Ph woes

[Lucky Strike]

im having a problems with my ph in my newer tank. I setup the tank and using instant ocean salt the ph read around 7.6 after i filled it up using my hanna moniter. after getting my saliferts organized (i just moved) the hanna and salifert agreed, and i started to try and adjust my ph slowly, with seachem ph 8.3. i tested my alk and it was testing off the chart. i switched over to kalkwasser, and two weeks of small adjustments these are my parameters:

ph 8.00
mg 1365
Alk 16
Cal 375

my alk is crazy high and my ph has always been really low, and i have to use kalk to keep it up to 8. my skimmer has been changed to pull outside fresh air, and it hasnt helped that much. reccomendations?

[bertoni]

The alkalinity is very high because the pH 8.3 product is a high-pH alkalinity supplement. I'd stop dosing that. I'm not sure that the pH test meter is correct, if it measured 7.6 on IO. How recently has it been calibrated, and with which buffers?

This article describes an aeration test that might be useful:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/index.htm

[Lucky Strike]

Bertoni, (thanks first and formost) i figured that out as the directions indicate that, and i stopped dosing that as soon as i tested the alk . i then switched to kalkwasser, and later read on a reefkeeping article that it was the think to do. ive stopped dosing the seachem 8.3 over a week ago.

the hanna meter (HI8711E) was calibrated using hanna calibration fluid (7.01, and 10.01) about 1.5 weeks ago. ive tested the meter with a salifert ph test kit, one old and one just purchased 2 weeks ago, and they all coencide.

i did read about the aireation test, but i didnt have the time to test it, and just decided to run the skimmer to outside air, to elimate that possiblity all together, as we are renting from a newly constructed apartment and the article mentions newer, tighter built homes having the most trouble with co2.

i measure 8.1 from a newly mixed batch of io, but after a couple of days, just lr, no lights, it was reading 7.6. i didnt have the time to be diligent with my maintance when the tank was first setup.

i dont really know of a way to get the ph up, and not raise the alk, other than just dosing kalk like i am. im trying to up it .1 daily, but its been challenging to keep it in the 8.0 without dumping in lots of kalk water. just dripping it in has been keeping the ph constant, or letting it fall slightly.

i dont know where the line is for a cal, alk storm either, and with the alk so high, im neverous of a storm occuring. would switching salts be adviseable, or doing a large water change to bring the levels back in line? how would i bring up the ph on new water and not the alk. i believe new io alk is around 9, and ph is 8.1.

[bertoni]

That calibration approach sounds good to me. One other possibility is electrical interference, so you could try testing a cup of water, away from the tank.

I suspect the apartment is simply too high in CO2. Running a line to the skimmer doesn't necessarily solve this problem, since aeration through other surfaces can dominate. If you could open up the window for a few hours or try the aeration test outside, that might tell us a lot.

[Lucky Strike]

i have no powerheads, its all external flow through multiple darts. im not trying to debunk your theory though, as covering all angles is a good place to start. 2 ph salifert and the hanna all match, so im not too worried about the probe being off.

unfortuatly, i live in florida, and its simply too hot out to afford opening the windows, right now. i will keep an eye out on overnight temps, and may open a window when the temps get more inline. however in the mean time ill try the c02 test and post the results when i get them.

all the while is a alk of 16 ok? is an immediate w/c necessary for the health of a clam and some corals?

[bertoni]

Most often, that alkalinity level doesn't seem to cause any problems. If any animals start showing signs of distress, some water changes would help.

[Percula9]

You didn't say whether using the buffer to 8.3 helped to maintain the PH or not. I noticed your calcium was a little low. Raise your calcium, this should lower your alkalinity. If your running a protein skimmer this should drive the CO2 out, and bring up PH. Try reef builder this has less of an immediate impact on PH. Alkalinity and calcium need to balance each other. Reef Pure makes a buffer that has calcium in with it. Kent makes a product called Liquid reactor, this is a calcium buffering solution in one. It clouds the water for some time, so dose at night water will be clear by the morning.

[bertoni]

At those levels, adding calcium won't make a noticeable change in alkalinity. Liquid Reactor and similar products basically don't work:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...y2002/chem.htm

There are one-part supplements based on calcium acetate, but they are too expensive for large tanks for most people.

The alkalinity level in that tank is already high, so adding Reef Builder is a bad idea.

[Lucky Strike]

hypoytheically speaking, if c02 is the main cause, what are possible opitions as to keeping the ph at acceptable levels? will a constant kalk drip drive up the alk levels like i am experiencing? is a planted refugium an option?

thanks for all the input.

[bertoni]

Sometimes, a planted refugium helps, as does a limewater drip. In some cases, the CO2 level and aeration rates are such that nothing much helps.

[Lucky Strike]

just to inform:

my central air unit has no outside air percentage to its intake. i have opened a window next to the tank, and my ph went from 8.04 to 8.22 in a few hours, and a low of 8.09 over night with the window open. kalk has been stopped and alk was fixed with water changes. i am going to keep the window open 24/7. the apartment has become noticably fresher as well

[Billybeau1]

It's amazing what a little fresh air can do to a tank.

[Boomer]

Lucky

seachem ph 8.3

Do you mean SeaChems Marine Buffer. Do not use this buffer in a reef tank it will trun it into a mess. If you want to use a SeaChem buffer use;

THIS




NOT THIS

[Tigger240]

boomer, i only have reef buffer, and reef builder, and seachem calcium suppliment. i am truely wondering though, from what ive been told, with a high alk, and low ph, kalk isnt really the best thing to be doing? as it will keep the alk high, correct? and high alk will burn sps corals correct?


trust me the last thing i ever wanted to do was try to ac the outside..

[Boomer]

Yes, that is correct. Alk sup's are not suppose to be used to raise pH but only ALk. 99 % of the time low pH is from CO2. Your Alk is way to high but it will come down on its own in time. There is no good way to lower Alk accept to do water changes. This high Alk may also be casuing the drop of your Ca++. High Alk does help better in keeping the pH from dropping at a faster rate when CO2 is introduced vs. a lower Alk when CO2 is introduced. Some other things to look at.

Low pH: Causes and Cures
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/index.htm

[Tigger240]

thanks for the link.

[Canarygirl]

Alk sup's are not suppose to be used to raise pH but only ALk. 99 % of the time low pH is from CO2. Your Alk is way to high but it will come down on its own in time. There is no good way to lower Alk accept to do water changes. This high Alk may also be casuing the drop of your Ca++. High Alk does help better in keeping the pH from dropping at a faster rate when CO2 is introduced vs. a lower Alk when CO2 is introduced.

I'd like to jump in as I've had a similar problem. Introduced a Calc Reactor and mistakenly used Reef Builder instead of Reef Buffer to keep my ph levels from dropping. My alk got up to 16 too. I basically turned off my reactor and my alk has slowly been dropping over the past two weeks. It's now at 9. When it gets to 8 I plan to turn on the reactor again. (My CA has been really low during this process and I've struggled to raise it with Kent Liquid CA but I hear that is not the best product for that purpose...)

Anyway, when I turn on my reactor again should I use Reef Buffer if needed to keep my ph stable without inflating my alkalinity?

[bertoni]

The reactor is already adding alkalinity to the system, so adding a buffer will cause alkalinity to rise too much. A limewater drip is a balanced additive that can help with pH problems. More aeration might help as well.