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View Poll Results: How do you power your reef?
wind power 2 13.33%
solar power 1 6.67%
peddle real fast on a stationary bike 5 33.33%
buy carbon credits 7 46.67%
Voters: 15. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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  #51  
Old 03/24/2007, 02:22 AM
MC Lighting MC Lighting is offline
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Before I give my opinion I want to answer the original question and that is with solar and windpower supplementation to grid power...

Now for the funny part about it all of the supporters for solar even though I am one of them not for saving the world but being independent of the utility company is that most people do not even understand that it takes over 20 years of solar panel operation to equivocate the energy that was used in the creation of the panel, what people just don't get is that it takes energy to make these great planet savers its like the stupid hybrid cars it take so much more environmental impact to build the vehicle than its fossil burning counterpart would ever consume.

Like stated above I drive a 1 ton diesel pickup and you know sadly that 9000# oil burner gets the same mileage as my neighbors 3000# Ford escape hybrid that has toxic batteries and motor components not to mention all of the energy to create the chips for computer components that it took to make it work that all took big amounts of energy.

The Toyota Prias is proud that it gets 50mpg but yet a VW bug with a Turbo diesel gets the same mileage and again without all of the other crap that it took to make it work and in the end of the vehicles life it gets crushed for metal where the hybrid has to be carefully disassembled since it has all of the making for a toxic mess but yet so many fall for this saving the planet.

Ok sorry for the rant I am off of my soapbox now.
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  #52  
Old 03/24/2007, 02:37 AM
HippieSmell HippieSmell is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by virginiadiver69
Relax, it will be okay I promise!
If you like I will give you a list of the conservation practices that I have been following for longer than you have been alive. The big difference between you and me is I don't have a soap box.
You've been on a soap box just as much as I have, don't kid yourself. Please list the conservative practices you've engaged in. FYI, you should have done more than me, you're OLDER.
Quote:
Originally posted by virginiadiver69
Our economy depends on people that CONTRIBUTE to it.
Sure it does. But what happens when the ecology fails? Why don't you read up on that.
Quote:
Originally posted by virginiadiver69
When it comes to ideologues and true believers, I am. I like to poke my finger in the eye of hypocrisy.
I'm not a hypocrite. I've done way more than most people in my age and tax bracket. But because I don't spend every last dollar to my name to buy carbon credits, and I have an aquarium, I'm a hypocrite Get a life.
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  #53  
Old 03/24/2007, 02:52 AM
scottras scottras is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by wlagarde
Certainly better than you.
awww who told?
  #54  
Old 03/24/2007, 02:53 AM
HippieSmell HippieSmell is offline
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virginiadiver and wlagarde:
Since you two think that I'm a hypocrite because I have an aquarium, and you two feel that I should spend every last dollar I have to buy carbon credits, here's a proposal. My W2 shows that I made $8081.25 last year. Apparently $200 to buy carbon credits is no big deal. Ok, fair enough. PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS! $200 is ~2.5% of my income. What would that be for you wlagarde? My guess is at least $6,000. How about you virginia? If you two want to cry about how I'm a hypocrite, why don't you two put up or shut up?
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  #55  
Old 03/24/2007, 02:59 AM
HippieSmell HippieSmell is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by wlagarde
Certainly better than you.
Do you EVER say anything that resembles an intelligent thought? It's all childish insults with you. I thought you were a doctor. I've had my doubts before, but you keep reinforcing them.
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  #56  
Old 03/24/2007, 03:03 AM
scottras scottras is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by MC Lighting
Before I give my opinion I want to answer the original question and that is with solar and windpower supplementation to grid power...

Now for the funny part about it all of the supporters for solar even though I am one of them not for saving the world but being independent of the utility company is that most people do not even understand that it takes over 20 years of solar panel operation to equivocate the energy that was used in the creation of the panel, what people just don't get is that it takes energy to make these great planet savers its like the stupid hybrid cars it take so much more environmental impact to build the vehicle than its fossil burning counterpart would ever consume.

Like stated above I drive a 1 ton diesel pickup and you know sadly that 9000# oil burner gets the same mileage as my neighbors 3000# Ford escape hybrid that has toxic batteries and motor components not to mention all of the energy to create the chips for computer components that it took to make it work that all took big amounts of energy.

The Toyota Prias is proud that it gets 50mpg but yet a VW bug with a Turbo diesel gets the same mileage and again without all of the other crap that it took to make it work and in the end of the vehicles life it gets crushed for metal where the hybrid has to be carefully disassembled since it has all of the making for a toxic mess but yet so many fall for this saving the planet.

Ok sorry for the rant I am off of my soapbox now.
I have heard a few people say that about solar panels. Do you have a link to anything as I have searched quite a bit to see if it just misinformation or if it is indeed correct.

As far as hybrids go, I am with you on that one. If they were half the price I would think about it but even then I do not think they are worth it. Better to go a small turbo diesel like the VW you mentioned. Even slightly better is the citroen c4 tdi. Not only would you save money in purchase price compared to the prius, you will not have to replace the batteries in 10 years. Can you imagine what that does to a cars resale value.
  #57  
Old 03/24/2007, 09:21 AM
billsreef billsreef is offline
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Careful folks, we seem to be heading down that slippery path of getting too personal with some comments. I don't know about you all, but I've got better things to do with a Saturday other than baby sit a thread.
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  #58  
Old 03/24/2007, 09:26 AM
virginiadiver69 virginiadiver69 is offline
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Location: Gum Spring, Virginia
Posts: 1,863
Quote:
Originally posted by HippieSmell
you two feel that I should spend every last dollar I have to buy carbon credits
I don't suggest you start eating cat food or anything. I have gathered you are someone who is so certain of OUR imminent demise that can be averted by human intervention. I'm sure even someone who is as "poor" as you are could find funds to offset your carbon footprint. Some examples; reduce the minutes on your cell phone...hell, get rid of your cell phone. Do you have cable tv, satellite even? How many video games do you buy in a year, how much music do you download?


Quote:
Originally posted by HippieSmell
PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS! $200 is ~2.5% of my income. What would that be for you wlagarde? My guess is at least $6,000. How about you virginia? If you two want to cry about how I'm a hypocrite, why don't you two put up or shut up?
I built my house about 1 1/2 yrs ago. I calculated about a 20% premium to have it built in manner that would allow me to be very low impact. As stated before, all of my non-potable water is a rain water collection system($15,000), I take military style showers(soap up, turn off water while I wash then back on to rinse.), turn OFF the water when actually brushing my teeth instead of letting it run the whole time, hot water heater is a demand only system about the size of a brief case($1,500), I use a hot water loop so I don't have to let the water run to get hot water($50), cloths washer is a front loading style that uses less than a gallon of water per load($1,500), cloths are hung out to dry when the temp allows for it(which is most of the year), geothermal water loop for mid range temp control($10,000), 16 SEER furnace and air conditioning for extreme temps($3,000 x 3), about 50% of my daytime lighting is provided by solar tubes($2,000), I recycle and compost, most of my "refrigeration" is done in my root/wine cellar(I do have a small refrigerator for fresh fish, dairy and meat). All of my meat and dairy is harvested locally and last but not least not a SINGLE splinter of wood was used in any fashion in the construction. It is 100% concrete, recycled plastic polymers, steel and glass. It's not one of these ultra modern homes either. If you didn't no any better you would swear it was a circa 1800 Victorian.
My motivation was not to "save the earth" either. I live in a roual aria where "services" are iffy at best. I also like the idea of self sufficiency.
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mated pair False Percs
mated pair Banggai Cardinals
Longnose Hawkfish
Magnificent Rabbitfish
Diamond Goby
Blond Naso Tang
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Last edited by virginiadiver69; 03/24/2007 at 09:35 AM.
  #59  
Old 03/24/2007, 09:28 AM
virginiadiver69 virginiadiver69 is offline
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double post
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mated pair False Percs
mated pair Banggai Cardinals
Longnose Hawkfish
Magnificent Rabbitfish
Diamond Goby
Blond Naso Tang
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I got the poo on me.
  #60  
Old 03/24/2007, 10:34 AM
wlagarde wlagarde is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 419
Quote:
Originally posted by HippieSmell
virginiadiver and wlagarde:
Since you two think that I'm a hypocrite because I have an aquarium, and you two feel that I should spend every last dollar I have to buy carbon credits, here's a proposal. My W2 shows that I made $8081.25 last year. Apparently $200 to buy carbon credits is no big deal. Ok, fair enough. PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS! $200 is ~2.5% of my income. What would that be for you wlagarde? My guess is at least $6,000. How about you virginia? If you two want to cry about how I'm a hypocrite, why don't you two put up or shut up?
So Hippie, are you in school?...a student?
  #61  
Old 03/24/2007, 01:18 PM
Aquaticman74 Aquaticman74 is offline
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HippieSmell also runs a beckett skimmer!
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  #62  
Old 03/25/2007, 07:19 PM
RichardS RichardS is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by scottras
Fair enough Richard, I must admit I was halfway through a lengthy response to you yesterday when I realised it was beer o'clock on a Friday afternoon. Not to worry, did the article Hippie linked to help at all? or do you still have questions? happy to attempt to answer whatever you need to know.
No that did not answer the questions. They are pretty straightforward. I'm not questioning the science of global warming; I'm questioning the science and practicality of your proposed solutions. If your solutions are based on science then answering those three little questions shouldn't be such a difficult task.

Maybe it will be easier for you to answer the question I brought up earlier. Deforestation of tropical rainforests is pumping about 30% as much co2 into the atmosphere as fossil fuel use annually. It seems to me stopping that deforestation and actually regrowing cleared forests is an easier task than switching the world over to "green" alternative energy sources and would have a greater impact in a shorter amount of time.

So why is it that stopping deforestation and regrowing cleared forest is not as high of a priority to you as me getting solar panels and fluorescent light bulbs? I suspect it is because deforestation is being committed by impoverished undeveloped nations and not people like myself who are "guilty" of having a decent life.

Wanting cleaner energy sources, a cleaner environment, I have no problem with that. The green crowd using GW as an excuse to dictate how people should live is what I have a problem with. Heck, Hippie already wants to raise my taxes to pay for it. Of course, he doesn't make enough to even pay taxes so it's easy for him to say that.
  #63  
Old 03/25/2007, 07:52 PM
wlagarde wlagarde is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by RichardS
No that did not answer the questions. They are pretty straightforward. I'm not questioning the science of global warming; I'm questioning the science and practicality of your proposed solutions. If your solutions are based on science then answering those three little questions shouldn't be such a difficult task.

Maybe it will be easier for you to answer the question I brought up earlier. Deforestation of tropical rainforests is pumping about 30% as much co2 into the atmosphere as fossil fuel use annually. It seems to me stopping that deforestation and actually regrowing cleared forests is an easier task than switching the world over to "green" alternative energy sources and would have a greater impact in a shorter amount of time.

So why is it that stopping deforestation and regrowing cleared forest is not as high of a priority to you as me getting solar panels and fluorescent light bulbs? I suspect it is because deforestation is being committed by impoverished undeveloped nations and not people like myself who are "guilty" of having a decent life.

Wanting cleaner energy sources, a cleaner environment, I have no problem with that. The green crowd using GW as an excuse to dictate how people should live is what I have a problem with. Heck, Hippie already wants to raise my taxes to pay for it. Of course, he doesn't make enough to even pay taxes so it's easy for him to say that.
Ditto
  #64  
Old 03/25/2007, 08:06 PM
scottras scottras is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by RichardS


So the questions are -

1.) Not including fusion because it doesn't exist and you can't say when or if it ever will (unless you actually know that). How much of an impact can we realistically expect those green alternative energy sources to make on the world's energy requirements?
2.) If we all started TODAY how long would it take to switch the world over to these alternative energy sources to achieve the answer from question #1?
3.) Taking into account that the earth's population is expected to increase to 9.4 billion in 43 years (around a 50% increase) will these alternative energy sources stop the predicted GW disaster? If yes, How?
Excuse if there are a few errors, but I will answer to my best knowledge.
1.) Green energy sorces can have a huge impact. But these must be combined with increasing efficency of the entire grid. From production through to the end user. Many of the technologies are available today. As you say Fusion does not exist as a solution today and it may be way too expensive to implement in time as a solution, but research must go on. More research into increasing the efficiency of the production, maintenance and use of power is needed now and we can only do that viably if there is significant demand. If renewable power was a boom industry many more solutions will become viable. That being said, with sxisting technologies we can solve the problem. But it will be expensive.

Increasing the fuel efficiency of cars is an easy step to take and most car companies are already on that path. Some others like Ford and GMH are on the ropes partly because they are not. Buying the car you need instead of buying the car you want is always a good option.

To answer your other question, stopping deforestation can have a very large impact. Much of this is happening in developing countries, however much is still hapening in developed countries like Australia. This obviously must be a priority.

2.) It would change on a country to country basis. But if you take the USA for instance. 70% of the US is powered by fossil fuels. I have seen estimates that by 2025 25% can be powered by renewable energy (not including nuclear). That is a significant saving right there.

3.) These solutions can solve some of the problems that AGW will create. However some problems will occur no matter what now. The global sea temps will increase no matter what. But the final temp can be influenced by our actions right now. Global sea levels will increase no matter what, but agian our actions now will help determine the maximum height it will reach. Other issues will depend on the effects of positive feedback loops and other problems that may start sooner. Either way, every action that is taken now will save lives in the future.

The above only reflects my views and understandings of the topic. There are many better informed people who can answer in a better and more concise fashion.
  #65  
Old 03/25/2007, 11:33 PM
MC Lighting MC Lighting is offline
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you know the funny part about global warming is that it has been happening for billions of years its just another way for the nuts in the EPA and other assciated morons to make more money; do you really think Toyota is complaining about the EPA pushing for the PRias I doubt it. Think about everything the EPA and other idiots that are ou there how much money they have made from all of this and we think they are doing it to save the planet. I just heard they are threating to shut down the California Aquiduct because they are afraid we are endangering some fish so lets threated thousand of lives and crops so we can save the fish; that sure fits into the thinking of the EPA types Anyone ever thought about netting the fish and hatchery rasing them to get the numbers up and find a solution to the problem other than just shutting off Californias water source??? Sorry guys I have had enough of this BS about saving the planet I am all for doing the right thing but as stated above there are a lot more sensable things that could and should be done rather we take the Liberal "do it our way" route and well they have us right where they want us. Ok again I am getting off my soap box Sorry for the rant.
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  #66  
Old 03/26/2007, 12:49 AM
scottras scottras is offline
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Global warming has not been hapening for millions of years. Maybe thousands of years, with a few dips in between, but not millions.

No one is arguing wether global warming happens naturally. What scientists are worried about is how humans have sped up global warming. That is why it is sometimes called anthropogenic global warming, or AGW.

And just a far out idea, how about you stop calling people morons.
  #67  
Old 03/26/2007, 01:06 AM
MC Lighting MC Lighting is offline
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My appologies if you took the genral name personally actually it was not aimed at anyone in this thread you have to understand that I live in northern claifornia where most of the propoganda is focused and to be quite honest I used that word trying to be nice I have much stronger words that are far more fitting but again my appologies if you took it personally. And you may be right that it is thousands of years but last time I checked Cars, electricity and the such have not been around all that long so I have a hard time believing that all of this impact is due to us I think mother nature is just going about her business and we don't like the fact that we are the ones who will be left behind; not that it much matters since we will most likely be wiped out by the astroid headed our way in the next 20 something years....
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Last edited by MC Lighting; 03/26/2007 at 01:20 AM.
  #68  
Old 03/26/2007, 01:29 AM
scottras scottras is offline
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No problem, I didn't take it personally. More just a general point.

Have a look at the research. There is plenty of evidence for AGW. We have only seen real acceleration in global warming since the middle of last century. The problem with AGW as opposed to natural global warming, is that many species (including humans) will have little chance to adjust to the change. There have been many species already that have been directly affected by GW.

Oh yeah and totally agree with you on getting hit by something from space. There is so little searching going on it that regard. Such a huge risk as well.
  #69  
Old 03/26/2007, 05:06 PM
virginiadiver69 virginiadiver69 is offline
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I heard a stat today that maybe someone could clear up for me.
The Co2 produced by humans amounts to about 4% of all Co2 in the atmosphere. Is this true?
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mated pair False Percs
mated pair Banggai Cardinals
Longnose Hawkfish
Magnificent Rabbitfish
Diamond Goby
Blond Naso Tang
Bluechin Trigger

I got the poo on me.
  #70  
Old 03/30/2007, 01:46 PM
dragonforce dragonforce is offline
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You guys are still buying the global warming fear propaganda?

I'm pretty sure we all know there is no global warming, power shortages with rolling blackouts , no oil shortage, the real reasons behind 911/pearl harbor and kennedy was certainly not shot by some lone gunman. I find it really rather hard to believe I'm living in the same country as most of you. Please for the sake of our future, WAKE UP.

Go watch some more fox news.

The only thing that matters and will ever matter is your family and friends. Peace to all you brothermen and women
  #71  
Old 03/30/2007, 01:56 PM
wlagarde wlagarde is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by dragonforce
You guys are still buying the global warming fear propaganda?

I'm pretty sure we all know there is no global warming, power shortages with rolling blackouts , no oil shortage, the real reasons behind 911/pearl harbor and kennedy was certainly not shot by some lone gunman. I find it really rather hard to believe I'm living in the same country as most of you. Please for the sake of our future, WAKE UP.

Go watch some more fox news.

The only thing that matters and will ever matter is your family and friends. Peace to all you brothermen and women
Oh what a load of BS.
  #72  
Old 03/31/2007, 09:31 AM
sayn3ver sayn3ver is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by MC Lighting
Like stated above I drive a 1 ton diesel pickup and you know sadly that 9000# oil burner gets the same mileage as my neighbors 3000# Ford escape hybrid that has toxic batteries and motor components not to mention all of the energy to create the chips for computer components that it took to make it work that all took big amounts of energy.

The Toyota Prias is proud that it gets 50mpg but yet a VW bug with a Turbo diesel gets the same mileage and again without all of the other crap that it took to make it work and in the end of the vehicles life it gets crushed for metal where the hybrid has to be carefully disassembled since it has all of the making for a toxic mess but yet so many fall for this saving the planet.
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  #73  
Old 03/31/2007, 09:35 AM
Rosseau Rosseau is offline
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Hybrid technologies coupled with better production methods will prove to eventually streamline the entire process. It's all a big work in progress, as everything always is.

Yes, something like solar panels require great amounts of energy to produce them. However as demand and then the supply increseas, not only will the cost decrease but so will the per unit environmental cost (in many cases, I'm generalizing a bit).

So, lets not all be too cynical of new technologies as start up costs of all varieties will almost always exist.
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  #74  
Old 03/31/2007, 09:55 AM
sayn3ver sayn3ver is offline
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I totally agree. Diesel power is underated and over looked in this whole scheme. You are correct, the vw 1.9L turbo motor gets roughly 45-50mpg highway with no special technology. it can also run biodiesel without issue and SVO(straight vegetable oil) with some modifications(most reefers would probably be able to mod theirs no problem). What i like best is that outside of oil changes and basic maintence, diesel is reliable and requires no fancy emissions gear unlike modern day gas engines who may intially put out less emissions but once they age a few years and all the emissions gear that is supposed to be replaced and done during maintence is neglected, they end up polluting a lot more than a diesel. Diesel engines also tend to last longer and are more reliable than gasoline engines.

People need to forget electric cars and hydrogen power. Too complicated and far fetched.The only thing electric cars may solve is that carbon emmisions may be reduced to only the power plants intsead of the mobile vehicles, which maybe then we can improve upon our air scrubbers to make buring fossil fuels alittle cleaner.

I also don't get why the united states is so damn focused on ethenol production while creating biodiesel is much easier and less energy intensive(as in it may yield a net gain of energy), and we could use biotech to develope a better crop which could produce high oil yields, grows fast, insect and drought resistant, etc etc not to mention the co2 created when burned in the engines would be reused in theory by the plants that are being grown as fuel.

And finally, life style/living changes should be made. Space is limited. Cities are more efficent than the suburbs, where one gets into their SUV getting 15mpg and has to drive 5 or 10 miles to get to a wawa or to a food store...to the post office. Cities offer high density meaning less distance to travel (bikes and walking and mass transit become more favorable). Logistically its easier for power grids and plumbing and delivery of goods, etc etc. I think the fedual style city planning may be what we should be considering with xtremely tall scapers and dense living areas surrounded by outlying rural area used to farm crops for food and fuel. A bit radical maybe, but w/e. You have to think radically when it comes to these sorts of things. Electricity, planes, physics, nuclear power, etc were all radical ideas for their times, but are now common place.

I don't want to force people to live a certain way, but there is a lot of room to improve upon efficency. I wish people would just place trash trashcans really. Nothing i hate more than when i am on the water at crew practice in the morning and see trashbags and bottles and potato chip foil floating and stuck on shore.


Quote:
Originally posted by MC Lighting
Like stated above I drive a 1 ton diesel pickup and you know sadly that 9000# oil burner gets the same mileage as my neighbors 3000# Ford escape hybrid that has toxic batteries and motor components not to mention all of the energy to create the chips for computer components that it took to make it work that all took big amounts of energy.

The Toyota Prias is proud that it gets 50mpg but yet a VW bug with a Turbo diesel gets the same mileage and again without all of the other crap that it took to make it work and in the end of the vehicles life it gets crushed for metal where the hybrid has to be carefully disassembled since it has all of the making for a toxic mess but yet so many fall for this saving the planet.
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  #75  
Old 03/31/2007, 09:58 AM
Rosseau Rosseau is offline
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I wish that N.A. would start building roundabouts like in the UK and much of Europe. Starting and stopping not only causes noise pollution, wears down your breaks and other components but is terribly inefficient as far as fuel consumption is concerned.

I think a simple idea to push on people is to drive fuel consciously. Simple driving techniques can really cut down the consumption. This is a way that doesn't affect your life much, you save money on fuel and use less.

Agreed about the diesel. Maybe not a long term viable solution, but a great option that should be explored further in the meantime.
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