Low Calcium and chemical mystery question

[TropTrea]

Okay here is my situation:

I have been adding 1/2 tsp of Turbo Calcium to my system every night for the last 4 months and it had maintained a level of 420 ppm. Suddenly on my weekely calcium check it went down to 300 ppm. Since then I started dosing with 3 tsp per night. The resulting readings were.
Day 1 = 300 ppm
Day 2 = 300 ppm
Day 3 = 320 ppm
Day 4 = 360 ppm
day 5 = 320 ppm
day 6 = 280 ppm

Per some data I found on Turbo Calcium 1/8 tsp is suposed to raise the Calcium level 10 ppm in 50 gallons. Now if I apply this formula to my set up (310 gallons) each dosage should increase my calcium level by 38 ppm. But as you can see I'm not making any progress here and actually loosing ground.

Last night I upped the dosage to 4 tsp so I should see a rise of 51 ppm?

Now I know my system is using up some of this calcium. However I find it hard to understand why it suddenly could have jumped from using less than 4 ppm of calcium per day to over 38 ppm of calcium per day so suddenly. The corals have grown some but I would expect that change to be more gradual.

My other water perameters are Kh = 300 ppm and hoilding very steady without me having to add anything, but my pH had dropped from a previous 8.2 to 7.9 in the same period that my calcium level dropped.

The stability of the Kh is another mystery as if the corals are using up all that calcium why are they not using up the alkilinity. And if Alkilinity is holding steady why is pH dropping?

I'm hoping on a Kalk reactor for Xmas but now wondering it one would push my Alkilinity through the ceiling in order to keep up with my calcium needs?

Dennis.

[Peter Eichler]

If my math is correct your dKH is almost 17 which is probably causing your calcium to precipitate out. Do some water changes to bring down your KH levels to closer to 200ppm and then adjust your calcium using calcium chloride to be about 440ppm. This means on a 300 gallon system you're looking at adding, ready for this, about 105 teaspoons of Turbo Calcium. Your calcium should rise as well due to the water changes so it won't quite be that bad, but you're going to need a lot of calcium regardless. I'd suggest picking up some peladow, dowflake, or prestone driveway heat...

If you balance your calcium and alkalinity there's no reason a klak reactor would push your alkalinity through the roof. However, if you have a high demand system there's little chance kalkwasser will be able to maintain your alkalinity and calcium at proper levels unless you have super high evaporation levels.

On another note, what's your magnesium level?

[TropTrea]

Perhaps that is my key the high evaporation rate. Prior it was about 5 gallons per week, However the last two weeks when I started seeing the drop in Calcium it had gone up to around 6 gallons per day.

How do you get that 105 teaspoon of Turbo Calcium amount? From my data 1/8 tsp should raise raise 50 gallons by 10 ppm. so 105 tsp would raise 50 gallons by 8,400 ppm and when you divide that out to 310 gallons you get 1,354 ppm increase.

Regardless the calcium cloride (sidewalk deicer) does sound like a much more economical way to go.

Now if my Kh should be only at 200 ppm instead of 300 ppm wouldn't that mean my system should have to high of a pH rather than the pH dropping the last two weeks?

Dennis

Originally posted by Peter Eichler
If my math is correct your dKH is almost 17 which is probably causing your calcium to precipitate out. Do some water changes to bring down your KH levels to closer to 200ppm and then adjust your calcium using calcium chloride to be about 440ppm. This means on a 300 gallon system you're looking at adding, ready for this, about 105 teaspoons of Turbo Calcium. Your calcium should rise as well due to the water changes so it won't quite be that bad, but you're going to need a lot of calcium regardless. I'd suggest picking up some peladow, dowflake, or prestone driveway heat...

If you balance your calcium and alkalinity there's no reason a klak reactor would push your alkalinity through the roof. However, if you have a high demand system there's little chance kalkwasser will be able to maintain your alkalinity and calcium at proper levels unless you have super high evaporation levels.

On another note, what's your magnesium level?

[Gem Tang Rider]

Dennis,

I suspect your ALK test kit is inaccurate.

[johns]

Now if my Kh should be only at 200 ppm instead of 300 ppm wouldn't that mean my system should have to high of a pH rather than the pH dropping the last two weeks?

IF your alk is that high (and I agree with GTR - it may not be, but you should double-check), it doesn't necessarily mean that your pH will be too high. There can be a relationship between alk and pH, but not always. There many ways of adding or increasing Alk,without affecting pH.

[Peter Eichler]

Originally posted by TropTrea
Perhaps that is my key the high evaporation rate. Prior it was about 5 gallons per week, However the last two weeks when I started seeing the drop in Calcium it had gone up to around 6 gallons per day.

How do you get that 105 teaspoon of Turbo Calcium amount? From my data 1/8 tsp should raise raise 50 gallons by 10 ppm. so 105 tsp would raise 50 gallons by 8,400 ppm and when you divide that out to 310 gallons you get 1,354 ppm increase.

Regardless the calcium cloride (sidewalk deicer) does sound like a much more economical way to go.

Now if my Kh should be only at 200 ppm instead of 300 ppm wouldn't that mean my system should have to high of a pH rather than the pH dropping the last two weeks?

Dennis

Not sure where you're getting your data from but it should take 1 full teaspoon to raise calcium 10 ppm in 50 gallons. I use Peladow, which is the same dosage as Turbo Calcium and if I was wrong my calcium would have been through the roof a long time ago.

[TropTrea]

Okay I think the way I'll attack this initially is move up my dosage of TurboCalcium to 5 tspoons per day. Then if the numbers are all corect I will have slowly brough my calcium up to the proper level in about 21 days plus what has been additionaly used up in that time span.

Now for the Alkilinity since I cannot come up with any explaination for it high level I will think I'll the different different test kit route. Idealy I should probably get two other different brands of Alkilinity test kits and do a real comparison. (wonder if I get 3 completly different values).

Then as a side note it would not hurt to check my Calcium level various different test kits as well.

Dennis

[johns]

Dennis-

Those are fine ideas. But IMO, you are probably being overly-cautious in the time you are taking to raise the Ca levels up. You could probably add enough Ca to raise it up to where you want over the course of 3 or 4 days without any issues (jumps in Ca levels are definitely not as dangerous as jumps in Alk levels). Or go with a week if you are still worried about it.

But it probably wouldnt be a bad idea to first check your Ca levels with another test kit first to verify they are as low as you think, before starting to do something like this.

[TropTrea]

I am fairly confident that the calcium levels are correct. I have used the same kit for a while now. Upon initial set up if gave me a 410 ppm reading, and with the weeky and bi-weekly checks after that never gave me a reading under 400 or over 430. But there is always the possibility one of the chemicals went bad suddenly.

Now adding 105 tsp. plus one per day if I streech it out over

3 days = 36 tsp per day
5 days = 22 per day
7 days = 15 per day

Now if I recfall correctly adding calcium does have an effect on lowering the dKh simularly to adding alkilinity has a tendency to lower Calcium levels. I believe there is some chemical reaction between the two that happens here.

Therefore I prefer being cautions rather than finding my Calcium is now up there but my Alkilinity took a nose drop.

What brands of Calcium and dKh test kits does every use and they are happy with?

Dennis

Originally posted by johns
Dennis-

Those are fine ideas. But IMO, you are probably being overly-cautious in the time you are taking to raise the Ca levels up. You could probably add enough Ca to raise it up to where you want over the course of 3 or 4 days without any issues (jumps in Ca levels are definitely not as dangerous as jumps in Alk levels). Or go with a week if you are still worried about it.

But it probably wouldnt be a bad idea to first check your Ca levels with another test kit first to verify they are as low as you think, before starting to do something like this.

[Gem Tang Rider]

Originally posted by TropTrea

What brands of Calcium and dKh test kits does every use and they are happy with?

Dennis

Salifert

[hahnmeister]

Make sure if you get the Salifert Alk test, that its the newer one with the one large pink bottle, not the little green dropper that you test in 2 stages then with the larger clear bottle. The new one will have a 'reference solution' as well. My older Salifert was reading 6.4 dKH when it was really 8.3. no wonder my corals havent been so hot the past year and a half... I was keeping my alk up at 9, or so I thought... it was up near 12!

LaMotte, Seachem, and ELOS are other brands that people have found more reliable than the Salifert, but I think Salifert realized their quality was slipping and the new kits are very accurate.

[GrandeGixxer]

http://reef.diesyst.com/flashcalc/flashcalc.html

Here is a calculator that is very useful.

I use the Seachem test kits and I like them. They all come with a reference to check them against.

[Peter Eichler]

Originally posted by hahnmeister
Make sure if you get the Salifert Alk test, that its the newer one with the one large pink bottle, not the little green dropper that you test in 2 stages then with the larger clear bottle. The new one will have a 'reference solution' as well. My older Salifert was reading 6.4 dKH when it was really 8.3. no wonder my corals havent been so hot the past year and a half... I was keeping my alk up at 9, or so I thought... it was up near 12!

LaMotte, Seachem, and ELOS are other brands that people have found more reliable than the Salifert, but I think Salifert realized their quality was slipping and the new kits are very accurate.

Huh, I hadn't heard of a Salifert kit reading low. At least mine and the majority of kits were reading 2-3 dKH on the high side. I also think maintaining a dKH of 12 is better than 9 and I see no reason why it would have caused any stress to your corals. Years ago it was quite common to try to maintain levels in the upper teens and many of us did so with great success; and a lot of money spent on buffers Low KH on the other hand would be a problem.

As for what alkalinity test kit to get... Alkalinity/KH is an easy one. The cheap kits from Tetra, API, and Hagen will all be good. I've tested them against Lamotte kits several times and they are always rather close in accuracy. Also, I believe the Elos kit is exactly the same as the 3 I just mentioned, you're just paying for a name and some fancy packaging. Unless you're using Seachem buffers or salt (which I don't suggest) then get a Seachem test kit because I believe it's designed to work with the boron Seachem adds to their buffers.

For calcium I'd stick with Salifert.

I agree with Hahn that you can raise your calcium fairly quickly and not have any bad reactions. However, I'd suggest dripping it slowly in an area with a good amount of flow to lessen the chance of it precipitating.

Lastly, you never did tell us your magnesium levels. Depleted magnesium levels can make it very difficult to manage calcium and KH levels so before you dump a bunch of calcium in your system I'd make sure your Mg levels are where they should be.

[hahnmeister]

Ahhhh... thats interesting to know... for the longest time, I was using Seachem alkalinity buffers... Reef Builder and Reef Buffer.

Perhaps that was part of it as well. I kept thinking my alk was too low, so I kept pouring in buffer, and this might have screwed up my readings...lol.

But even now, on the Salifert, yes, the 'old' kit reads a 6.4, and the new kit says 8.3

As for calcium... not too bad. The kit doesnt seem to have changed, but my old one says 350, and the new kit says 390 ( I think I had to increase the output on the reactor a little to catch up).

My mg levels are sorta low... about 1200. Nothing alarming, but I do plan on adding those Mag Rocks (Fauna Marin and KZ make them) to my reactor to keep the Mg levels up. Otherwise, dosing Mg with liquid and dry gets pretty crazy.

My Alk/Ca levels are fine though... I just had to turn up the reactor a little to catch up with the corals. Since my levels have hit a 'sweet spot', my corals have all started growing like weeds and my Calcium has dipped under 400. I think my tank finished its last 'cycle', being up now for about 7 months. The DSB in the fuge has 'colored up' in the sand, algae all over is retreating (and my zoas still dont seem happy in this tank)... so well see.

[Peter Eichler]

Originally posted by hahnmeister
Ahhhh... thats interesting to know... for the longest time, I was using Seachem alkalinity buffers... Reef Builder and Reef Buffer.

Perhaps that was part of it as well. I kept thinking my alk was too low, so I kept pouring in buffer, and this might have screwed up my readings...lol.

But even now, on the Salifert, yes, the 'old' kit reads a 6.4, and the new kit says 8.3

As for calcium... not too bad. The kit doesnt seem to have changed, but my old one says 350, and the new kit says 390 ( I think I had to increase the output on the reactor a little to catch up).

My mg levels are sorta low... about 1200. Nothing alarming, but I do plan on adding those Mag Rocks (Fauna Marin and KZ make them) to my reactor to keep the Mg levels up. Otherwise, dosing Mg with liquid and dry gets pretty crazy.

My Alk/Ca levels are fine though... I just had to turn up the reactor a little to catch up with the corals. Since my levels have hit a 'sweet spot', my corals have all started growing like weeds and my Calcium has dipped under 400. I think my tank finished its last 'cycle', being up now for about 7 months. The DSB in the fuge has 'colored up' in the sand, algae all over is retreating (and my zoas still dont seem happy in this tank)... so well see.

Depending on how old your Salifert kit was I'd be more likely to trust the old one over the new one. I'd suggest to anyone using a Salifert KH kit to pick up an API kit or similar kit. It's so much easier to use and as long as you don't mind only being able to measure in 1 or .5 dKH increments they're great.

[hahnmeister]

Since going with the new kit, the polyp extension on my corals, as well as growth, has improved alot though. I do plan on getting an ELOS/LaMotte/Seachem to compare.

[johns]

Originally posted by hahnmeister
Since going with the new kit, the polyp extension on my corals, as well as growth, has improved alot though. I do plan on getting an ELOS/LaMotte/Seachem to compare.

hahn, what are you doing there? dosing the test kit bottles into your tank?

[hahnmeister]

Originally posted by johns
hahn, what are you doing there? dosing the test kit bottles into your tank?

What? Isnt that how you do it? I never bothered reading instructions, just dumped in the green/blue stuff until the tank turned blue... then added the other stuff until the whole tank turned pink...

[johns]

Originally posted by hahnmeister
What? Isnt that how you do it? I never bothered reading instructions, just dumped in the green/blue stuff until the tank turned blue... then added the other stuff until the whole tank turned pink...

Sorry. I couldnt resist. Something about the way you wrote that last post sounded funny to me.

[TropTrea]

Just a little update. After extensive reading here and elsewhere I decided to go with the 20 tsp of TurboCalcium per day with measuring ever 3 days. Dosage going into the system in the evening right after lights out, and measurements when I got home about 4 hours prior to dasing.

The first 3 days showed very little gain in the Calcium levels but a noticable drop in the Kh level. I took an addition reading last night and have noticed a slammer drop in Kh than I expected from the prior dosages but my Ca levels are starting to show some gain.

This is varifing what I had heard in several articals. When you add CaCl the Kh will drop, and when you add a buffer the Ca levels will drop.

I'm now up to 350 ppm on the Ca and the kH is in the 260ppm range. It looks like I'm going into the right direction with just the Turbo Calcium addition. However I may end up adding a buffer before I get to that 425 Ca level I want to maintain.

I';m now feeling safer that the Kalk reactor idea will work out for me with just an ocassional boast of Calcium to the system.

Dennis


Dennis

[steve414]

What are you adding for alk? baking soda

[steve414]

I found this on some test kits.
http://www.mbenassireef.com/?cat=17

[TropTrea]

So far I have not added anything for alkilinity.
To date my Ca is around 340 ppm and my alkilinity is still around 250ppm. As I gained 140 ppm on my calcium I did loose 60 ppm on my Alk.

I have read in pultiple places that this offsetting can be expected. However no one realy puts anything out that I have seen as far as a relationship between these offsets.

When the alk is down I'll probably start adding it in the form of baking soda untoill I get a Kalk reactor going. Then hopefully the Kalk reactor should take care of keeping the Calcium as well as the Alkilinity up. I do expect to have to do a little additional dosing of Calcium Cloride even with the Kalk reactor.

Dennis

Originally posted by steve414
What are you adding for alk? baking soda

[Packdog]

Sorry if I missed it, but have you tested your Magnesium levels ??

Often times see low Mag as a culpret when reefers have difficulty getting Ca levels to desired and somewhat stable numbers.

Just curius.

[three fish]

Dennis, I am going through a somewhat similiar problem. I have been dosing Turbo Calcium for a couple of weeks and I can't get CA past 330. I have a 72 gallon tank and I have poured in 8 tsp which is what the handy dandy calculator came up with and I am still at 330-340. I started a post in the Chemistry forum. The wierd thing is, my alkalinity has shot up to a high of 7.5 meq/L!! I have a very simple tank and the calcium is not being used up that quickly. I did my tests with a NEW Salifert Calcium test kit and a NEW Seachem PH/Alkalinity test kit. I have not added any buffers during the Turbo CA additions.

Long story short I have new test kits coming from different companies and I am checking my Magnesium levels.

Good luck! I hope we both find solutions to our chemistry issues.