Coral Advice

bhenderson79 · #1 10/27/2007, 05:22 PM

Hello!
I have been keeping freshwater tanks for a bunch of years but just tried my first reef setup starting in February. It's a 75 gallon setup and the fish in the tank are doing extremely well (some firefish, a tomato clown, 2 banggai cardinals, algae blenny, royal gramma) but my corals just aren't really thriving. I have a variety of soft corals (a colt, various zooanthiids, a fungia, some tree corals, some mushrooms... stuff like that) and some of the individual polyps are doing ok and growing, but for the most part nothing is spreading at all and a lot of them just seem generally unhappy. I also have a BTA that found a place it liked and stayed there for months but has been shrinking (it was in a place that i couldn't get to to offer it any food, but it had ample light and a clown living in it).

So anyway, I'm looking for some advice from experience folks that could help me set everything straight. I have 2 actinic bulbs and 2 of the other high power coral white bulbs (sorry, i dont have the packages for them anymore to remember the exact terminology or specs for them) - and my LFS assured me it was all the best lighting for corals. I've got 2 canister filters and a protein skimmer running, so I would think the output from those 3 would give me decent enough water flow. What else am I missing?

Thanks so much!

cd77 · #2 10/27/2007, 06:10 PM

Just a few things I can think of would be high nitrates (what are your most recent test kit readings?), coral proximity, PC bulbs need replacement, not enough flow (do you know your flow rate?) ...

Piscator · #3 10/27/2007, 06:11 PM

Sorry to hear about your coral challenges, lets see what we can figure out.

Quote:

I have 2 actinic bulbs and 2 of the other high power coral white bulbs (sorry, i dont have the packages for them anymore to remember the exact terminology or specs for them) - and my LFS assured me it was all the best lighting for corals.

Are you talking about MH bulbs? A little more info. would help. This is very important.

Quote:

I've got 2 canister filters and a protein skimmer running, so I would think the output from those 3 would give me decent enough water flow. What else am I missing?
Thanks so much! [/B]

The skimmer doesn't count toward your overall flow. The two cannisters provide some flow, but we need to know how much. What are they rated?

I suspect the issue may be with lighting and too little flow. With a 75g tank you would want to aim for maybe 20X that volume in flow/hr as a bare minimum. May need to add some powerheads. A couple Koralia's would be good.

The cannisters of course present another issue. How are your nitrate readings? Some people, depending on how they are running them, run into issues with cannisters. I'm not saying they can't be used, but need to be run and maintained correctly for a reef.

Any live rock?

So, the info that would help most is: lighting specifics, flow/hr, exact parameters including ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, calcium, alk., pH, salinity, and temp.

These should get us started toward a solution I think. Lots of good help around on this board.

Best wishes,

capn_hylinur · #4 10/27/2007, 11:54 PM

If they are thriving but not growing it sounds like a calcium problem
as above it would be helpful for you to post your tank parameters

loosecannon · #5 10/28/2007, 01:22 AM

The bta MOST be feed! what lights do you have.

bhenderson79 · #6 10/28/2007, 08:48 AM

Thanks for the replies, everyone. Here's the info I can give about the tank parameters.

Tank:
Size - 75 gallons
Live Rock - at least 100 lbs. You can see the whole set up here: http://billhenderson.org/images/fish...1190240584.jpg
Live sand bed, couple inches deep
Salinity - generally right around 1.025
Temperature - usually around 77 F in the morning, gets up to about 81 when the lights have been on all day

Filtration:
Fluval 404 (I am not sure what it's rated for flow, but the internet seems to indicate about 317 gph)
Rena XP3 (the box claims 187 gph)
Both filters contain carbon bags, chemi-pure, and polyfill. The Fluval also has ceramic rings the top chamber.

Lighting:
2x Coralife 20,000k - F20-T12-BP
1x Coralife Actinic - F18-T8-BP
1x Coralife Actinic 03 - F20-T12-BP
The lights are set on a timer. Both sets are on about 8-10 hours a day with overlap (about 12 hours of light total).

Unfortunately I don't have any kind of calcium test kit. Hopefully this can give us some clues, and if I have time this afternoon I'll get up the other water parameter numbers but unfortunately I have to head out now.

Again, thanks so much to everyone who is willing to help! I really appreciate it.

cd77 · #7 10/28/2007, 10:13 AM

Throw a couple Koralia 3's in there.

When did you last change your light bulbs out?

Butch 37 · #8 10/28/2007, 10:22 AM

Tank looks good..I agree with cd77 said about the powerheads...

loosecannon · #9 10/28/2007, 10:34 AM

Those are standre fishes lights.I woyld put pc, or t5`s on it! I have 4 65 watt bulbs on my 75 gal. aquatraders 99$. the other things look good.

cd77 · #10 10/28/2007, 10:57 AM

Agreed! More lighting would definitely help out. If you just plan to keep softies, PC will be fine.. The Coralife LunarLight Aqualight would be a decent fixture.

bhenderson79 · #11 10/28/2007, 03:21 PM

Will i need to purchase a new light fixture or just different bulbs?

So is the concensus that I need BOTH more flow AND different light?

bhenderson79 · #12 10/28/2007, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cd77
Throw a couple Koralia 3's in there.

When did you last change your light bulbs out?

i changed one actinic about a week ago because the old one blew out. the others i have had since february.

cd77 · #13 10/28/2007, 03:54 PM

Work on getting some flow in the tank. 15x-30x is what I'd target for softies. Two Koralia 3's or a K-3 and a K-2 would work nicely.

First thing first though. Get a Marine/Reef test kit and find out where you stand on Ammonia, Nitrites, Nitrates, Calcium, Alk, pH, etc.. It's impossible for anyone to provide any guidance without knowing these numbers. With your canister filters, and all that LR without much flow, I have a feeling your nitrates may be very high,

Lighting is the last thing I'd be looking at right now -- but FYI, after ~5000 hours, you can lose up to 2/3 output on those bulbs, so it's possible they need to be replaced -- though my first thought is no. I'm not sure I'd put any money into more T12/T8 bulbs. You might want to consider a new fixture. On the low end, a Coralife PC fixture would work well, or if you can, consider a 5 bulb individual reflector T5 fixture. If you plan to keep clams or SPS though, now would be a good time to consider a MH+T5 fixture -- A nice T5 fixture or (especially) a MH+T5 fixture will make your tank look stunning.

Last, though probably not worth mentioning since you said your BTA has found a good spot, your anemone can damage your corals when it moves.

Take a water sample to your LFS and ask them to test for everything they possibly can

bhenderson79 · #14 10/28/2007, 05:43 PM

I just did some water tests.

Calcium = about 460, which looks pretty good
pH = 8.3 to 8.4
Ammonia = 0
Nitrates = looks like about 10-20 ppm

cd77 · #15 10/28/2007, 05:46 PM

Your nitrates are extremely high for a reef. I'd do a series of large water changes over the next few days, start wet skimming, and clean your cannister filters / replace the media, or better yet.. ditch the cannister filters in favor of a good sump with a fuge and some macro-algae.

bhenderson79 · #16 10/28/2007, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cd77
Your nitrates are extremely high for a reef. I'd do a series of large water changes over the next few days, start wet skimming, and clean your cannister filters / replace the media, or better yet.. ditch the cannister filters in favor of a good sump with a fuge and some macro-algae.

Thanks so much for the prompt response.
I can't really afford to spend a ton on new filtration right now... probably not until after new years. Would you suggest cleaning out the canisters more often in the meantime? I usually clean them out about once every 4 weeks each (i tend to alternate every other one every 2 weeks).

And what is wet skimming?
THANKS!

cd77 · #17 10/28/2007, 07:51 PM

I'm not sure that alternating them will help the problem at all. What media are you running in them? Just filter floss and carbon?

Since you already have a filter canister (ehh, this is all assuming it is like a Fluval or something that would sit under a tank), In that case I imagine you've already got most of the plumbing that you'd need. You might be surprised how little you'd need to spend. a basic twenty gallon tank ($20 bucks), some acrylic (a few dollars more), some sealant (again, just a few dollars), some macro-algae (dirt cheap), maybe some additional plumbing (again, very cheap) and a return pump (Mag drive for ~$60) and you're in business -- you could probably do it all for under $100.

Another option would be a HOB refugium which is also fairly cheap.

But yeah -- to answer your question, I'd clean your filter cannisters out very frequently. Maybe someone who uses one in a marine tank could advise you as to how frequently, but my guess would be weekly. You don't want detritus creating a nitrate factory.

I'm assuming you're also doing regular water changed -- With a DSB, I'm doing 5 gallons a week right now -- but with your high nitrates, I'd suggest doing three 25 gallon water changes over the next 4-5 days and then take another nitrate test just to see -- Single 50% changes aren't unheard of either. When doing large water changes, I like to match the new water temperature and salinity as close to the tank as possible before adding the water in.

bhenderson79 · #18 10/28/2007, 08:09 PM

Do you know of an online guide for how to set something up like that?

samb · #19 10/28/2007, 08:09 PM

This is my first post, although I've been lurking for over 2 months. I've learned so much (especially all the mistakes I've made LOL.)

Your situation is very similar to mine a month ago. The LFS that I naively relied on to get me set up in this hobby did a great job of selling me a lot of equipment but was contrary to everything I've learned lurking on RC.

I have a 60g AGA, no sump, Rena XP3 canister filter. The LFS assured me that a Coralife 2X 65w PC strip light would be more than adequate for softies and some LPSs. They also set me up with 1 maxijet 600 and 1 maxijet 1200 and said this would be more than enough flow.

Like you my corals were not doing very well. My nitrates levels were between 10-20ppm.

After reading countless threads, I came to the conclusion that I did not have enough lighting or flow for most of my corals. The canister filter was also contributing to the high nitrate levels.

I upgraded my lights with a Current retrofit kit with 8X 65w of PC lighting (I plan on switching to T5HO when I upgrade in 6 months to a 125g)

I replaced the maxijets with two Hydor Koralia 4s (absolutely love them.)

I removed all the ceramic rings (over a two week period) and all but two of the sponge filters from the XP3 cannister filter. I placed some live rock in one of the compartments and I run carbon and GFO in the other compartments. I do weekly 8 gallon water changes and clean my canister filter with each water change. This is especially important if you plan on keeping sponge filters in the cannister as they trap a lot of detritus.

After doing all this, my corals have done very well and my nitrates are between 0-5 (I'll be getting some chaeto and place in the DT until I upgrade and have a proper setup with a sump and refugium). I've added a number of corals over the last two weeks, and they are all doing very well.

As I stated earlier, I've made a lot of mistakes but am learning and have found work-arounds due to a less than ideal setup by listening to all the wise and experienced reefers here on RC (THANKS EVERYONE).

Hope this helps...good luck in this very addictive hobby.

P.S. I also signed up as a premium member for two reasons. Although I have read a lot of books, the continuing education that RC provides is a great value for the $24/year membership. Secondly, for a newbie, the ability to quickly use the search feature has been very helpful.

cd77 · #20 10/28/2007, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bhenderson79
Do you know of an online guide for how to set something up like that?

I've never done it -- yet -- so I won't even begin to try to advise you how -- but I'd suggest asking here at RC!

There are plenty of people who've done it and have explained it here. The DIY forum here at RC is great to browse through. You may want to check out http://www.melevsreef.com/allmysumps.html -- but it may be a little overwhelming from where you're coming from. My suggestion if you want to go this route is to take pictures of your setup and plumbing connections (what you have to work with) and post it in a separate thread (the DIY forum may be good for the plumbing and building the acrylic baffles for your sump)

bhenderson79 · #21 10/28/2007, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by samb

I removed all the ceramic rings (over a two week period) and all but two of the sponge filters from the XP3 cannister filter. I placed some live rock in one of the compartments and I run carbon and GFO in the other compartments. I do weekly 8 gallon water changes and clean my canister filter with each water change. This is especially important if you plan on keeping sponge filters in the cannister as they trap a lot of detritus.

Hmm, putting live rock in the filter is an interesting idea! I have plenty of live rock that's just kind of hiding in the back of my tank that i could easily steal and stuff in one of the canisters. You think it's important to get the cermamic rings out? I have quite a bit of polyfill in my filters, I suppose I can try removing most of that and replacing it with rock.

I just ordered a Koralia 3 on amazon for 40 bucks, so I should have that soon and I'll start there for some more water flow.

samb · #22 10/28/2007, 10:10 PM

I have the live rock in the canister for copepod growth and additional biological filtration.

As for the ceramic rings they are definitely nitrate factories. If your tank has been set up since February, your live rock should have developed sufficient beneficial bacteria, and I would remove gradually, maybe 1/3 each time you clean the filter.

From other threads, a number of reefers with 75g tanks find that two K3s provide adequate flow. The K4s have 1800/gph each giving me 60X turnover. I did have to experiment with how I positioned them in order to avoid sandstorms. They provide a nice dispersed flow (not sure who you ordered from but mine came with flow adapters which provides an even greater dispersion), I have no deadspots in my 60g and my fish love 'surfing' in the current.

capn_hylinur · #23 10/29/2007, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bhenderson79
I just did some water tests.

Calcium = about 460, which looks pretty good
pH = 8.3 to 8.4
Ammonia = 0
Nitrates = looks like about 10-20 ppm

I agree the nitrates are too high for a reef tank.

what are your readings for magnesium and alkalinity?

and what are you dosing with to keep up your water chemistry.

I agree that I wouldn't rush out and buy new lighting--not with soft corals.

capn_hylinur · #24 10/29/2007, 08:15 AM

It is actually quite cheap to setup a refugium--this cost in total about 50 bucks:

capn_hylinur · #25 10/29/2007, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bhenderson79
Hmm, putting live rock in the filter is an interesting idea! I have plenty of live rock that's just kind of hiding in the back of my tank that i could easily steal and stuff in one of the canisters. You think it's important to get the cermamic rings out? I have quite a bit of polyfill in my filters, I suppose I can try removing most of that and replacing it with rock.

I just ordered a Koralia 3 on amazon for 40 bucks, so I should have that soon and I'll start there for some more water flow.

live rock in the cansister filter---would depend on the flow in judging how useful----live rock is more effective in a sump where you can baffle off a reduced flow area for the live rock and the bacteria can congregate without being swept away.

The most effective use of a canister filter would be to remove everything and run carbon in it.