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  #1  
Old 12/13/2007, 05:50 PM
merlin9696 merlin9696 is offline
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News article about the death of coral reefs

http://www.livescience.com/environme...oral-acid.html


Hope it was ok to post this here. Thought it was interesting but sad.
  #2  
Old 12/17/2007, 01:19 AM
kaptken kaptken is offline
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Oh yes Merlin! Good Post!

There has been much study on ocean acidification the past few years. It seems that the amount of CO2 the oceans have absorbed has already reduced the average PH of the top 1500 foot layer of the ocean from 8.32( pre industrial revolution) to 8.16 PH now. and declining faster.

I have read some recent studies that suggest the PH of the upper ocean, the reef habitat, will drop below 8.00 in as few as 20-30 years, Given the current rate of increasing CO2 pollution .
And we all know why we struggle to keep our tanks PH above 8.0.

http://www.climateark.org/shared/sea...climatearchive


below 8 and certainly lower most corals that fix calcium from sea water can't extract enough to maintain their carbonate structure, or shells of crabs and shrimp and clams, and most important, the micro planktonic critters with calcium structures, the base of the ocean food chain.

And here is the rub. It's all from the CO2 we produce directly or indirectly. Driving cars, and producing electicity are the two majority sources of increasing CO2 emissions. One gallon of gasoline produces roughly 19.5 pounds of CO2. The CO2 emissions to generate a Kilowatt hour of electric power varries from state to state, depending on the local fuel mix of coal, nat gas, nuclear and hydro. My state, De. is about the national average, at roughly 2 pounds of CO2 per KWHR of electricity.

So, at that average rate, burning one 175 watt MH bulb 12 hours a day, emits about 1500 pounds of CO2 per year. two bulbs..?? Well,, more CO2 than the average car weighs per year.

Global warming is rapidly harming the oceans and reefs that give us the corals and fish we all love through warming and acidification. We have met the enemy, And it is us.

A solution??? Go Greenhouse with natural light, or solar PV power for our tanks.

Oh, and maybe drive an AIR CAR sometime in the future,

http://www.theaircar.com/

powered from our home PV solar roof systems, of course.

I just hate stating problems without posing possible solutions.

What good would that be??

I've never faced my Kobyoshi Maru.....
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Last edited by kaptken; 12/17/2007 at 01:51 AM.
  #3  
Old 12/17/2007, 02:31 AM
samtheman samtheman is offline
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  #4  
Old 12/22/2007, 06:35 PM
Saboral Saboral is offline
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How can 1 gallon of gasoline at approx 8lbs per gallon churn out 19+ pounds of carbon dioxide? I realize the combusted carbon combines with 2 additional oxygens, but CO2 is a much lighter molecule then the complex aliphatic hydrocarbons gasoline is made from. I am not arguing this but compared to industry (including power generation) cars are a small chunk of the CO2 output. One volcano eruption produces more CO2 then atleast the last 100 years of human activity. I am just curious where all these statistics are coming from. The big problem is there are no conclusive statistics in the "global warming" argument because all the statistics come from one special interest group or another and are all skewed in their respective favors.
  #5  
Old 12/22/2007, 08:03 PM
Lance M. Lance M. is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by kaptken
I just hate stating problems without posing possible solutions.
Too bad there are no solutions. And besides this all would of happened anyways through natural earth processes, we just happen to be speeding it up a bit.

Besides it's not going to keep getting warmer and warmer (if that in fact is happening), in fact I should by stock in winter jackets....
  #6  
Old 12/22/2007, 08:42 PM
Ephraim Ephraim is offline
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...i'm gonna back away really slowly here
  #7  
Old 12/23/2007, 01:06 AM
kaptken kaptken is offline
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I don't know how it happens. Just ask the government. They seem to have figured out how a gallon of gas can make 20 pounds of CO2 out of thin air!

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/co2.shtml

It could be magic, or, perhaps you just slept through high school chemistry class. But there it is.

Fact.

When you start your car, it's not just the gas you are burning, it's also that high SCF carburetor sucking air in too. Bringing in oxygen from the atmosphere to combine with the carbon in gasoline to pump CO2 out the exhuast. Unlike the space shuttle, Your car does not carry it's own oxygen supply in the fuel tank.

It uses the air we breath.

And thus, The Ocean gets more Acidic from CO2.
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Last edited by kaptken; 12/23/2007 at 01:36 AM.
  #8  
Old 12/29/2007, 12:39 AM
FishTruck FishTruck is offline
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If CO2 emmissions can keep us out of the next ice age, I am all for it! Do you remember in the 1970s, the big eco scare was that emitted gases would bring on the next ice age! My, how the "science / politics / rhetoric" of studying one hundred thousand year geological trends has changed in just a few decades.

I'm just sayin.
  #9  
Old 12/29/2007, 09:42 PM
josh582 josh582 is offline
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IMO all of this global warming stuff is complete bollocks, its over rated for what it is and is simply not worth the hassle.

Although it would be good if we could do something to help save the coral reefs!!
  #10  
Old 12/30/2007, 01:21 AM
aninjaatemyshoe aninjaatemyshoe is offline
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If the reefs are going to be defunct in the next 20-30 years from CO2 emissions, then stopping use of artificial lighting will do nothing to stop this. I mean, come on, the impact on the world's entire production of our tiny hobby is incredibly insignificant. I'm not saying that we shouldn't be eco-minded and conserve, but I don't think using greenhouses to grow corals is going to save the reefs. Most people don't have access to enough natural sunlight to run a light-demanding reef tank. If the reefs are truly going to be gone in that time span, then we should actually do the opposite. We should scale up caring for as many corals and focusing on propagation as much as possible. This would mean using more energy. It would also mean that we should be taking more corals out of natural reefs. If they are going to be gone soon anyway, it does no good to keep them there. If we have enough captive propagation going on while the natural reefs die off, perhaps we will be able to reseed the the oceans when the world finally gets a handle on things (if that ever happens). This is of course all assuming that the situation is as dire as some people believe. The best thing would be for corals to thrive in their natural environment. But if this is impossible, then it may very well be our hobby that manages to protect certain species from extinction.
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  #11  
Old 12/31/2007, 02:25 PM
crabbejoe crabbejoe is offline
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All the more reason to take good care of our tanks! Then the corals we love will never die.
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  #12  
Old 12/31/2007, 11:05 PM
Lance M. Lance M. is offline
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The gradual heating by the CO2 emmissions and other green house gases will actually cause another ice age to happen. It would of happened naturally though, we just sped it up.

And if the reefs are actually going to be gone in just 20-30 years even if somehow we stopped all polution and CO2 emmissions right now, it wouldn't matter, it's already too far gone. Besides are how would we get countries like China to follow suit? Even with solar power, wind power, etc. there is no cost effective way to produce energy on a grand scale to cause a change. The only form of energy that can do this is nuclear power and there would have to be so many nuclear power plants produced to cause a change it would be ridiculous. I was watching CNN whenever they had that week long program about the global climate change and such and there was an expert, one of only several in the world that study the climate over the entire planet, that said approximately 100,000 nuclear power plants would have to be built immediately to be able to lower the global temperature about one hundredth of a degree every 10 years. And we all know 100,000 nuclear power plants aren't going to pop up any time soon.

I think pretty much all of these "green" products and the we're all going to die from global warming attitude from the news is just propaganda for big businesses to make money.
  #13  
Old 01/01/2008, 12:26 AM
lvpd186 lvpd186 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ephraim
...i'm gonna back away really slowly here
LOL IBTL...
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  #14  
Old 01/03/2008, 12:51 AM
kaptken kaptken is offline
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Guys, the point is to be aware of the environmental consequences of escalting enrgy use. And Lance, your numbers are way Wrong.

The world uses about 16 Tera watts of energy now. 2 tera watts of that is electric power at any given moment. or the equivalent of 2000 standard sized 1000 mega watt nuclear generating plants.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._the_World.PNG
there are currently 438 nukes operating around the world, producing about 20% of the electric power. 103 of them still running in the USA, and 18 in canada. ours acount for 20% of our power too.

So another 1200 or so nukes to replace the coal plants is ...doable. or a combination of other means.

the problem is most of that 16 TW comes from fossil fuels, for cars, industry and heating and lighting homes, all producing the CO2 that is changing the ocean chemistry and destroying reefs.

So my point would be to be more efficient in tank energy use, and every other aspect of life and perhaps the changing attitude will make the difference.

We should at least stop and think before we jump off the cliff. So that we know what and why is about to happen next.

Like why grow frags in the bottom of a 29 inch deep tank with 250 w MH lights when a 8- 12 inch deep tank with T8s is just as bright?

Save Watts! Save a Reef!
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  #15  
Old 01/03/2008, 03:41 PM
sayn3ver sayn3ver is offline
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shallow tanks are the awsome. I just setup my 33g long and only plan on running 2x54w t5's.

If everyone just does little things, it makes a big difference when you have a couple million people doing them, much like buying stuff for your tank. Plumbing parts are pretty cheap on a 20g but when you start plumbing a big tank and you have 10 gate valves, 20 ball valves, all kinds of elbows and etc, it adds up fast.

My biggest personal achievement has been my showering habits. I used to blast the water for 10minutes, now i just have enough flow to wash the soap out of my hair and i try to be quick about (except on shaving day when it takes a little longer).
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  #16  
Old 01/03/2008, 04:36 PM
E30 E T A E30 E T A is offline
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The best thing to do is just go back to the stone age.
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  #17  
Old 01/03/2008, 08:37 PM
airinhere airinhere is offline
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I would like to point out my own rather uniqe attitude about many of the enviro-laws that have become so popular nowadays.

(Not that all of them are law, just the supporters desire them to be law.)

Imagine if you will a group of young people becoming adults during the sixties.

If they attended college, they were exposed to, if not involved with, the 'counterculture' (which is just a blanket term for people trying to determine their own path in the middle of an already well developed society).

If they did not attend college the likelihood was great that they were involved in the Vietnam war or had to become civil disobedients (and thus become part of the counterculture.)

This is not an absolute, but the general idea is that the people who wanted to create a new society were largely either well educated or criminals.

The criminals are a rather negligible part of this situation, but do serve to encourage radicalism on the part of their better educated peers.

Those who attended college found that they could engage in the government they sought to change and were largely succesful in their endeavors to create the sorts of changes they found to be most important. In a word, they experienced power.

Funny thing about power is that it almost always manages to corrupt.

First, those educated men and women found that they were able to effect change, soon they enjoyed the feeling of power they experienced when they gained public support.

Eventually, those educated individuals started to enjoy great sucess in their efforts to creat the brave new world they desired.

They did not win every fight, and started to develop fragmented groups that would sometimes be at odds with one another.

But these were well educated people. They found a comfortable place int he world they lived in.

Eventually, they found they had won almost all the fights they sought to engage in. Thats when things get wierd.

They started fighting for the sake of fighting. They would spend less time on creating realistic solutions and more time focusing on the next battle. They were becoming consumed by their own power.

By putting a pretty face on any topic they chose to engage in, they soon realized they could "sell icemakers to eskimos" and seem like they were being helpful. Victory became more important than the cause.

And that is where our society is at right now. Those young men and women are grown into their fifties. They run our nations companies and are the leaders in our government.

They started off to make the world a better place.

Now they just like to fight.

The cause has become unimportant.

Its all about power.

They like telling people what to do.

"Its for their best interests" they would say.

"We are trying to save the (fill in the blank)"

But its really about power.

And they are well educated and have decades of experience.


Sorry to be so long winded.
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  #18  
Old 01/03/2008, 10:11 PM
Ephraim Ephraim is offline
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in before the
  #19  
Old 01/04/2008, 01:48 AM
kaptken kaptken is offline
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Yes, shallow tanks are much more efficient. Less depth, less water, less salt, less pumps, less heaters, and less lighting required. Equals = Less Energy. Less IS More. More corals and better growth.

Nice rant on the 60's, and 70's Air-in. I take it that was all before your time. But the only problem is , Mother nature only responds to changes in the physical world, not metaphysical, theoretical or political opinions. You made no case about the facts. Such as rising CO2 levels and it's efect on climate and nature and the chemistry of water. Both fresh and saltwater.

We are all familiar with acid rain and the effects on fresh water lakes and rivers and aquatic life. and forests. Which all ends up, eventually flowing into the Sea. Adding acidity to what the oceans already absorb directly from the air and rain.

Try adding a teaspoon full of vinegar to your tank each day, with no additional buffer. Let us know how it goes. That is pretty much what atmospheric CO2 is doing to the oceans.

The question is: Knowing the source of the problem, do we have the will to do something about it. We certainly have the knowledge. It does require a lifestyle change. Something like switching from horse and buggy to motor cars was, or printed newspapers to the internet.

Just imagine if we hadn't changed to cars 100 years ago,and we all had two horses in the garage today. Why we would be KNEE-DEEP in horse flop by now in traffic jams on the freeway. Slippin and slidin every which way.

Change is good! The next home I build will have a greenhouse built-in to take advantage of the free sun, among other things. Yes, I'm just A throw back to the sixties. "Free" is my middle name.
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  #20  
Old 01/04/2008, 09:55 AM
samtheman samtheman is offline
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Life style changes won't do my friends. You have to learn to live without, any transportation, heat and light. With the growing population, that still won't be enough. Good by.
  #21  
Old 01/04/2008, 12:24 PM
GreshamH GreshamH is offline
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So how does this pertain to this forum itself? I see nothing in this thread about propagation
Quote:
Coral Propagation and Aquaculture
A forum to discuss Coral Propagation Techniques and Aquaculture.
Wrong forum guys, there's a place for this right here:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/fo...s=&forumid=225

Quote:
Responsible Reefkeeping
A forum for discussion of environmental and ethical issues surrounding the hobby with a focus on ways that hobbyists can promote positive change
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  #22  
Old 01/09/2008, 12:20 AM
kaptken kaptken is offline
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well, propagation is not just about how to clone coral frags, but also doing it economically. Less energy is less expense. and more environmentally friendly too. It seems the end goal of fraggers is to provide home grown coral seed stock to fellow hobbyists without taking from nature and/or for trade or sale.

to accomplish that in a sustainable way means it has to be economical and meet all the above agendas. Energy is the biggest cost for most of the systems i view on the forums. Yeah a lot of them look great but are energy hogs. They are like driving a tank or D-9 to WAWA for a cup of coffee to go.

If you can get the same effect and results with less energy, you have done something. For serious propagators, a green house is the best way to go. True, most reefers can't add a GH to the house or apartment, but that doesnt preclude steps to lower energy cost, with shallow tanks, and lower watt lighting and more efficient cascading flow systems, like one pump cascading through 3 tanks. each growing corals suited for an increasing nutrient range.

In the near future solar PV power will cost less. It's growing very fast, and in 5 years will cost half as much, now that the supply bottleneck has been addressed. New silicon plants going online now and more each year.

http://www.climateark.org/shared/rea...x?linkid=91120

in 5 years the annual installed solar capacity will be equivalent to 13 new nukes per year. and continue to grow. We don't build Nukes that fast, I know, i spent a good deal of my life building a bunch.

So, solar can be a viable alternative to indoor coral farmers too. In fact, less expensive than grid power. Time to plan ahead for the solar powered system of the near future. learn the terms and equipment and be cost competitive.

Samtheman, you dont need to do without. With cheap solar to run the reef and house, you can buy an AIR CAR, refill it with cheap solar power from the roof, and drive around carbon free for a fraction of the cost of gasoline, by then.

http://www.climateark.org/shared/rea...x?linkid=91148

Well, I like to think my next house will have a green house coral farm, with solar power on the roof, and ground source heat pump for heat/ac and an AIR CAR in the garage to deliver my frags to the live fish store for sale. Retired folk need some extra income too.

SOOO,,That's my coral propagation plan. And it should cost a lot less by then too. Electric utility rates have only just started to rise. and will keep on rising with fuel and transmission costs. when you install solar today, and include it in the mortgage, your power costs are fixed and frozen for the the next 30 years, giving you a big edge on the smudge pots down the road.

And hey, if it helps make the world more carbon neutral, so much the better.

My ideal green house tank would be about 10 foot wide by 15 or 20 foot long, and with soft sandbed, and 20 inches of knee-deep water with rock and corals piled in channels i can wade through, barefoot, like a tidal reef pool. it would have to be low to the ground, and be a look down pool. maybe a side view panel too.
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  #23  
Old 01/09/2008, 07:10 PM
GreshamH GreshamH is offline
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While the proceeding posts may have been on topic, the OG post and article aren't.

Quote:
News article about the death of coral reefs
http://www.livescience.com/environm...coral-acid.html


Hope it was ok to post this here. Thought it was interesting but sad.
Even he questioned if this was the right forum

Reason I say this is it would be nice to get more traffic to the other forum. The discussion is good
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  #24  
Old 01/09/2008, 09:35 PM
brandon7491 brandon7491 is offline
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that is so much propoganda about how cars and electricity are causing global warming. For years we have been driving cars,using electricity ect... So why all of a sudden is there global warming? Well its the liberals in congress using scare tactis and trying to get you the American People to become scared and rely on the government for everything. Yes i do believe we need to protect our oceans and reefs but all of this liberal propoganda is way out of hand. Think about what your saying, If I use a car,use electricity then i am contributing to the warming of the WORLD! If this were truly the case the world would have melted yesterday. Do u really think that if the people in the USA stop using electricity and hybrid cars the rest of the world is going to follow? Nope! There is no proof that we are the causing of global warming. Algores film "An Inconvient Truth" was all his oponion there was no fact, and in science there is no oponion its either real or its not. Also Algore,Hiliary Clinton have huge mansions and use tons of power. hell algores son has a freaking masauriti(dont know if i spelled it right) they all have a long line of suvs where ever they go. Do u people expect Hilary to ride up in a hybrid rather than a mercedes? NO! Yes we need to protect our oceans,reefs,world,forests ect but we dont need to lie about it in the process
  #25  
Old 01/10/2008, 07:24 AM
samtheman samtheman is offline
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Will your solar power system use batteries?
 

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