Common Misconceptions In the Hobby

[virginiadiver69]

Well...all I can say is that I have been observing something different. I just can not believe that any life that may be eaten in the top layer is not present below.
Like I said...MY experience leads me to believe that this and a lot of other dogmatic, knee jerk advice is not always the case. It may be do to the fact that MY Goby is the only bottom feeder in a 125 gal tank. It may also be the fact that he eats like a pig when I feed the tank. Now maybe in a different situation your opinion would ring truer. Say a smaller, lighter fed, less established tank.
Way to often I see one "size fits all" advice given while forgetting that not all tanks behave alike. I know that there are some basic practices that MOST tank need to adhere to but...this is not one of them.

[Paul B]

2) I also would like to see pictures posted of people's tanks that are major advice givers in this thread. A picture is worth a thousand words and IMO as far as credibility in reefkeeping the best way to prove you have something valid to say. Pictures are lot easier to come up with and a lot more fun to look at anyway. I personally have to read to many papers and getting on RC is a way for me to get away from all that

In this hobby pictures are very misleading. I have seen some very beautiful tanks that I just stand back and say WOW until I realize that the tank has been set up for six months. You can make any tank look great for six months or a couple of years. Just buy a bunch of corals and position them nicely in a tank.
Most fish will even live for months with no food.
The true worth of a tank is longivity measured in years or tens of years.
If your fish are not living at least ten years and your corals are not growing and or reproducing you are failing at this endeavor.
I do not say this lightly. For years my tank thrived and looked (to me anyway) beautiful. I am having some problems now which means I am failing. But failing in this hobby anyway could be considered a good thing because we learn the most when we fail.
Don't get me wrong, my tank is still thriving and the fish are all healthy and breeding but the corals suffered a set back.
(I diden't find out why yet)
I don't take this as a setback, I find it interesting and since my tank is an experiment, anything that happens either good or bad is a rewarding experience that excites me.
I have no way to judge my tank because I know of no older tanks.
Maybe something happens to bacteria after so many years or maybe "Old Tank Syndrome kicks in after three decades
(A few months ago)

[fishdoc11]

Thanks for posting Paul B. Your tank is amazing both in it's longevity and simplicity. Sorry to hear you had a setback....hadn't heard about that.
You get the award for most "rules" broken and still successful as far as I'm concerned

Chris

[jerryz]

I think the exception is nematodes. Their repro rate in the wilds is very low. The same for their survival rate in most peoples tanks for most varieties. Harvesting has a very noticeable impact on them. Oh and live rock might the other area, but in general i agree with this statement. recently i was snokeling on the most amazing reef in about 3 - 5 feet of water in southern MX. large fan corals swaying in water you could stand up in. Care had to be take or you would be thrown into the rock by the waves. Now it was off the beaten path but even so, as my brother and I sat on beach taking a break we watched some people from a boat stand up and WALK across this reef about 50 yards offshore. The amount of destruction from that is unimaginable. Certsainly causing more destruction than a large amount of collecting would.

Originally posted by aninjaatemyshoe
"Reducing the demand for wild corals may help some, but it won't make a very big dent in the amount of corals being taken from the reef. As large as it has gotten, the live coral trade is still small compared to other uses for the reef such as construction. Regardless of the demand from the hobby, there will always be more demand for corals than supply and the collectors will always need jobs. To truly reduce the amount of corals being taken, economic alternatives to harvesting from the reef have to be offered and simply cutting our demand doesn't do that. Eco-tourism and responsible aquaculture are two possibilities."

[EvilE]

good read--thanks!!

[thejrc]

Originally posted by fishdoc11
My main point was that, just like what is being disputed, a good bit of what is written in this thread is also opinion. I agree that most of the "myths" being discounted are incorrect but some not so much and that's also just my opinion.

So in short IMO it would be good for anyone that's reading this that doesn't have a good understanding of what is being discussed to take a good bit of this with a grain of salt.

As far as references I don't have the time or energy to pick out every little part I disagree with, make a counter point and come up with a reference.....nor do I want to

I haven't seen anything you have written backed up with references Peter and I don't particularly expect to.

The only people I see backing up statements with relevant references regularly on this site are Greenbean and MCaxmaster and both of those guys are working on graduate degrees in the field and have ready access to them.

If you wanted to discuss domestic animal medicine maybe I could come up with something

FWIW IMO most science related to reefkeeping (not reefs in the wild) is what I call "hobbyist science" anyway and is typically fueled by a product/sponsor or the need to support a theory that someone's "expert" reputation relies upon with facts disputing that being ignored or somehow altered.

A couple of ways I think this thread could become more useful are:

1) To consolidate the list to make it easier for new reefers to make sense of what is being discussed....adding a disclaimer about opinions of course.

2) I also would like to see pictures posted of people's tanks that are major advice givers in this thread. A picture is worth a thousand words and IMO as far as credibility in reefkeeping the best way to prove you have something valid to say. Pictures are lot easier to come up with and a lot more fun to look at anyway. I personally have to read to many papers and getting on RC is a way for me to get away from all that

JMO, Chris

I can agree with all of these to a short degree, but also realize that not all of us have the resources to access many of these papers. And even authors of published works are proven wrong or prove themselves wrong from time to time.

The thing is, exploration of reefs and reefkeeping itself is quite new and you dont really see the expenditures and media boost around it like you would say NASA and space exploration. I spend several hours a week reading papers on my main interest (harpacticoid copepods) and bang my head against a brick I keep here in the garage each time when I come across the constant paper publishing sites that wont let me view them because I am not "academic".

If the academic population wasnt so high and mighty in many cases better information would be available and you might see more posts backed up by written studies, but from my experience as a hobbyist I am ignored at best. Perhaps the academics in your field of study are less snobbish but I personally have sent hundreds of emails to copepodologists around the world only to get nothing in response, since I am not a student nor do I have time to be one I dont have access to the drove of constantly published works through tools like springer without shelling out a small fortune. I simply do not have the resources. Yet I do spend quite a great deal of time finding references and reading as much as I can get my "hobbyist" hands on, and I am happy for what I can find, it allows me to try and duplicate experiments as well as gleam information about my own why's and what's. But until better references are available for less than the $500.00 pricetags I've been seeing.... I'm going to do it the guerilla way.

I've become a big fan of this thread and it's open communication, I'd like to keep it that way and not have people digging on each other over things such as this though. And I do agree it's covered a huge range of topics that could easily be separated. If one wanted to they could build an entire forum around just the contents of this thread. Thats not for me to decide. At this point (to address your grain of salt comment) I think we can all agree that this post has become centered around the more experienced and/or experimental hobbyists and perhaps it's not for new readers to delve into immediately anyways. Perhaps a disclaimer or something simple to point this out? Unfortunately google can be unforgiving and take someone direct to the post matching a query, it's up to the user to read the thread and discern context.

As far as tank pics, I have a flatworm experimentation tank (another one of my hobbyist studies) that I've turned into a macro display with a good lump of fuzzy mushrooms to brighten it up. It's not a healthy tank obviously but it looks great. Right now I am purposely keeping nutrients overly high and I can tell you that most mushrooms I've encountered are amazingly resilient. These are propagating like mad! I wouldnt dare put an organ pipe or a chunk of monti in there as it would be plain stupid... a picture of this tank would be stupid to use as a recommendation but nonetheless it looks like a clean and well maintained tank. Without seeing things close up it's hard to make real judgements that's for sure.

I highly agree with the consolidation/ split of this thread though, as it would allow those of us discussing to focus on the topic's we're most interested in as well! And keep the thoughts coming!

Just an opinion though, and we all know what opinions are like....

[fishdoc11]

thejrc,
Just to be clear I'm not the one asking for references
I know how hard they can be to get....impossible without the right subscription etc....
Chris

[capn_hylinur]

Originally posted by Paul B

If your fish are not living at least ten years and your corals are not growing and or reproducing you are failing at this endeavor.
I do not say this lightly. For years my tank thrived and looked (to me anyway) beautiful. I am having some problems now which means I am failing. But failing in this hobby anyway could be considered a good thing because we learn the most when we fail.


[/B]

as an educator for 40 yrs I disagree with this statement. We learn best when we are having a good time and enjoying it. Mind you I have had a few students--but certainly not the norm---that do the best under pressure and motivated by stress
Many become fruststrated in this hobby when they fail--or broke
stop enjoying it and leave it for something else that is fun for them.
A site like this is base on the premise that we learn by others mistakes. I am thankful that there is such a great group of "experinced people on this site that want to help new people so they don't make the same mistakes.
That gets back to the prefix mis -----mistake or misconception--its great to have a thread that "airs" either for debate.

If someone sets up a beautiful tank in 6 months---then they should be commended--because they have beat all the odds of "going slowly "
Maybe going slowly is a misconception----but I will be the first to say no--go slow-be more successful.

From what I have read on the concept of "old tank syndrome" it is simply caused by human error--we stop doing or lose sight of the need to do the things that became routine and gave us success--more time between water changes, not monitoring tank parameter as much etc etc

[fishdoc11]

Originally posted by capn_hylinur

From what I have read on the concept of "old tank syndrome" it is simply caused by human error--we stop doing or lose sight of the need to do the things that became routine and gave us success--more time between water changes, not monitoring tank parameter as much etc etc

Actually old tank syndrome is very often caused by the buildup of detritus in the substrate over years. Not always but that is fairly common.
I'm sure it could be caused by slacking off in tank maintenance as well...then again some people report noticable improvement when they "leave the tank alone". I've seen several posts where people didn't have as much time for the tank and couldn't believe how well it had done when they weren't as attentive as they once were.

Paul B's tank is 30 years old so I think we would have to call that "ancient tank syndrome"

FWIW, Chris

[capn_hylinur]

Originally posted by fishdoc11
thejrc,
Just to be clear I'm not the one asking for references
I know how hard they can be to get....impossible without the right subscription etc....
Chris

lets not lose sight of being academic to being well read

or being well experinced, or street smart to being academic.

I would consider myself academic and well read (others might disagree LOL) but I have little experince in salt water reefs.

If you read my signature "experience is the best teacher" I stand by that personally.
If you did a study of aquarium hobbyists I think you would find that successfull hobbyists consist more of blue collar ---electricians, plumbers, craftsmen, science teachers------rather then people with Phd's.

IMO--the best references would be:
able to communicate well in a non threatening non patronizing way.
thousands of posts that are actually informative--"good job" or would like more doesn't really cut it here
years and years of experience
years of mentoring with some of the greats in this hobby

IMO there isn't a moderator on this site that doesn't have all those qualifications
Don't get me wrong --I enjoy discussions and feel I can sift through things that I can buy into or not---so I think it is a waste of time questioning the qualifications of these guys
Lets get on with the discussion of misconceptions

[thejrc]

good point cap'n now on to the discussion at hand, with that PH drop you get in the evening do you have a lighted refugium or not? I've read several cases where running a refugium on opposite light cycle reduces this but I'm not quite sure how.

[fishdoc11]

Originally posted by thejrc
I've read several cases where running a refugium on opposite light cycle reduces this but I'm not quite sure how.

It only works IME if you have a large fuge and then not great. The premise behind it being the macro growing at night takes up CO2 and stabilizes the pH.
IME a kalk drip or dosing kalk some other way evenly throughout the day will keep pH very stable. FWIW you really don't have to keep your pH super stable. A swing of 0.4 or 0.5 is fine.


Chris

[fishdoc11]

Ok a couple of RC miconceptions:
1) Just because someone has thousands of posts don't assume they know what they are talking about.
2) Just because someone only has a few posts don't assume they don't know what they are talking about.

If you did a study of aquarium hobbyists I think you would find that successfull hobbyists consist more of blue collar ---electricians, plumbers, craftsmen, science teachers------rather then people with Phd's.

Reefers are actually the most diverse bunch I've ever been around. I see more engineers than anything locally but I have friends that are concrete layers, drillers, MD's, Phd's, water treatment plant supervisors everything. People with short hair, long hair, green hair, covered with tattoos, big, small...everthing. That's one thig that is so neat about it to me

Chris

[Sk8r]

May I add one Misconception? That acclimation is all about 'time.' Acclimate for an hour, etc., [during which time ph can be a real problem.]
Suggestion: set up your qt tank as close to what comes in from your favorite dealer as possible. Same salinity. Same ph. If the temp is moderately warmer it's not such a big deal as if it's colder.
Test the water of the incoming fish. If it matches in salinity, ph, and temp, put the poor critter into qt. Period. Other params are nice, but I've never lost a specimen where salinity and ph both matched and I got the critter into more water, dark, and quiet.
Just a suggestion.

[capn_hylinur]

Originally posted by fishdoc11
It only works IME if you have a large fuge and then not great. The premise behind it being the macro growing at night takes up CO2 and stabilizes the pH.
IME a kalk drip or dosing kalk some other way evenly throughout the day will keep pH very stable. FWIW you really don't have to keep your pH super stable. A swing of 0.4 or 0.5 is fine.


Chris

I do have a refugium --30 gal loaded with cheato--for the last week the light has been on 24/7 before that at night only---your right fishdoc--doesn't make a difference.

I am not concerned with the swing because it is minimal--just the downward spirial over a week from 8.1---7.9 ending up 7.6 to 7.8

I have tried opening doorrs windows etc at night as much as I can --its still hot out
It was suggested that I vent the small plastic air line from the skimmer outside--I am in the process of doing that
I realize the bottom line is working with messy kalk and drips etc--something my supplier has been talking me out of

the point is what is the harm in a bottom number in the 7.6 range
JB--who I have the greatest respect for--says I gotta move it up

this pattern has been going on all summer but my corals don't seem to be suffering (tank at 11 months)

[capn_hylinur]

Originally posted by fishdoc11
Ok a couple of RC miconceptions:
1) Just because someone has thousands of posts don't assume they know what they are talking about.
2) Just because someone only has a few posts don't assume they don't know what they are talking about.



Reefers are actually the most diverse bunch I've ever been around. I see more engineers than anything locally but I have friends that are concrete layers, drillers, MD's, Phd's, water treatment plant supervisors everything. People with short hair, long hair, green hair, covered with tattoos, big, small...everthing. That's one thig that is so neat about it to me

Chris

I hear you--- a have a very close friend who is a heating and ductwork guy and another who is a friend and my vet( I have three dogs)

I did not mean to take number of posts as a criteria----I meant number of posts that were constructive, not off the wall etc--that can be easy checked
I think it is a blend of experience and posting.

The more you post constructively though the better communicator you become---this gives people on this forum an edge over Phd's in chemistry and biology----any courses I took from them--lets put it this way--eh, huh??

[fishdoc11]

7.6 is a little low but if your tank is doing fine I wouldn't worry to much about it. It's best to treat the patient not the lab results
If you want to get it up kalk really isn't that scary. People have been using it to can and dispose of dead bodies for years

Misconception:

You have to understand all the technical and chemical mumbo jumbo to be a successful reefer.

Just not true. It helps to have a basic understanding but having a successful reef is really more of an art than a science IMO. Some people just have a "blue thumb".

Chris

[thejrc]

Originally posted by fishdoc11
It only works IME if you have a large fuge and then not great. The premise behind it being the macro growing at night takes up CO2 and stabilizes the pH.
IME a kalk drip or dosing kalk some other way evenly throughout the day will keep pH very stable. FWIW you really don't have to keep your pH super stable. A swing of 0.4 or 0.5 is fine.


Chris

ahh thats what I thought but I wasnt sure. I dont think the swings are as problematic as people make them out to be but it is interesting to see how many peices fit into it. I run my fuge on a 22 hour cycle with 2 off hours mid day when tank lights are on. From what I've noticed it hasnt done a thing for PH but has helped the growth of my macro and thus helps with nutrient transport. Then again I dont have an extremely large fuge, in fact it's almost undersized.

So the theory is to get something to consume the CO2 enough to stabilize PH during lights out I suppose

he he as far as where reefkeepers come from this is an interesting one to observe (seeing has how I had a club meet yesterday). The couple that got me to switch from brackish to reef do ironwork and etched glass.... my club is made up primarily of IT guys like myself, electricians, database consultants, and even a 14 year old batboy. I type this after reading an article in the 2007 marine fish and reef that illustrates the top 10 traits of good reefkeepers and it even puts a tilt on how many of us are from random walks of life. Keeps it interesting!

[capn_hylinur]

Originally posted by thejrc
ahh thats what I thought but I wasnt sure. I dont think the swings are as problematic as people make them out to be but it is interesting to see how many peices fit into it. I run my fuge on a 22 hour cycle with 2 off hours mid day when tank lights are on. From what I've noticed it hasnt done a thing for PH but has helped the growth of my macro and thus helps with nutrient transport. Then again I dont have an extremely large fuge, in fact it's almost undersized.

So the theory is to get something to consume the CO2 enough to stabilize PH during lights out I suppose

he he as far as where reefkeepers come from this is an interesting one to observe (seeing has how I had a club meet yesterday). The couple that got me to switch from brackish to reef do ironwork and etched glass.... my club is made up primarily of IT guys like myself, electricians, database consultants, and even a 14 year old batboy. I type this after reading an article in the 2007 marine fish and reef that illustrates the top 10 traits of good reefkeepers and it even puts a tilt on how many of us are from random walks of life. Keeps it interesting!

can you post a link for that article--sounds really interesting

[thejrc]

hmm dunno if it was online, I was at the petco 1$ per gallon sale and it was a total impulse buy while she scanned the random assortment of tanks I was picking up for my pods. I havent been able to find it online yet. was worth the ten bucks though, had an article on worms, an article on breeding seahorses (a little lacking but trimmed for the mag and it was still informative), and a slick article on fungiid plate corals (why I nabbed it). a plenum study and a fairly decent article on light. all in all a good read!

Fishdoc'll tell you though.... after immersing ones self in journal studies and papers on intricacies of things like taxonomy.... reading an over the counter mag in laymans terms is a great great gift! Was nice to understand something for once he he

[capn_hylinur]

Originally posted by fishdoc11
7.6 is a little low but if your tank is doing fine I wouldn't worry to much about it. It's best to treat the patient not the lab results
If you want to get it up kalk really isn't that scary. People have been using it to can and dispose of dead bodies for years

Misconception:

You have to understand all the technical and chemical mumbo jumbo to be a successful reefer.

Just not true. It helps to have a basic understanding but having a successful reef is really more of an art than a science IMO. Some people just have a "blue thumb".

Chris

depends what you mean by an art--finess yes but more then just having a pretty tank----a good knowledge of coral husbandry is very important.
IMO successful reefers have good basic science skills:
observation--number 1
inquistiveness
basic internet skills---eg using sites like these
labs skills---for mixing doses properly and using the test kits
mechanical skills in basic plumbing, and electrical
excellent manipulative skills

the may not be formally schooled in these but they exhibit the natural characteristics

[thejrc]

Originally posted by capn_hylinur
depends what you mean by an art--finess yes but more then just having a pretty tank----a good knowledge of coral husbandry is very important.
IMO successful reefers have good basic science skills:
observation--number 1
inquistiveness
basic internet skills---eg using sites like these
labs skills---for mixing doses properly and using the test kits
mechanical skills in basic plumbing, and electrical
excellent manipulative skills

the may not be formally schooled in these but they exhibit the natural characteristics

you forgot the most important....

spousal negotiation skills!

On a serious note though, most the people I run into have a mish mosh of these skills and rely on each other where one lacks. I'm not exactly a star when it comes to chemistry but I've got the interest and the want to learn and naturally I have several friends with the knack where I fall short.

It's the interest and the persistance... you can see the lack of persistance in the boards every day when you see the "selling everything" posts where the reason is almost always "dont have the time or interest anymore". Most times these were hobbyists who ran tanks for less than a year from what I've seen.

Once your hooked you pretty much stay that way, if your the right type of person!

[capn_hylinur]

Originally posted by thejrc
you forgot the most important....

spousal negotiation skills!

On a serious note though, most the people I run into have a mish mosh of these skills and rely on each other where one lacks. I'm not exactly a star when it comes to chemistry but I've got the interest and the want to learn and naturally I have several friends with the knack where I fall short.

It's the interest and the persistance... you can see the lack of persistance in the boards every day when you see the "selling everything" posts where the reason is almost always "dont have the time or interest anymore". Most times these were hobbyists who ran tanks for less than a year from what I've seen.

Once your hooked you pretty much stay that way, if your the right type of person!

you don't have to be an expert at that either----when you follow the golden rule or aquarium purchases

"everything costs 20 bucks"

except when it comes to the favorite coral they want--then its like that's a lot of money---so nice you care enough about my hobby.....

with the ones that give up---sometimes you wished they could have been a little more proactive on sites like Reef Central

[melev]

This thread has been nominated for Thread of the Month. You can vote for it in this poll:
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...readid=1193958

[Paul B]

as an educator for 40 yrs I disagree with this statement. We learn best when we are having a good time and enjoying it.

Capn, first of all I would like to thank you for being a teacher.
As for enjoying reefing. Since I have been doing it for over fifty years I guess I could say I enjoy it.
You are also correct about tradesmen having fish. I am an electrician.
I aquired my knowledge of reefs from diving on them since 1970.
I like hands on experience and all of the animals I have ever kept, I have dove with.
Another misconception is natural sea water. The main purpose of using it is not for the beneficail life which will probably die in our tanks in a few hours but the chemical make up which can not exactly be duplicated. Sea water changes with factors like pH and temp.
Have a great day.
Paul