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#51
08/28/2007, 12:12 PM
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Hypocricy
let's be pragmatic...
The marine ornamental trade is - in essence - a for-profit exploitation of a priceless natural resource to feed the superficial whims of consumer masses. We should not fool ourselves into thinking there is anything 'good' about this trade from the perspective of natural habitats. Education is not a justifiable excuse for supporting the trade. There are plenty of less destructive sources of awareness like public aquariums, documentaries on television, etc. Businesses involved in the trade are there for profit, not ethics. At the end of the day, business owners will exploit reef life to pay the rent, period. Many of them have to live in denial because they might have difficulty looking in the mirror if they chose to face the inconvenient realities of their chosen profession. No amount of denial, deception, or misinformation changes this reality. we are all hypocrites by merely participating and supporting the marine ornamental trade. Humans often claim to cherish or value things when in reality they wish to possess and consequently exploit. The very least we can do is show our peers and the businesses we frequent that trade reform and sustainability are a high priority. If the number of animals killed by this trade was an instantly updated number on the internet(that's an idea) we would all have trouble looking in the mirror and talking about the next fish or coral we can't wait to consume. I myself have killed countless animals since my first salt water tank was set up in 1983. In 2005 I experienced a shift in perspective that has lead me to step back. I have not bought any reef life in a few years now, and cannot see doing so until I find a way to do it more responsibly, and in a way that gives back to the natural habitats we claim to cherish but obviously exploit. Conservation and sustainability should be much more prominent subjects. Wouldn't it be better if your LFS was honest about its impact and chose to devote a portion of profits directly towards reef conservation efforts? Every time you hit that checkout counter at the LFS or the checkout page on the internet, remind yourself of the uncomfortable realities of your behavior. |
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#53
08/28/2007, 02:00 PM
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Again, don't think for one second that the LFS's don't know this and take advantage of it. The vast majority of hobbyists dive in too deep too fast, kill plenty of reef life, then leave the hobby when lifestyle changes make it inconvenient. The LFS profits from the cycle, and the reefs suffer. It's extremely unfortunate that online resources and self-education is not promoted by most LFS's. Unfortunately an educated consumer is harder to profit from...imo every checkout counter should have a sign posted that points customers to online education resources, and every purchase should include a flier (printed on recycled paper with soy-based ink) that does the same.
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Our participation in the marine ornamental trade inherently makes us hypocrites. The least we can do is promote trade reform. Pressure your peers and LFS's to make it a priority. |
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#54
08/28/2007, 02:01 PM
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anyone interested in some insight into trade reform and related topics should check out the RDO forum.
http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewforu...2549b3808e0333
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Our participation in the marine ornamental trade inherently makes us hypocrites. The least we can do is promote trade reform. Pressure your peers and LFS's to make it a priority. |
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#56
09/21/2007, 11:10 AM
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I live on the Rock river about 8 miles from where it pours into the Mississippi.I have been a trapper,hunter,and sport fisherman since i was 8 years old.When i was 21 i moved to the Florida Keys and returned to the house i grew up in when i was 25 (4 years later).While i was in the Keys i became addicted to the reef.I became a certified diver.I then started working part time for a commercial fisherman who lived across the road.One day I dived up 450 lobsters!I became very good at it. Over the 4 years that i was there i seen the rapid disapperence of live corals that were close to shore.
Here in IL with its mass agricultar and the diking off of the rivers on top of the commercial use of the rivers(cooling Nuke plants exc.)I can say that the pollution is caused by the population of people combined with greed,politics,and the i dont care i dont live in the river attitude.Farmers run the state of ILLinios and IOwa politicaly and Until this bunch is over powered they will continue to build levys and farm right up to the river banks.Buffers need to be between the rivers and the agricultar and every biologist know's it!!!The poisin in the American river systems is a complete disrespect for this land. To the person who says hunters are the reason there is more deer today than there have ever been.You are dead wrong.We have changed the enviroment and have put in a false food supply called corn,beens,ext.that the deer eat with no end in sight of the supply.Thats why there are so many deer.Hunters are the biggest fighters for the cleaning of the land and the protection of wet lands.Commercial fisherman on the other hand dont share this aspect with there land hunting co-parts.Its all about the money. |
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#57
09/27/2007, 05:01 PM
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I personally justify my hobby by learning as much as I can from it, then trying to propagate as much as possible. I want to end up in a career in Conservation and or Coral/ Fish Aquaculture so this hands on experience is very important. I think it is important to find alternate livestock choices and as the demand rises the production will go up until it becomes cheaper to buy tank raised.
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Conserve. Respect. Enjoy. |
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#58
10/01/2007, 02:49 PM
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while i agree that the removal of livestock from our coral reefs for our personal pleasure is far from ok, i think we tend to overlook the other aspects of our hobby that are much more detrimental to the ecosystem as a whole.
the death and bleaching of international reefs is not caused by the removal of individual specimens from the natural habitat. It is caused by the removal of a viable habitat from those creatures. Each year the oceans grow more acidic, get warmer and warmer, and are filled with pollutions ranging from toxic compounds to detrimental food sources such as phosphate, nitrates, and iron, ect. Ever watched what happens in your reef tank when your temperature skyrockets? What about when your ph drops? How about when you pour some po4 in for fun? It's the environment that is the major issue concerning natural coral reefs. So then it must be ok to have a reef tank then huh? well no, we must take a look at the other aspects of reef keeping, and realize their impact, both terrestrial and under-water. First that comes to mind for me is the amount of garbage produced by the transport of our favorite water loving friends. I worked at an LFS some time ago. The thing that always stood out to me was how we were the only business in the entire little strip mall that could produce an entire trash dumpster full of garbage in a day. All it took was one single order to arrive and we would fill it to overflowing, while the other businesses combined over the course of a week filled it maybe halfway. When a new order of livestock comes in, the creature is stored in water, wrapped in 3 bags, clipped with a metal clip, these bags are all put into a larger bag with disposable heat packs, then put into a Styrofoam box, then into another bag, finally to be wrapped up in a cardboard box covered in plastic tape. That only gets the fish between the whosaler and the retailer, that process is repeated when someone mail orders the livestock from the store. On top of that is the amount of carbon and pollution produced by the transport of or friends(usually in a plane, one of the highest polluting methods of travel) to the store and ultimately our homes. By buying domestically raised fish and locally propagated corals, we cut down both on the amount of plastic and packaging used, the amount of fuel used in transport, as well as reduce the demand for wild caught livestock. But what about that other stuff, have you ever considered how much energy was wasted and how much carbon released to make that glass tank of yours? trucking silica sand to factories to heat it to thousands of degrees. How about the amount of fuel required to transport that heavy, large box of glass to your house? What about reef salt? the enviromental impact of mining and processing/purifying the different compounds such as magnesium, strontium, ect. Plus the emissions of transporting the heavy, thick plastic buckets full of the stuff across the country to our homes, only to pour it down the drain. How about the hundreds of additives we are sold, produced in polluting factories, transported to our houses, and in the end, poured down the drain in our frequent water changes. Then there is the issues with the electrical consumption of hundreds of watts of metal halides with thousands of watts in pumps, skimmers and assessories running 24/7. The thousands of gallons of waste water from our ro units. The waste produced by changing those filters every 6 months and throwing out the old ones. Or calcium reactors. ever wonder how they make the co2 in your canisters? and no, they don't take it out of the atmosphere like you would expect, it's made through chemical processes which result in the net quantity of carbon in the atmosphere to increase. I myself keep a reef tank, though a small one, and have no misconceptions about the impact i am having. I believe the important thing i to be aware of exactly what we are doing, minimize our impact where possible, and trying to educate others on the actual impacts. Too often i hear people who just don't have a clue about the impact of their actions. @reefbuddha: i agree wholeheartedly with you. For the most part, the LFS if a bigger part of the problem than the solution. when i worked at the LFS (considered one of the more environmentally friendly in the area) i was shocked at some of the advice that they give and the practices they promote. One customer would come in and buy the largest, rarest, and most expensive fish every week - copperbands, moorish idols, rare angels, ect, and every week he would come back, telling the tale of what had died and wondering what interesting thing was available for him this week. Never once did i hear someone tell him to slow down, sort out the problem first. Try smaller, hardier fish, no, they just sold him more and more and more and more. With other customers they would push the hermit crab/snail CUC packages, when the customer comes back a couple weeks later looking to replace the snails that had mysteriously died, they are just sold another batch of new ones. most are never made aware that their hermit crabs are predators of snails, and when you keep 10 hermits in a 10 gallon, buying snails is essentially a waste of money and living creatures. So am i going to give up my reef tank and become a hippy after all this doom and gloom? No, i love my hobby and also realize the solution to our environmental problem is going to come from new, creative solutions, not from reducing our consumption or buying and selling carbon credits. In the meantime, us reefers do have many options to lessen our individual impacts on our dying, and disappearing natural environment. I myself choose to buy only locally fragged corals, and aquacultured fishes. i use my ro runoff to water my many houseplants. I keep my tank understocked to reduce the number of water changes i do. I choose to not use chemical buffers and additives and am moving away from the energy intense style of reef keeping, to a more natural style with RDSB's, fuges, and algeal nutrient export. Plus, i live in BC which gives me the peace of mind knowing that most of the power used in my tank if produced via hydro-dams. |
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#59
11/19/2007, 02:56 PM
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Great thread!
I'd like to see every hobbyist make at least 1 environmental sustaining choice in their FS/Reef tank. I'll do my part and have a 70/30 ish ratio of captive/wild I'm not sure what our impact is... it impacts to some percentage but the major impactor is all the other industries/pollutants the reefs have to bear. /sigh
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One's standard of living is definitively determined by the size of their reef. - me We live with each other, not for ourselves - Protect our planet |
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#60
11/27/2007, 10:20 AM
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#61
11/28/2007, 04:14 AM
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^^??
70/30 is better than 0% captive/100% wild how do i know it even helps? no one knows... but if 7/10 people recycle at home or 7/10 people stop throwing their cigarette butts out their windows etc. 1. our lanfills wouldn't be nearly as crowded (over 1,900lbs annually per person in trash) 2. we wouldn't need as many street sweepers or have as much litter on the side of the road my point is 1 person probably won't make a difference - but over time if more people did a small part it would make a difference. Owning a car, using paper, participating in this hobby are all parasitic interests... the least "some" of us could do is suck and be more than just consiencious - but instead have action and take responsibility... possibly by giving back or supporting efforts (aquaculture) that help us take less from the earth. trust me, I've seen terrible human impacts on reefs... in areas I've recently dove at - there was probably 1/3 the fish/corals /i saw previously 15 yrs ago. Heck, my last dive I didn't see one blue or french angel and only saw one juvinal queen... 15 yrs ago i would have seen 10+ of each on a single dive! =( the caribbean is dieing. (look at the O2 levels too =/ I only hope the pacific isn't doing the same since it's out of sight - out of mind for most americans. what's the world pop now? 6.7 billion or something? estimated to be 15billion by 2020 or 2050 or something? ouch! =(
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One's standard of living is definitively determined by the size of their reef. - me We live with each other, not for ourselves - Protect our planet |
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#62
11/28/2007, 10:49 AM
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#63
11/28/2007, 01:46 PM
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100% agree! =)
it will basically just give us more time... or prolong the inevitable if the extra time isn't used wisely =( I guess I hope that through suppoting aquaculture etc. that one day we won't even need to get animals from the ocean. Same with other things... if we could re-use 100% of the newspapers/other resources and walk everywhere instead of drive then a higher population might not even affect the oceans/planet thus allowing it to recover (like CFC's and the ozone layer). I'm dreaming of a utopia of course =/ I'm 1 small man with a dream... but I prefer to move forward by at least trying to make a small difference rather than not try at all. For me, every captive bred fish/coral I get "may" be one more "saved" (not harvested) from the ocean which could spawn and help its species and others "try" to continue survival or recover from say - a hurricane or pollution.
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One's standard of living is definitively determined by the size of their reef. - me We live with each other, not for ourselves - Protect our planet |
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#65
11/29/2007, 02:01 PM
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I agree to an extant... but I'm just saying it's better than nothing. What would really need to happen is a global culture change that would get to the roots of many problems... but that's not happening anytime soon - heck, I live in TX and so many people here are so "us" and "them" people.
/sigh
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One's standard of living is definitively determined by the size of their reef. - me We live with each other, not for ourselves - Protect our planet |
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#66
12/03/2007, 12:50 AM
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I cant buy into the idea that our being interested in keeping reefs at home makes us inherently hypocritical... it does not...
Let me ask this: if all aquarium trade in reef organisms was stopped tomorrow, how much would that impact the losses on the reefs? Also, throughout history, people have always harvested from the wild, whether for food, for pets, for wealth, or whatever... this is no different... the real question is how you do your reef keeping, and whether you do the best you can to care for the animals you have in your tanks... Hypocrites say one thing and do another... reef keepers do not inherently do this... we can ensure sustainable harvesting by spending our money with vendors that harvest in the friendliest way possible... otherwise, we can just stop keeping reefs... and I am convinced that this would in fact have a worse effect on the reefs than having us all show our tanks to friends and relatives, and to children, and explain what the system is, and how the animals are endangered, etc. And just one more thing... the reason there are more deer today than in recent history is more because we have eliminated the predators than because of hunters, or because of farm food... we are now the only real predators the deer have... and so the population booms... hunting may help that... but it is not a big revenue producer where the funds go to saving the forests... some do, yes... but mostly the lands preserved are private clubs existing specifically for hunting and fishing... the true wild lands are mostly owned by the government, and those are being sold off at an alarming rate under the current administration...
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Thanks for your help! Paul |
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#67
12/03/2007, 10:29 AM
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Also, on the deer population, without predators, how can the population boom? That would require more habitat to sustain a larger population. Deer don't live in heavy undergrowth, but like areas between open spaces and trees for protection. When man cleared large areas of forest, it enlarged the habitat that benefit deer. So the wolves quit killing them and humans gave them much more room than they had before. And we can all enjoy them when they strip your trees or get hit by a car. |
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#68
12/05/2007, 02:33 AM
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Public land is wasted land, didn't you know? Unrestricted capitalism is the name of the game for Neoliberals (and yes, it's liberal, not neoconservative as it has been sold in the US).
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The Sand People are easily startled, but they will soon be back, and in greater numbers. All statements have been peer reviewed. |
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#69
12/06/2007, 11:01 AM
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#70
12/06/2007, 02:24 PM
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Oh boohoo, of course it's biased, it's a pro environment website, but there's nothing wrong with the info. The page I linked is simply a public record of what BushCo. has done interjected with an occasional editorial comment. And, if you're worried about bias, don't ever listen to me because I'm biased as hell. The important part is that you can't dismiss any of the info that's on there. You can disagree with what it means, but the facts are solid.
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The Sand People are easily startled, but they will soon be back, and in greater numbers. All statements have been peer reviewed. |
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#71
12/06/2007, 02:45 PM
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Come on guys, keep politics out of it. Lets not get this thread closed like so many of the other threads in this forum. There is plenty of room to talk about what we are doing or should be doing without getting into the political blame game.
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Lanikai, kahakai nani, aloha no au ia 'oe. A hui hou kakou. |
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#73
12/10/2007, 11:34 AM
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__________________
Lanikai, kahakai nani, aloha no au ia 'oe. A hui hou kakou. |
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#74
12/17/2007, 03:25 AM
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Linear Mode
