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View Poll Results: How do you power your reef?
wind power 2 13.33%
solar power 1 6.67%
peddle real fast on a stationary bike 5 33.33%
buy carbon credits 7 46.67%
Voters: 15. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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  #26  
Old 03/22/2007, 07:08 PM
virginiadiver69 virginiadiver69 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by scottras
I will be changing it soon so that it goes directly into a rain water tank which will supply the washing machine, garden and hopefully toilets.
This is kind of what I use. It has been borrowed from the cattle industry. I had a 2500 gal tank buried on my side yard when I built my house that collects rain water from my roof run off. It is used for all non-potable water needs.
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  #27  
Old 03/22/2007, 07:23 PM
scottras scottras is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by billsreef
I forget what power rating was on the solar systems I looked at awhile back, but they were quite a bit more than that.

Wish I could do a windmill, but several years ago (about 15 or 20) a guy down the road from me put one up. Lot's of people objected to it Hence the town added to the zoning laws to prevent anyone else from doing the same thing. This in a rural town with plenty of old windmills still standing from the days when they were used to run irrigation pumps
I am looking at the moment, but there is a wind turbine that can be put on the side of a house. It is basically a large cylinder with vanes to catch the wind and turn it. It only goes as high as the house so that most people would not see it. It would obviously need some fencing off as well but that is a possibility

There is also a guy in Aus that has invented a smaller turbine 1-5m diameters that are also very quite and efficient. But then trying to wade through the red tape of zoning laws is always hard if they see the word turbine.

Edit: found the silent turbine:
http://www.hushenergy.com.au/
  #28  
Old 03/22/2007, 09:22 PM
RichardS RichardS is offline
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My preferred lighting for my reef tanks (plural) are metal halides. I like the ripples among other things.

I drive an F250 crewcab not because I need to, just because I like it.

Most of my home lighting is flourescent. Not because I think I'm saving the planet but because it saves me money.

In 3 years I will be installing a new roof on my home along with solar panels. Not because I think I'm going to save the planet but because it will save me money. I'm going to look into a windmill as well since I'm in 7 acres and on top of a hill. For the same reason.

I'm not under the illusion that those things will affect the global climate one way or another. I am not under the illusion that it is possible to be carbon neutral and still be breathing. Although when I get home I think I might kill my 130lb wolfhound puppy since he pumps alot of CO2 into the atmosphere...and because my wife just called and told me that he ate our coffee table.

A better topic might a realistic discussion of how much of an impact these small things can actually have. Apparently none of you will discuss that. It's a tough topic with no easy answers and so much easier to just stick with the talking points of whatever side of the fence your on, so I understand.

As far as having lots of wind farms, I think a whole bunch of birds are hoping we don't go that route. If we do and if it solves global warming then at least the environmentalists will have new cause to rally behind.
  #29  
Old 03/22/2007, 09:57 PM
scottras scottras is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by RichardS
My preferred lighting for my reef tanks (plural) are metal halides. I like the ripples among other things.

I drive an F250 crewcab not because I need to, just because I like it.

Most of my home lighting is flourescent. Not because I think I'm saving the planet but because it saves me money.

In 3 years I will be installing a new roof on my home along with solar panels. Not because I think I'm going to save the planet but because it will save me money. I'm going to look into a windmill as well since I'm in 7 acres and on top of a hill. For the same reason.

I'm not under the illusion that those things will affect the global climate one way or another. I am not under the illusion that it is possible to be carbon neutral and still be breathing. Although when I get home I think I might kill my 130lb wolfhound puppy since he pumps alot of CO2 into the atmosphere...and because my wife just called and told me that he ate our coffee table.

A better topic might a realistic discussion of how much of an impact these small things can actually have. Apparently none of you will discuss that. It's a tough topic with no easy answers and so much easier to just stick with the talking points of whatever side of the fence your on, so I understand.

As far as having lots of wind farms, I think a whole bunch of birds are hoping we don't go that route. If we do and if it solves global warming then at least the environmentalists will have new cause to rally behind.
I have always thought that making it more economical to install solar/wind power is a great method to reduce carbon emmisions. I know you do not believ in AGW, and there are many more like you. But if it is cheaper for you to convert to alternative energy created by yourself, than staying on the grid, then a lot of people will do it. And the benefits are not just for the environment. There are many factors that will also help your local area.

I feel for you with your puppy. Mine is a 6mnth old Lab and she delights in destroying things while we are not home. I would hate to think what a puppy around three times her size could do.

Re the birds. No need to worry about that. Wind farm deaths are the most researched cause of bird deaths in the world. Communication towers, cats and the windows of large buildings cause many more deaths than wind farms could do.

The last estimates I saw in the US have estimated 100 million bird deaths a year to domestic cats compared to 5000 - 10000 deaths from turbines. The Exxon Valdez alone killed an estimated 500000 bird deaths. Newer research can even chose better sites so that death rate can be reduced.
  #30  
Old 03/22/2007, 10:20 PM
HippieSmell HippieSmell is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by virginiadiver69
I see were that could make it difficult. I assume you are either in school or just graduated. Been there, done that. Paying back student loans and just starting out can be tough.
Even at a $100k per year, it would be tough to live the green "life style" considering almost $25k for a hybrid car or $20k for solar panels. What's a person to do?

I've looked into some of the carbon credits and it looks like for just a couple of hundred dollars you can offset a TON of Co2. That seems like something even a "poor" ideological person could afford. I am new to this so, HIPPIE...which one do you use. I wouldn't want to do the equivalent of buying the Brooklyn bridge...if you know what I mean. How would I know that they are really planting the trees?
Wow, at first you almost said something nice to me. I'm shocked.

What is a person to do? Do what you can. You'll NEVER see me ragging on somebody that doesn't live completely 'green'. That isn't the point, and it isn't completely necessary. I do have a problem with people who insist that they can do whatever they want and refuse to open their eyes.

I've gone over what I do in a previous thread (fluorescent lights, plastic over the windows, house temp at 68 degrees in the winter, recycle, volunteer, blah blah). You may think that a couple hundred dollars to buy carbon credits is no big deal, but living expenses here are pretty high, and $200 to me is a couple months worth of anything other than basic living expenses. CF bulbs and sheets of plastic is it for me right now. I spent 5 years, and tens of thousands of dollars getting a college degree, and another YEAR trying to start a career in ecology. But, economics and other factors have just about destroyed that dream. Now I'm in the midst of a career change before the career even started. So, I've spent 6 years, lots of money, and lots of frustration trying to do what believe in. Maybe that will shed some light on why I get upset when people question my commitment.

However, I did find out about a program in Minnesota that requires the electric company to offer green power for those who ask for it (in MN it's windmills). It's a $0.02 premium per kW/h, so I'll give that a go. Everybody's power is already partially windmill because all of the windmill power goes into the grid anyway, so I'm not making the world any greener by doing it, but it sends a message to the power companies. Bottom line is I'm doing all I've been asking of people. Do little things, make some effort, and support green(er) tech with your wallets, your voice, and your votes.
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Last edited by HippieSmell; 03/22/2007 at 10:57 PM.
  #31  
Old 03/22/2007, 11:41 PM
RichardS RichardS is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by scottras
I know you do not believ in AGW, and there are many more like you.
Actually I have never said that. The earth is getting warmer, that is not debated by anyone. What I have said in another thread is that the debate over whether or not humans are causing it is a rather pointless debate. Any fool can look around and tell that we certainly aren't helping the environment. So I'm not against solar panels, tidal power, windmills. These are all good things.

Let's assume for the sake of discussion that GW is 100% caused by humans. The point I have made to you in the other thread is that these green alternatives that you and the GW proponents keep talking about are never going to be able to reduce CO2 emissions enough to reverse the oncoming disaster that you say is about to happen. Instead of responding to that point you say fission is too expensive and dangerous but fusion will be the answer. Well fusion doesn't exist so I guess it's easy to say it'll be cheap and safe. I'm no scientist but my guess is a meltdown of a fusion reactor might have the potential to be a bit worse than chernobyl.

It seems to me that you, Hippie, Al Gore and pretty much every other GW proponent that I have heard speak are simply using GW to promote your world view/political view. Although in Al Gore's case I think it's more of a case of him finding a way to make some money and/or simply be relevant.

Why isn't regrowth of the worlds destroyed rainforests the number one goal of the GW camp? That would do more than everyone getting solar panels. Heck, even Hippie has admitted that the US is a net CO2 sink do to regrowth of forests (of course we are still really really bad). I think things like this or nuclear energy or cleaner use of fossil fuels are not on the agenda because they don't punish or lay blame the right people. I may be wrong about that but I'm quite certain that saving the environment from imminent disaster is not the goal of the GW movement. Hmmm....GW movement, almost sounds like a political party doesn't it? Ahh..but no politics on rc so I'll stop now.
  #32  
Old 03/23/2007, 12:12 AM
RichardS RichardS is offline
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Oh I almost forgot...

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...lls-usat_x.htm
  #33  
Old 03/23/2007, 12:35 AM
scottras scottras is offline
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Just goes to show that a lot of research needs to go into the placement of the wind farms. Unfortunately sometimes the placement gets a little political. In Australia we recently had the federal government step in to stop a wind farm in Victoria. The reason given was to save an endangered parrot. Of course the parrot was never seen in the area, but it could have killed one per year. Over in Tasmania a wind farm was approved by the federal govt that is actually in the migratory path of the same parrot.
  #34  
Old 03/23/2007, 01:00 AM
RichardS RichardS is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by scottras
Just goes to show that a lot of research needs to go into the placement of the wind farms. Unfortunately sometimes the placement gets a little political.
Oh, I thought you had said it was nothing to worry about. My mistake I guess.
  #35  
Old 03/23/2007, 07:26 AM
scottras scottras is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by RichardS
Oh, I thought you had said it was nothing to worry about. My mistake I guess.
The amount of bird deaths wind farms cause is small compared to other source. This can be reduced by better research into placement. You really are doing your best to be provocative.
  #36  
Old 03/23/2007, 11:09 AM
Ninong Ninong is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by scottras
The amount of bird deaths wind farms cause is small compared to other source. This can be reduced by better research into placement.
The total number of birds killed per year in the Altamont Pass is estimated at approximately 5,000 -- including 70 golden eagles. The Altamont is one of the richest raptor habitats in the world with the highest density of nesting golden eagles in the world. This is unfortunate and steps are being taken to reduce the number of birds killed but deaths from wind turbines is a very small relative risk to birds. Total deaths from wind turbines nationally is estimated at about 30,000. Tens of millions of birds are killed annually by pesticides, tens of millions of birds are killed annually by communication towers, tens of millions of birds are killed annually by vehicles, tens of millions of birds are killed annually by house cats and hundreds of millions of birds are killed annually by buildings and windows.

Having lived in Tracy for five years, I can tell you that the issue of wind turbines killing raptors is taken very seriously there. Unfortunately, those wind farms were erected two decades ago without much consideration for the potential impact on birds and bats. Alameda, San Joaquin and Contra Costa counties have forced the various energy companies involved in these operations to take steps to mitigate the impact on birds. Some of the energy companies have hired avian experts to advise them on measures to reduce bird fatalities.

The older 75-ft tall turbines are being replaced by 211-ft tall models. The taller models are above the hunting range of most of the raptors. And placing the wind turbines on the leeward side of the hills reduces their impact on raptors because they prefer to hunt on the windward side, where they soar on the updrafts. Many of these turbines are ready for replacement anyway. They were first generation technology that was installed more than 20 years ago. The newer, larger models are more efficient as well as being less deadly to birds.
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  #37  
Old 03/23/2007, 02:14 PM
RichardS RichardS is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by scottras
You really are doing your best to be provocative.
I can't help it because you still refuse to even respond to the issue I have repeatedly brought up.

Quote:
Originally posted by RichardS
The point I have made to you in the other thread is that these green alternatives that you and the GW proponents keep talking about are never going to be able to reduce CO2 emissions enough to reverse the oncoming disaster that you say is about to happen. Instead of responding....
I really would like to hear some kind of explanation. All of you have so many scientific facts surely you can respond in some meaningful fashion. Let me try one more time in the form of questions not statements but first....

FACT 1: Earth is facing a GW disaster at the hands on mankind in somewhere between 100 years or as little as a couple of decades.
FACT 2: We need to get away from fossil fuels. Nuclear energy is off the table. Instead we go to solar, wind, tidal power and hopefully someday fusion power.

Ok, that's what I have gathered from the many posts on this subject. I think I left a few green energy sources off. It was not deliberate and this isn't a setup. These are real questions...

So the questions are -

1.) Not including fusion because it doesn't exist and you can't say when or if it ever will (unless you actually know that). How much of an impact can we realistically expect those green alternative energy sources to make on the world's energy requirements?
2.) If we all started TODAY how long would it take to switch the world over to these alternative energy sources to achieve the answer from question #1?
3.) Taking into account that the earth's population is expected to increase to 9.4 billion in 43 years (around a 50% increase) will these alternative energy sources stop the predicted GW disaster? If yes, How?

Ya'll (yeah I'm texan) have quoted boatloads of science on GW so can you answer these questions with some accuracy? Anybody?


Again, this isn't a setup. I'm really not completely on either side of the fence and if ALL scientists agree tomorrow that there is no such thing as GW then I still think we should make an effort to move towards cleaner fuel technologies. Many reasons for that without the GW issue.

I really wasn't trying to make this a thread about birds so I'll leave that alone.
  #38  
Old 03/23/2007, 03:04 PM
HippieSmell HippieSmell is offline
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Well, to answer your question: http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/editors/17381/
This includes nuclear power, which I've never been completely against, but we have got to figure out what to do with the waste, especially if we are going to build many more plants. I just don't know how nuclear power will be feasible considering there are three high profile international nuclear issues right now. I guess current nuclear powers can use nuclear, and the non nuclear countries can't. Anyway. There is a bit of a sticker shock associated with going alternative, but keep in mind that it isn't a money pit. The money spent will stay in the country and spur new industries, but I'm sure the money will have to be generated through taxes, initially at least. Would it be easy? No, but I can't imagine the alternative will be any cheaper.
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All statements have been peer reviewed.
  #39  
Old 03/23/2007, 05:52 PM
virginiadiver69 virginiadiver69 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by HippieSmell

I've gone over what I do in a previous thread (fluorescent lights, plastic over the windows, house temp at 68 degrees in the winter, recycle, volunteer, blah blah).
That's all nice but...your regular home owner that is unaware of the impending demise does these things.


Quote:
Originally posted by HippieSmell
You may think that a couple hundred dollars to buy carbon credits is no big deal, but living expenses here are pretty high, and $200 to me is a couple months worth of anything other than basic living expenses. CF bulbs and sheets of plastic is it for me right now.
I would think that anybody could scrape together what amounts to "less than a dollar a day" to help save the world.


Quote:
Originally posted by HippieSmell
I spent 5 years, and tens of thousands of dollars getting a college degree, and another YEAR trying to start a career in ecology. But, economics and other factors have just about destroyed that dream.
I thought it was "ecology destroyed the economy".
Wouldn't it be ironic if that were really true? think about it, you spend 5 yrs getting a degree in something you are passionate about, IT destroys the economy, now you can't do everything possible to do what you went into ecology for in the first place.

Don't worry though, you seem like a smart person and I'm sure you will make it.
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  #40  
Old 03/23/2007, 07:11 PM
HippieSmell HippieSmell is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by virginiadiver69
That's all nice but...your regular home owner that is unaware of the impending demise does these things.
Do they? Everybody? There's a big difference between 20% and 100%. If I was jetting around the word for vacation, and was spending thousands of dollars more every month than I do, I would feel the need to pull more weight. Hopefully, I'll be in that position some day. Probably the position you're in.
Quote:
Originally posted by virginiadiver69
I would think that anybody could scrape together what amounts to "less than a dollar a day" to help save the world.
You're Sally Struthers all of a sudden? You can judge me all you want, but my guess is that I'm still a lot more 'green' than you are.
Quote:
Originally posted by virginiadiver69
I thought it was "ecology destroyed the economy".
Wouldn't it be ironic if that were really true? think about it, you spend 5 yrs getting a degree in something you are passionate about, IT destroys the economy, now you can't do everything possible to do what you went into ecology for in the first place.

Don't worry though, you seem like a smart person and I'm sure you will make it.
It is a joke. Our economy DEPENDS on the ecology, remember that.

Thanks for the compliment. Maybe in real life you're not always abrasive.
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All statements have been peer reviewed.
  #41  
Old 03/23/2007, 07:42 PM
wlagarde wlagarde is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by HippieSmell
As if you are going to do that. You're just trying to be cute. I would love to do those things, and I will, it's just hard when I make under $10,000 a year right now. Yes, that's right, not $100,000, only $10,000. I assure you, my footprint is relatively small simply because I'm poor as dirt.
...then I don't believe you should be keeping a reef tank.
  #42  
Old 03/23/2007, 07:43 PM
virginiadiver69 virginiadiver69 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by HippieSmell


You're Sally Struthers all of a sudden? You can judge me all you want, but my guess is that I'm still a lot more 'green' than you are.
Relax, it will be okay I promise!
If you like I will give you a list of the conservation practices that I have been following for longer than you have been alive. The big difference between you and me is I don't have a soap box.

Quote:
Originally posted by HippieSmell

It is a joke. Our economy DEPENDS on the ecology, remember that.

Our economy depends on people that CONTRIBUTE to it.


Quote:
Originally posted by HippieSmell

Thanks for the compliment. Maybe in real life you're not always abrasive.
When it comes to ideologues and true believers, I am. I like to poke my finger in the eye of hypocrisy.
__________________
Current Livestock:
mated pair False Percs
mated pair Banggai Cardinals
Longnose Hawkfish
Magnificent Rabbitfish
Diamond Goby
Blond Naso Tang
Bluechin Trigger

I got the poo on me.
  #43  
Old 03/23/2007, 08:00 PM
billsreef billsreef is offline
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On the subject of ecology vs. economy, they can compliment each other. In fact for some areas of the world (my own included), the economy depends on the ecology. No one's spending money to come visit polluted beaches and fisherman can't make a living from polluted waters...and that's just my little corner of the world.
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  #44  
Old 03/23/2007, 08:14 PM
wlagarde wlagarde is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by billsreef
On the subject of ecology vs. economy, they can compliment each other. In fact for some areas of the world (my own included), the economy depends on the ecology. No one's spending money to come visit polluted beaches and fisherman can't make a living from polluted waters...and that's just my little corner of the world.
yes - this is true.
  #45  
Old 03/23/2007, 08:15 PM
virginiadiver69 virginiadiver69 is offline
I think I love my tank
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Gum Spring, Virginia
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Quote:
Originally posted by wlagarde
...then I don't believe you should be keeping a reef tank.
That money could be spent buying carbon credits.
__________________
Current Livestock:
mated pair False Percs
mated pair Banggai Cardinals
Longnose Hawkfish
Magnificent Rabbitfish
Diamond Goby
Blond Naso Tang
Bluechin Trigger

I got the poo on me.
  #46  
Old 03/23/2007, 09:06 PM
HippieSmell HippieSmell is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by wlagarde
...then I don't believe you should be keeping a reef tank.
It was a gift.
__________________
The Sand People are easily startled, but they will soon be back, and in greater numbers.

All statements have been peer reviewed.
  #47  
Old 03/23/2007, 09:15 PM
scottras scottras is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by RichardS
I can't help it because you still refuse to even respond to the issue I have repeatedly brought up.


Fair enough Richard, I must admit I was halfway through a lengthy response to you yesterday when I realised it was beer o'clock on a Friday afternoon. Not to worry, did the article Hippie linked to help at all? or do you still have questions? happy to attempt to answer whatever you need to know.
  #48  
Old 03/23/2007, 09:27 PM
wlagarde wlagarde is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by HippieSmell
It was a gift.
...and so was my SUV.
  #49  
Old 03/23/2007, 11:40 PM
scottras scottras is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by wlagarde
...and so was my SUV.
Damn, you must have been a very good boy.
  #50  
Old 03/24/2007, 12:01 AM
wlagarde wlagarde is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by scottras
Damn, you must have been a very good boy.
Certainly better than you.
 

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