Who was in the wrong?

[ROBERLEA]

sorry about being harsh its the nature of the beast im afraid
but i have run my own company for 18 years i know the strains of
outgoings but to sell or advise people wrongly is short sighted
and harmfull to all future sales as well as destroying what could be someones hobby for life
that person could find a cure for ick a new way to propogate corals or even how to breed corals in captivaty
sorry if these people are selling because they need the money
maybe if they had given the right advise and sold sensibly
then maybe they would have a lot more customers because most the fish and most of their corals would have lived and the stigma that marine is hard to keep would be vanquished for good
to befriend a customer and sell him what he can`t possibly keep alive isn`t right no matter how much money is involved surley theres more mileage in giving him the right advise in the first place

[Mud Shrimp Moe]

Originally posted by ROBERLEA
how would you feel if you went to you local electical retailer come out with a new dvd player but didn`t have a tv to play it on
would that be OK because they need your money

I wasn't trying to justify the giving of bad advice. I was just trying to point out that I don't think any of these LFS's start out with the idea of selling animals to people that will kill them. It just kind of happens because they don't always get the most expert employees and the "business" part of the "fish store business" starts to take over.

[ROBERLEA]

hi i can live with that it takes a lot of self disapline to run your own company and stick to your objectives
but the sad part is that this mis-selling goes on with the destuctive nature of these animals for profit and greed
my sugestions are if they knew they was being graded via a site such as this or even a good national mag
these retailers would have to raise thier game
i have 5 retailers around my local area and i could not recomend a single one the nearest one i could recomend is 17 miles away
i still frequent local stores so that i may able to point people in the right direction
to walk into a local retailer and see either partly bleached or heaverly browned corals offered for sale you know these people aren`t doing them selves or the hobby any good especialy when their show tank is always stocked with fresh colourfull corals
one week and offered for sale two weeks later browned or bleached or worse turned so that you can`t see the bleached part
this is an area i fell very strongly about and like i said before it makes my blood boil ! to to see normal people used as piggy banks
or fianacial props for some ones failed business plan
i feel there are some retailers better suited to raising shooting game as there seems to be a thin line between the two
this post is niether a direct attack or refection on retailers as a whole just my own findings localy but does seem to be more wide spread

____________________________________________________

i remember films when the good guy used to win

[AquaticFins]

Just a thought...

If the employee was willing to blatently lie to a prospective customer, what sort of spin do you think he put on this episode when he told his boss?

I would at least have a conversation with the owner and explain to him what prompted the arguement.

Yes, your actions could be blamed for the loss of at least one sale (I'm sure this incident left a bit of an impression on the rest of the customers in the store at the time)...but there are lessons to be learned here on both sides of the table.

Perhaps you could have stated your position to the customer along the lines of "I had a couple of those once - they didn't do so well for me" and used that as a springboard instead of saying that "it would definately die in their tank." The way you put things makes a world of difference, especially in such a sensitive situation.

It's worth a 'phone call.

[haid]

AquaticFins,

Thats a good point. It is hard to tell what was said to the owner. Maybe I will let it die down awhile and make the call. There were no other Customers in the store at the time. Maybe I should of been more delicate with the whole situation. Not something Im always the best at. I did try to wait until the employee left to tell them as to not cause the employee embarrassment. I admit I lost it some when She told me that they had never had a Customer lose one. Wow. Anyway I agree I probably should have just walked out after the confrontation. I had already told the Customers what I wanted. It just upset me.

[YoHo]

I agree with AquaticFins,
There is no telling what story the Owner got.

I realize hindsight is twenty twenty, but in situations like that, I think it's best to confront the owner with the issue. Things may have fallen out the same either way, but at least then you've presented your case to the person that matters.

[ROBERLEA]

i think the passion you show towards the issue is the same that any resposable experianced reef keeper should show maybe explain to the owner had a national mag be doing a piece on shops in the area -which thay do he could have been a black listed shop as far a free advertising or recomendation
which could damage his business far more than selling someone something thay could only keep after many years in the hobby
if that dont work GIVE ME HIS ADDRESS AN I`LL KILL HIM FOR FREE LOL

[Bill3H]

I was pretty shocked when I read you were banned. Seems like there would be a better way. For the employee to get in your face about it is just silly. Whatever happened to common courtesy?

I have to agree with those people who say you really dont know what story the owner got. Obviously he never got a chance to hear your side. If it was someone you didn't know I would say who cares ill shop somewhere else.

However, seeing as how you knew the guy I would suggest giving him a call to talk about it. Explain what you did and why you did it see what he says. Perhaps you can find some middle ground. If not thats the end of it, but its worth a shot.

[otisbrown]

Maybe you could have approached it in a different manor. Rather than saying it will not survive and have a high mortality rate, you could have encourage them to do research on the interenet or at the library before buying any livestock for thier tank. You could have pointed them in the right direction and told them to ask on reef central :-D

I can understand why the owner was mad, loosing buisness and all. In the end the Goni will most likely die... what is the difference to you where it dies?

The way I see it, everyone was wrong in this situation. I think you did an honarble thing with good intentions that led to a bad ending.
my 2C

[MartinH]

I applaud your speaking up. We need to "educate" the LFS's to support the hobby the way we do, and let them know that we will not spend our money with an irresponsible vendor.

My cynical yet humble opinion is that it is doubtful the owner (and certainly the employee) really took to heart what you said. So the effect is that they lost a couple of customers. But they probably didn't learn anything, and probably won't change what they do (attitude is "someone else will buy it").

For that matter, would those customers just drive up to another LFS and make an equally uninformed purchase? Hypothetically speaking, then it makes sense to balance the approach and foster education, so then Dgen's approach maybe accomplishes more...i.e. the LFS still loses the business, and the customer learns something, and makes a better choice.

[km133688]

This clearly bothers you. But write a letter. In writing everything carrys more weight.

Noone can blame you for correcting someone who was lying. It was simpy that your delivery sucked (we all make that mistake).

As for your wife, tell her it really bothers you and although you are sorry for messing up her relationship with the store owner's wife, and that you could have handled the situation a little more delicately, you are non the less "dissapointed" in her because she doesn't see the real issue. Don't yell, maintain a cool voice and put it back on her where it belongs.

Then get your pillow, blanky, and a hot water bottle and set it up all on the couch cause you won't be getting any tonight.

If she has feelings, you'll get an appology in a couple of days. If not, well, at least she knows your a man of your convictions.

Good luck.

[romunov]

Ok, I don't feel like reading the whole thread, and I'm sure I'll burn in Guantanamo, but here are my two cents.

Ok, to give the crudest example. Since you "know" the owner, and he just called you're banned and hung up. Well, he only probably heard one side of the story. Being out of the box ignorant like that, he deserves to lose customers.

People who call you a liar and say there is nothing to debate about a subject, are usually hiding something and lying.

[Loralie]

You definatly did the right thing. I like you have seen this time and time again with even the "reputable" stores. What they seem to forget is that the best advertising will never counter the worst word of mouth! They, in effort to make a living have forgotten that the product that provides them with this "living" is in fact "LIVING". I also have a large parrot that I acquired from a parrot rescue society and he seen first hand what suffering certain animals go through before their demise, because of "expert advice" of local pet shops. I researched for over 2 years before adopting my parrot and over a year before setting up my tank. I my opinion to lie to a potential customer about care and requirments of maintenence of the animal to sell it and make a buck is no different than a jeweler selling cut glass as diamonds. It is unethical and should be corrected

[BrianPlankis]

You did the right thing, you in all likelihood saved the life of that animal and the couple a depressing experience.

It boggles my mine that LFS do this type of thing everywhere(not all do it, but some do everywhere). It seems to me that the LFS that are not as reputable by selling whatever customers want would set up a self-defeating cycle.

Customer A comes in and buys a $70 goni that dies 1 week later because the tank isn't cycled. Customer A returns and buys another $70 coral that dies 1 week later, on bad advice again from LFS. (Instead of LFS saying wait until cycle is over and come back). Customer A gets advice from knowledgable friend or online and realizes that LFS was just trying to make a buck and wasted them money. Customer A later runs into Customer B and C that have never been to the LFS in question. Customer A then tells B and C to never go there, they give bad advice and waste life. Customer A also posts online about said LFS and they start to get a bad rap online. This slowly reduces their customer base making them even more dependant on the "quick" sale to keep their store open.

Customer A should have been given good advice to wait and then later they will refer B and C to the store for good advice and people that care. This would grow their customer base and reputation. Customers A, B and C all back up the LFS online in any case of a angry customer.

I for one will speak up whenever I hear bad advice being given(trying to be as tactful as possible) in a LFS. I try to establish a rapport with the main SW guy at each LFS and try to figure out their level of knowledge and willingness to avoid the "quick" sale. I don't base my opinion on one visit, but if several are bad, I have no problem letting everyone I know about the experiences I have there and will steer any newbies to the good LFS.

[BMink]

I think you did the right thing too. I had a terrible experience with my LFS when I first started too. However I don't want to hijack your thread with that story so maybe some other time.

In any case I just wish someone with your knowledge would have been there to save me the pain I went through and not to mention the money.

Good for you.

[ByteStalker]

You did the correct thing. The LFS owner is no different then many small business owners. He doesn't know how to build a customer base and acts like a used car salesman. They don't make it and go out of business. They say they never lost a goni, because no customer ever complained. True, he lost a customer when it died and they never went back! I hope he sells more than fish, like lots of dog food and supplies. His business will just die out otherwise.

I used to teach LFS owners to invite newbees to a seminar on how to setup a tank, what fish to keep, what equipment, ... Those owners made a fortune and didn't have to resort to sell at all costs. They know when you tell the new customer, "other shops are going try and sell you, don't believe them because .... " They then hand them a pamplet on, "Your first month in this new hobby, what you should know". They generally ended up with a lot of customers and custom livestock orders and the customer base grows. You don't have to lie to make a sale.

[GreshamH]

He'd probably lost the customer after the goni died on him anyways like Byte just said. Turn and burn is no way to do business. You did the right thing. hopefully your wife will "get over it"

[RamPuppy]

for what it's worth, I think you did the right thing. And I also think you are being responsible keeping the name of the store to yourself until (at least) the situation is fully and finally resolved one way or another.

There are a couple LFS's in my fish store that I simply don't visit anymore, their standards and practices simply aren't high enough for me, or they are rude and see me as nothing but a wallet with legs.

I am lucky enough though, to have a dream LFS near me, the owners took the time to get to know me by name, they are sponsors of our local marine aquarium society, and I would wager that they could recite to you every major inhabitant of my tank. They Quarantine for 2 weeks, buy special equipment for medication (for instance a instrument to measure copper levels so they can get the exact right amount for treating copper banded butterflies). They do not order (that they know of) from cianide collectors, nor do they EVER stock species that are known to have a high mortality rate (such as linkia's and so on.) If you want it, they will order it for you, but make sure you know what your getting into. every time I have acted against their advice I have burned myself. I simply don't go anywhere else, and I truly wish EVERYONE had a fish store like this in their home town.

[redpyro]

Ok i will start by saying i didnt read everyones post, i have ragin ADD roght now, but i get the jist of whats going on here....now livingin the middle of a corn field we have no lfs. so we have to drive 30 minutes minimum and have learned over the years they will try to sell you anything. They don't care. They want money. Im just glad we found Gerbers a fish warehouse and they will tell you stright up. I think they know that i may not spend that $50 on something i will kill because i am going to spend that $50 on something else in the store. So i appreciate that. Being a teacher i see what society is coming to. People are raising their kids in ways you would not believe. No common sence, no sence of doing whats right.

[Shoestring Reefer]

You did right by someone, and you helped out someone getting lyed to and ripped off.

If a LFS needs to make more $ they can sell dog food and bird seed and become a LPS, just like almost every place I've been to.

The best LPS in my area is actually an independent pet store with an owner who is into reefing, and a few employees who are honest and also into reefing. They make their own frags in frag tanks, usually have a few captive-bred fish, and host a reef club meeting now and then. They give honest advice on stuff like mandarins, lighting for corals, overstocking, compatability, etc. It's very common for them to ask customers what they have for a tank and what's in it, instead of just bagging up fish and corals. And, THEY SELL PUPPIES AND BIRDSEED! They take pretty good care of the puppies and other animals, but my point is they don't have to sell something that's going to die in your tank so they can make a buck. There are local reefers that will drive a fairly long ways to shop there, they have a great reputation amoung local reefers, and they get a lot of repeat business.

Another very good place (a bit further away than my favorite) was a LFS but started selling puppies, to make money. There are other ways to make money, ripping people off is really, really not necessary.

If someone wants to stick to fish out of pride, they shouldn't be proud of lying either. If they don't give a crap or their place is too small or they can't compete with the bigger guys or the local economy just sucks, then that's just gonna be one less LFS.

We've got over 250 million people here in the USA. That doesn't mean we can start up 250 million small businesses and everyone can start lying and trying to rip each other off, and it's ok because it's a small business.

[2004jeepoutlander]

u did right. i think that lfs that are honest can do the best and people are more true to that store. jmho

[JHReef]

You had your heart in the right place. Maybe your should try and explain your side to the owner. I think you had his best interests in mind too. I had a new LFS sell me a goniapora to go in my 20 w/ NO lighting years ago when I started getting more serious about going full reef.

About a year or so back, I saw one of his employees trying to sell another goni to someone who had just set up their tank. Luckily they had second thoughts about it and left. I came back a couple days later and talked with the owner when it was quiet. I explained my disappointment with him for selling me an animal that would have probably done better (although mine lived for 1.5 yrs) if I had the right lighting. I then explained what I saw the previous weekend. I told him that he should consider himself lucky that I forgave him for selling me the wrong animal because I knew his shop was new, and needed to sell. But others who get the same treatment may not be so forgiving, and he should consider that. He was quiet for a minute or 2 as he mulled what I said over and replied: "yeah, I've had some turnover lately and I just haven't had the time to give them all the proper training, but you're right, reputation is important". Since then, I have noticed that his employees don't change as often, and they give good advice.
I'm not taking credit here, but sometimes a business person needs to hear from their customers sometimes, whether the info. is positive or negative.

[lmk222]

shappy- thanks for giving the Goni a chance to live. It would have died in a 2 week old tank.

[Iphis]

Mmm, its definately wrong to tell new reef-keepers that something that difficult is easy to keep without killing them.

However, I would have simply advised the couple to research every purchase before buying.

Basically, all that you did was inform them that the particular animal involved is hard to keep, and possibly caused them not to shop at the store again.

You have burned your bridge with the store.

The couple may very well go to another LFS and get told the exact same thing about another animal, like a nice Achillies tang in their new 10 gallon being a smart thing.

They won't know any better, and they probably won't have someone brave, or who cares enough to speak up to them about it watching over them.

While I believe you were doing what you thought was right, a better outcome might have been just to politely inform the couple that they should research everything before they buy.

If they wanted to go ahead and spend some large amount of money on something that is not going to last for more then two weeks, its unfortunate, but they will learn the lesson either way.

I would have also told the owner you were friends with about what the employee was telling these people. Who knows what the employee told the owner to have him tell you not to come again. He could have very easily lied again and stated some wild exaggeration.

I commend you on looking out for other people, it was noble of you. The way it was executed may have been done a little better to educate the couple more, and keep your relationship with the LFS.

Anyway, no big deal I hope, you seem to have other regular LFS's. Hope the wife thing smooths over.

I generally suggest caving (kidding)

Iphis

[mhummel]

I'm still pretty new to this hobby but learning more everyday. I have a fowlr set up for a year now, and visiting sites like this for a year before even beginning this hobby. Last weekend i was at the lfs checking out, a family of four were in front of us. They had a large container of salt, 4 lr's and about 6 bags of fish. All I could think of was if this guy is setting up a new tank he has done no research and if he does have a tank set up HOLY AMM SPIKE. And the family behind us had a 10 gal tank and a cart full of fish. Poor fish . I guess what i'm saying is thanks for helping out the little guy even though it means that you can't go bak there again. Not much of a loss i'd say. Good job. I know if I took all the advice of the lfs i would have killed more fish. Thank to all of you posting on sites like these to help out others thinking of getting started in the great hobby.