High Nitrate Help

[Howieytown]

Has anyone tried any of these Nitrate sponges or Nitrate eliminator filter additives?
My 75 gallon system w/sump =90 gallons total has a high bioload (fish) and the Nitrates are usually around 60-80. I do 10 gallon water changes every week.
I checked today and the Nitrates are up to 100! and a couple of my corals look slightly wilted. With the fragswap coming up I want everything blooming so to speak.

I'm going to do a couple of more water changes and see if that help but I was wondering if I should try one of these filter additives like nitrate sponge or something in a canister filter to try and help lower them.
Do they work??????????????

Right now the system is just running a Fluval canister with carbon, a skimmer off of the sump, a deep sand bed in the sump and tank, tons of macros and even mangroves also in the sump.
Main tank has metal halides and actinics, sump is on a reverse light schedule.
The tank and sump have at least 100 lbs of live rock and at least 70 lbs of live sand.
I have always had the nitrates around 60 with all the fish and everything I have growing seems ok but this higher spike has me worried that some of the corals are not happy, mainly the torch, hammer and frogspwan seem withdrawn.
The calcium is also high but all other tests are right on normal.

Besides moving fish out any other ideas?

[lawdog]

No way Nitrates should be that high.... Something else is wrong. What kind of skimmer are you running? Where do you get your water from? Have you checked it with a TDS meter? I don't care how many fish you have, if you are running a true DSB with macro and mangroves and skimming and doing water changes you should have no way near that high of nitrates.

What type of test kit are you using? Is it expired? I would get a new Salifert Nitrate test kit and test your tank... test your top off water and test your fresh salt mixed water. Also what are you storing the water in... You need to find the source of the nitrates and eliminate that sponges are only a temporary fix something just doesn't sound right to me.

I have a high bio load as well with BB tank and tons of flow and a big skimmer, I change about 30 gallons every other month and I have zeros across the board on my water tests.

[no1tiger2001]

what flow do u have in the tank, type of skimmer what fish and there sizes theres alot of variables

[Howieytown]

Berlin turbo skimmer, my return pump is a Mag 7 (500gph at 3')

I have a Quiet one 3000 (780gph) hooked up to a SCWD wavemaker with returns on each end of the tank.

My water is well water, run through a softner system with a deionizer as well, then its run thru a RO unit last.

I am using Aquarium Pharm Inc (API) test kit, brand new and I'm storing the top off and salt mixed water in new plastic 5 gal buckets never used for anything else.

The livestock list;
one 4" Neon Velet Damsel
one 3" Scopus Tang
one 1 1/2" blue damsel
two tiny blue w/yellow damsels
one 1 1/2" 4 striped damsel
one 1 1/2" flame angel
one 3" dusky jawfish
one coral banded shrimp and one peppermint shrimp, crocea clam

No TDS meter, there is a good two inches of sand in the entire tank and three inches in that area of the sump. The skimmer has a new turbo motor and seems be be skimming well, not as good as when it was all new but good. I am currently running that fluval canister filter for two weeks now with activated carbon and Kent marines Nitrate sponge. Now they say the nitrates will rise some when you first run it and then they will go down but 100?!

thanks for any help ahead of time~

[lawdog]

You need to find the source of nitrates. I don't think 5 small fish and 3 medium size fish is that overstocked for a 90 gallon setup... no way IMHO are the fish causing your nitrates. How long has the tank been set up for? did you ever go through a complete cycle?

That clam might need to find a temporary home as those nitrates will definately take him out. Get a TDS meter they are only like 10-15 bucks and test your water sources. When did you change your filters on your RODI last? I would get a new test kit Salifert would be my preference and test, test, test.... with the TDS and nitrate test kits.

You also might want to get that flow up a bit.... I would add a tunze or two in tank (new nanos are nice). Your nitrates on a well established reef tank should be zero - 5 tops.

I see you have a 37 gallon seahorse tank as well... are you having similar problems with nitrates in that tank? If not what are you doing differently?

Nitrate sponges are not the answer IMO. Something is leaching nitrates in the tank you need to find out what it is...

[offshore]

I went through the same thing a 6 monthes ago, I was doing 30 to 40 gallons per week water changes and could not get my nitrates below 40 on my 90 gal tank, I finally had enough of it. I removed my deep sand bed and they dropped to 10 on next water change and have been there ever since. I know deep sandbeds are supposed to remove high nitrates, but it didnt work for me. I put up with it for over a year. maybe my sand bed was not healthy , but I did start with carib sea live sand. I added tlc bacteria and still seen no changes till I removed the sandbed and now only have an inch or less in my tank and have been happy since. only my sucess story, opinions may vary. Ken

[lawdog]

The DSB could definately be a nutrient sink that is storing nitrates. Do you have alot of fauna in it to stir it up and keep it clean? Bristle worms, mini stars, hertmits, nassarius, spaghetti worms, cukes, fighting conchs???? anything like that.

Do you run filter socks or anything else that could be trapping nutrients? Bio Balls?

I yanked my DSB after 3.5 years when things started going down hill for my SPS tank and I was moving so it was perfect timing. When I yanked the sand bed you would not believe all the "crude" that was in that sand and I had a ton of life living in it. The problem is even with a lot of life the nitrates eventually start to leach back into your system. I have BB now and love the cleanliness of the tank as well as the ability to add as much flow as I can and not have to worry about blowing sand everywhere.

What kind of sand is it and how old is it? You may want to think about replacing it or yank it... I would yank it myself... but some people gotta have the sand.

[sabalough]

a properly functioning dsb converts nitrates into nitrogen gas it dose not store them.


ps. I am not trying to start a dsb debate.

[sabalough]

check your new salt water for nitrates, nitrites and amonia it is your most probable sourse

[lawdog]

Originally posted by sabalough
a properly functioning dsb converts nitrates into nitrogen gas it dose not store them.

So that would mean that a failed DSB or improperly functioning dsb could be leaching nitrates back into the system because it cannot convert them.... thus creating a nutrient trap. He only has a 2-3 inch sand bed not deep enough imo to be a true functioning dsb. I don't want to start a dsb thread either but the fact is that sand beds can and do fail and leach nutrients/nitrates back into the system.

Like I said in the other posts I would test test and test every source of water, rodi, newly mixed salt, etc... and see what you find. Get yourself a salifert test kit.

Just trying to help the guy out and point him in a direction he might not have been looking.

[Howieytown]

Ok first of all thanks for the replies!
My RO water tests 0 nitrates. I used the new salt mixed water before I could test it :-(
Second I have no bioballs but i did have a filter bag with carbon and some other additives in it right where the return line empties into the sump. And two mesh screens in the overflow, however this gets changed or cleaned at least once a month.

The live sand is a combination of store bought that was active/live and in their tanks, home grown from a couple different established systems and a couple of bags of new live sand, carib or something.
This system is over two years old. Some of the sand (30lbs) is from my first tank and probably four years old. I have plenty of Nassirius snails and baby starfish, cleaning crews etc.
This is the same sand that is in my Seahorse tank which is a 37 gal, also has about 2" in the bottom with 55 lbs of rock. CPR backpack skimmer and CPR hang on Refugium, the nitrates here tests ZERO!
I should add that there is so much Kelp and Macro growing in the Seahorse tank I will be bringing a cooler full of it to the swap!
This tanks DSB does NOT get disturbed at all, in my 75 there is a couple fish that are diggers, the Jawfish, but he stays in one small area and the BLue Damsel digs up her spot quiet often, several times a day.
I always figured this was part of the reason the Gorgonian by her area is so heathy....also thought that maybe this disturbance could be releasing the Nitrates back into the water? From what I have gathered the DSB has to keep oxygen from entering the working layer? But I always figured that that small area wouldnt hurt anything.
Anyways I just did another water change and removed my one filter bag on the return, cleaned both screens on the overflow. I will test again tomorrow and see if it dropped any, also going to order a salifert nitrate test kit.
The 75 setup has always had 40 to 60 Nitrates, so far I've had really good growth on many corals, a few not so good and an occasional death of new additions. This tank went thru a long cycle process in the beginning that went with textbook accuracy.

Only thing I'm wondering about (without starting a DSB debate) is maybe the DSB should stay in the sump where it doesnt get disturbed and reducing the main tanks sand? I couldnt go BB though as we love the Jawfish, at least save his area.

[sabalough]

For some reason your sb is not working I've had sucess with ssb Like yours. either it is not working or it cant keep up. I have a jaw fish in my dsb and it is fine. is it posible something is dead up in the rock work fouling the water? do you feed hevily ?

[aninjaatemyshoe]

You meantioned earlier that you run a canister filter. Is there a sponge in there? If so, how often do you clean it?

Honestly, with the amount of live rock you have, a "nitrate sponge" will do absolutely nothing for you. All it is basically is an artificial live rock (uses pores to create an anearobic area for denitrification). What I'm thinking could be your problem is that you have a sponge in your canister filter that is doing a large portion of the nitrification. Denitrification seems to happen most efficiently when it occurs near the same surface of nitrification. A sponge, or bioballs, or any high surface area/non-porous media can be a "nitrate factory" because they are very efficient at nitrification but completely useless when it comes to denitrification.

This is all assuming you have a sponge in your canister filter. If you don't have anything like that causing your problem, then I'm not really sure.

[Howieytown]

The sponge in the cannister was replaced about a week ago along with the media i was using, which was carbon and nitrate sponge.
I replaced the carbon with new carbon and replaced the nitrate sponge (kent brand) with Nitrex. According to the sales pitch it only takes a couple of days to knock down the nitrates instead of weeks like the nitrate sponge.
Maybe this NITREX has spiked my system?

I would really hate to suck out all that sand, theres so much life in it. The biggest fish in there needs a new home anyways as he keep knocking over corals and rock that I move. Thats one waste maker and the biggest that if i catch him he will be moved to a new home. Then I am going to do a large water change this weekend. Maybe I'll replace all the media in the cannister filter with live rock rubble while I'm at it and go all natural again.

This tank has always had high nitrates 40-60 but I know I've only lost a couple of corals. Not sure if removing the sand will work but its possble, maybe to setup a smaller tank with it so i dont loose all that life. Thats about what I have planned and I'll post after i do a test when finnished.
thanks again for all the help

[Howieytown]

Well before I did anything drastic I went shopping for a new test kit. Could not find a salifert in town so I bought a Fastest kit.

it reads my Nitrates are only 20 not 100

Could these API drop style tests be that far off??????????????

The Fastest kit uses a chemical packet that you mix with your sample water, wait 3 minutes.
Is this much more accurate than adding ten drops of #1 solution, ten drops of #2 and shaking waiting five minutes?

I've been using these API kits since the get-go, maybe thats why i THOUGHT i always had high nitrates!?!?

If I get time this weekend I might make take a sample to my LFS and have them give it a test also. I was just about to do about a 1/3 water change and suck out alot of my sand bed. I'll hate to loose all the life thats growing in that sand and even thought about using an old tank and keep it alive for a while.......
But you know how that goes, if the water in that tank tests ok I'll end up putting a new fish in it or something!
I cant wait until summer gets here so I can go sailing and leave these cabin fever hobbies take care of themselves! (not really by themselves)

[lawdog]

Sounds like a new test kit was part of the problem... They do expire also so it is always good to check your tests every once in awhile. I would still get a Salifert kit. Order it online from salty critter if you can't drive there you will get it in one day. Most accurate test kit around. And yes the tests can be that far off.