What's appropriate punishment for a 6 yr old lying ?

[BigSkyBart]

Page 3!!

OWNED BY:

[TheBimbo]

Christy...

[joeychitwood]

Originally posted by davidryder
Most kids that are hit growing up have a lot of behavioral problems that are just forgotten or overcome when they become adults.

Absolute, total BS unsubstantiated by the research.

[andrewsmart]

you guys have birch trees right.

[davidryder]

Originally posted by joeychitwood
Absolute, total BS unsubstantiated by the research.

The point is corporal punishment is hardly tolerated now and will not be for much longer. You don't have to believe it for it to be true. And the information that 'substantiates' my BS is in the first link.

"Children whose parents use corporal punishment to correct unacceptable behavior show more antisocial behavior over a long period of time, regardless of race and socioeconomic status, and regardless of whether the mother provides cognitive stimulation and emotional support (Gunnoe & Mariner, 1997; Kazdin, 1987; Patterson, DeBaryshe, & Ramsey, 1989; Straus, Sugarman, & Giles-Sims, 1997)."

"Children who are spanked regularly are more likely over time to cheat or lie, be disobedient at school, bully others, and show less remorse for wrongdoing (Straus, Sugarman, & Giles-Sims, 1997)."

There are probably 5-6 others on that page. All behaviors that are correlated to spanking that we as adults either forget or overcome.

I guarantee you that any parenting or child behavior class you sit through will cover corporal punishment. And it's probably safe to say that they won't be preaching about the benefits of it.

[Muttling]

hmmmm


Seems like an appropriate time for an IBTL.

[Anemone]

Originally posted by davidryder
There are probably 5-6 others on that page. All behaviors that are correlated to spanking that we as adults either forget or overcome.

Well, as my research-oriented professors used to preach, correlation does not equal causality.

Kevin

[Anemone]

My points exactly:

http://faculty.biola.edu/paulp/Larzelere602.html

And a more thorough discussion of the pros and cons of corporal punishment... including a discussion of debunking the "moral" attacks on corporal punishment....

http://www.corpun.com/benatar.htm

Kevin

[joeychitwood]

Originally posted by davidryder
And the information that 'substantiates' my BS is in the first link.

Your statement on page two reads, "Most kids (my emphasis) that are hit growing up have a lot of behavioral problems that are just forgotten or overcome when they become adults." None of the citations you quote substantiate the fact that most kids will have the problems you describe. Edward Tufte, Professor of Statistics at Yale says, "Empirically observed covariation is a necessary but not sufficient condition for causality."

I've been an academic physician for 22 years, with Associate Clinical Professorships at three universities at various times. One of the quickest ways to completely discredit one's credibility in an academic discussion is to make a false claim supposedly backed by "the studies." The fact is that entire generations of humans have grown up with corporal punishment in their pasts, and "most" do not have behavioral problems caused by such punishment.

[Anemone]

Originally posted by joeychitwood
Edward Tufte, Professor of Statistics at Yale says, "Empirically observed covariation is a necessary but not sufficient condition for causality."

Hey,

Originally posted by Anemone
correlation does not equal causality.

Kevin

[joeychitwood]

Exactly, Kevin. The fact that we think alike must indicate that we have the same genetics and therefore, the same parents.

[davidryder]

Those are very valid points! But I'm not writing a research paper nor am I trying to create a flawless argument. If I could do that there would be nothing to debate.

As far as correlated evidence goes, behavioral science unfortunately is of exactly that nature. Much of what we know in the way of behavioral science is offered as correlated evidence. That's the whole reason there is a debate. But there is a strong consensus among psychologists and behaviorists that corporal punishment causes more problems than it's worth.

[kfisc]

Cripes! A thread right up my field and I missed the entire thing. Davidryder quotes Kazdin in there somewhere, a Yale guy who pretty much wrote the book on behavioral reinforcement. Several of them. A pretty cool guy, actually; he emailed me when I was trying to put together a group using his stuff.

So that's all I've got to say about that.

'Yup.

[beerguy]

Originally posted by BigSkyBart
Cut the heads of his GI Joes & tell him they lied too

I still like this one best.

[chainsaw5vent]

each child is a little different. one may need only a stern look to break them down, whereas the other may need a major spanking to solve the issue, along with loss of priveleges.

if i have reminded a child of mine to do a chore, i expect it to get done.
1. they do have the out of saying 'ooops. i forgot and take care of it right now...' no harm no foul as long as it gets done.
2. if they chose to lie about it, that is a wilfull choice and needs to be dealt with.
3. open defiance in my face brings out the worst in all parties.

last night, my 15 y.o. boy was reminded to put toilet paper in the downstairs bathroom 4 times. so at 3 a.m. i woke him up and made him go downstairs with paper for the roll.

one of my gentler techniques for correction is to wake the offender up 1-4 times at night to drive home the point of 'thou shalt not sass mommy, nor shall you maintain the foolishness of defiance in this household...' during these times of wakeup, they are given needed jobs (laundry/scrub floors/bathrooms/weeds by flashlight, etc.) around the house that mommy cannot get to during the day because she has to spend precious time and energy to deal with the foolishness.

i know that some folks won't agree with these techniques, but it is much better than using the old coach's technique of grabbing the facemask and shaking real hard to get across the fact that i'm extremely disappointed in your behavior.

besides, they need to uphold mommy on the shiniest pedestal and keep it polished. my job is to make sure that happens.

[joeychitwood]

One of my favorite papers from the British Medical Journal (BMJ)

Parachute use to prevent death and major trauma related to gravitational challenge: systematic review of randomised controlled trials. Gordon C S Smith, professor1, Jill P Pell, consultant2 Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, Cambridge University, Cambridge CB2 2QQ, 2 Department of Public Health, Greater Glasgow NHS Board, Glasgow G3 8YU

Abstract

Objectives: To determine whether parachutes are effective in preventing major trauma related to gravitational challenge.

Design: Systematic review of randomised controlled trials.

Data sources: Medline, Web of Science, Embase, and the Cochrane Library databases; appropriate internet sites and citation lists.

Study selection: Studies showing the effects of using a parachute during free fall.

Main outcome measure: Death or major trauma, defined as an injury severity score > 15.

Results: We were unable to identify any randomised controlled trials of parachute intervention.

Conclusions: As with many interventions intended to prevent ill health, the effectiveness of parachutes has not been subjected to rigorous evaluation by using randomised controlled trials. Advocates of evidence based medicine have criticised the adoption of interventions evaluated by using only observational data. We think that everyone might benefit if the most radical protagonists of evidence based medicine organised and participated in a double blind, randomised, placebo controlled, crossover trial of the parachute.

The medicalisation of free fall: It is often said that doctors are interfering monsters obsessed with disease and power, who will not be satisfied until they control every aspect of our lives (Journal of Social Science, pick a volume). It might be argued that the pressure exerted on individuals to use parachutes is yet another example of a natural, life enhancing experience being turned into a situation of fear and dependency. The widespread use of the parachute may just be another example of doctors' obsession with disease prevention and their misplaced belief in unproved technology to provide effective protection against occasional adverse events.

[Sk8r]

Mmm, I got smacked frequently, even casually, with appropriate force to the size I was, and look how normal I am. Do we assume because cat mamas routinely slap their kittens that that's the reason they're predators when they grow up? I just think in this case, while I'm ordinarily pro corporal punishment, the application of ice cream and straight talk is a good place to start.

[Pharmboy]

No No No!!! Hey man, if you have the old GI Joe figures/toys, it'll help pay for the kids college tuition. Keep his GI Joe and old transformers, they might be worth something on Ebay. Or you can sell them to support your saltwater hobby.

Man, I wished I kept my Star Wars stuff..now I have $60k in student loans...

I remember sliding a firecracker perfectly in the back hole of the figures just to see them explode...should of gone into EOD.

[steve70]

when i was youger if i was bad i was grounded for at least a week.

[steve70]

oh, forgot to mention, got spanked acationally

[davidryder]

LOL

[davidryder]

This was a good thread, I'm glad that for the MOST part that we were able to engage a debate intellectually without any childish outbursts. I'm constantly learning and have learned a few things here. Thanks!

[crp]

I got BEAT quite a few times as a child/teen, with spoons, belts, flyswatters, yardsticks, anything the wicked step mother could get her hands on and anywhere on the body she could hit me. Her aim wasn't very good.

Did I spank my kids? You betcha! There is a difference between abuse and discipline. A couple of good swats on the arse to emphasize your point is needed at times.

[BigSkyBart]

quote:
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Originally posted by BigSkyBart
Cut the heads of his GI Joes & tell him they lied too
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by beerguy
I still like this one best.

me too!!!!!

[BrianD]

If the GI Joes are "correct", you could scare him even more.