problem first hand in the first place?

lamarine23 · #**489** 12/21/2007, 12:28 PM

Dude are you serious??? You don't think there is any engineering work done when someone builds a tank? They have formulas that help them (manufacturers) figure out what size thickness to use.

What's interesting to me is that the person who gave the 140 degree rating for acrylic under pressure rating has already stated that the pump was not the sole cause and he is an expert in the field but yet people use that and quote him as the exact rating but don't listen to him when he states that the pump was not the sole cause!

If you don't want the pumps fine just don't make it seem like this happens all the time and everyone should beware or that customer service has been horrible with both Ecotech/Ice Cap. Since when do we base our opinion on the minority because it's definitely not the majority.

Anyone try to find a legit manufacture that would build that tank with those dims using that thickness of acrylic material and give you a warranty?

ReefArtist · #**490** 12/21/2007, 12:52 PM

I'm really looking at this as an outsider. I don't own an acrylic tank or the Ecotech pumps. When I first started my build I looked at the pumps I wanted, did some comparisons and went with the brand that gave me the power and what I could afford. I would have NEVER thought to check to see how hot the pumps would get. This is from MarineDepot:
Ecotech Marine VorTech Propeller Pump/Powerhead
High flow, low heat, easy, efficient and controllable technology. Bracketless Design, No Heat Transfer, Controllable, No AC Current in the aquarium, Run-Safe Design, etc. I guess they fixed the problem - if this is your same pump???

jtarmitage · #**491** 12/21/2007, 12:59 PM

What they meant was low heat transferred to the water, not necessarily low head on the external pump end.

dhnguyen · #**492** 12/21/2007, 01:03 PM

lamarine -
Prove to me that J's tank was underbuilt. You're making a lot of assumptions when you have never seen this tank nor even know anything about how it was built.

I also never said engineering is not involved in designing and building a tank

Merely that overbuilding is not the same as well engineered.

ReefArtist · #**493** 12/21/2007, 01:03 PM

Yes I realize that but I definitely don't want pumps in my fish room producing 140 degrees!

triggerfish1976 · #**494** 12/21/2007, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dhnguyen
lamarine -
Prove to me that J's tank was underbuilt. You're making a lot of assumptions when you have never seen this tank nor even know anything about how it was built.

The fact that the sides are built out of 3/4" proves that it is underbuilt.
Cyro Industries has a acrylic thickness calculator that "recommends" more than 1.35" thick panels and this calculator does not take into consideration any other stresses. That is almost 2 x the thickness on this tank.

mdrumm · #**495** 12/21/2007, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Yes I realize that but I definitely don't want pumps in my fish room producing 140 degrees!"

I am not an engineer but I have burned my hand on my metal halides...anyone have any idea how hot those get?

jnarowe · #**496** 12/21/2007, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by triggerfish1976
Here is an interesting thread that shows what can happen when heat is applied to underbuilt or incorrectly built acrylic tanks. Was the light manufacture at fault in this situation or was the the tank owners fault for not spending the extra money and using 1" on the top as apposed to 1/2". I would say the later. At the time this issue was a big deal and I know for a fact that the tank was not replaced by the lighting manuf. and people continue to use metal halides on their acrylic tanks.

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...=acrylic+crack

This article is completely unrelated to my situation. Why post that?

jnarowe · #**497** 12/21/2007, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ReefArtist
Yes I realize that but I definitely don't want pumps in my fish room producing 140 degrees!

All pumps produce heat. So do lamps. I have a T-5 Array that gets above 180F, and I would bet dollars-to-donuts my halides are WAY hotter than that. But they don't make contact with my tank.

jnarowe · #**498** 12/21/2007, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by triggerfish1976
The fact that the sides are built out of 3/4" proves that it is underbuilt.
Cyro Industries has a acrylic thickness calculator that "recommends" more than 1.35" thick panels and this calculator does not take into consideration any other stresses. That is almost 2 x the thickness on this tank.

I don't understand how you filled that out. My tank is 33"h x 96" long by 60" deep and I don't see any way to enter the dimensions in accurately. Also the question regarding open or closed top is answered incorrectly. I do not have a closed top. The tank is open topped right? That form doesn't take into account the actual water volume.

So I get a tank wall thickness of 2" based on fillng that out. It looks to me that you changed the maximum pressure? So I don't understand how this equation matches my tank, nor how you got the 1.35" answer. Nor do I understand how it relates to my tank since we don't know that it is made with Acrylite GP.

jnarowe · #**499** 12/21/2007, 03:20 PM

Actually, I have looked at that a little more and figured out what you did. I don't understand how they can produce a formula that doesn't take into account total dimension though. Seems strange to me.

I will post my results soon.

sherm71tank · #**500** 12/21/2007, 03:21 PM

Hey Jonathan don't you know everyone has ESP? I'm off work now and ready to do some running around. Wanna go to the shark reef?