YWG: lost *another* nest!

[NicoleC]

1) I don't know
2) I don't know



The way I look at it, from MY perspective there's not that much size difference. From their perspective, obviously there is one or you wouldn't have to feed the smaller s-strain to start. I don't know if it's a big enough issue to worry about or seriously affect their development if they had to spend more time eating. It doesn't SEEM like they spend all day eating anymore, at least not aggressively.

On the metamorphosis, my notes from oceanarus' threads indicate that they have them moving to the bottom at about 12 days and should be all or at least mostly settled out by day 20. Then they start turning yellow and have a "more defined shape" at 25 days -- which is when I am guessing the real metamorphosis is? That's a ways away yet.

However, mine seem to be progressing faster than their first batch and are larger. For example, they said 1/4" - 3/8" at 20 days -- so unless mine are about to settle down and spend more time developing than growing, they are already the same size.

But my notes are only from their first batch as documented on RC, so there may be an acceptable variation from hatch to hatch. It seems that mine may have started larger anyway (they seemed bigger than my previous larvae) and the nest was so big and heavy it was a problem almost immediately.

[ediaz]

I am sure the larvae will be able to make it on the super small "S" strain, I have raised clownfish on rotifers alone with no artemia.

All our gobies were raised on the gigantic L strain and green banded gobie larvae are the smallest i have seen. They also eat algae . I don't think there much difference in size to affect the development. For me if the fish takes "S" it will take "L" at the same stage. I have a friend who used "S" to raise a very difficult specie, and now uses "L"


But again I'll be contradicted by Joyce's book "GOBIES"

Regarding the bacterial infection, if that will be the case you will not have many survivors since you did not take any action against it. The bacterial infection will not go away by itself.

They will spawn again, frustration comes with this don't let it get to you, if you can. Welcome to our world...

Ed

[NicoleC]

I am sure the larvae will be able to make it on the super small "S" strain, I have raised clownfish on rotifers alone with no artemia.

Good to know. Originally I had considered skipping the L-strain, got antsy and decided to go for it, but I guess I am back to plan A anyway.

All our gobies were raised on the gigantic L strain and green banded gobie larvae are the smallest i have seen. They also eat algae . I don't think there much difference in size to affect the development. For me if the fish takes "S" it will take "L" at the same stage. I have a friend who used "S" to raise a very difficult specie, and now uses "L"

But again I'll be contradicted by Joyce's book "GOBIES"

I am wondering if it may have something to do with the health/size of the larvae, and as pairs mature they produce larger larvae... which would be able to eat the L-strain. Heaven knows Alan and Amy went through hoops trying to feed these guys before they got them to eat s-strain.

I didn't know Joyce had a Goby book -- I had better add it to the list of things to buy.

Regarding the bacterial infection, if that will be the case you will not have many survivors since you did not take any action against it. The bacterial infection will not go away by itself.

That makes sense, but what kind of action could I take with larvae? I assumed that any kind of antibiotic treatment would probably be lethal to the larvae.

I do not appear to be experiencing any more losses, so perhaps the oxygenation theory was correct. Or maybe it was something else I don't even know I don't know about.

They will spawn again, frustration comes with this don't let it get to you, if you can. Welcome to our world...

Ed

Yes, mama is looking fat already and has put the pistol shrimp to work -- although they never seem to do anything in particular; maybe she is just cranky when she's pregnant. She won't spawn again for another 10-14 days, and by then I should know if these babies are going to have a chance at making it.

Thanks for sharing your experience, Ed.

[NicoleC]

Looking for the Wilkerson book, I came across this internet version of a old Breeder's Registry article.

The Yellow Prawn goby, Cryptocentrus cinctus, has also been reported to the Breeder's Registry database. Information is not as complete for this species, but the pair was maintained in captivity for 2 years and were moved to a new tank 6 months before spawning. No physical differences were notated aside from the possibility of size which was 80 - 90 mm (~3 - 3.25 inches).

Hatching was typical, occurring after dark. The larvae were ~2.0 mm in length and some yolk sac was visible. The larvae were fed with rotifers enriched with SELCO. After the first week the larvae settled to the bottom of the tank. At day 15 Artemia nauplii and copepoda were introduced (again enriched with SELCO). Metamorphosis occurred at 20 - 25 days and high mortalities were experienced.

Database details here:
http://www.breedersregistry.org/database/CRYCIN01.htm

[NicoleC]

Just a quick update here on Day 14. I took pictures yesterday, but they came out very poorly.

I couldn’t stand it anymore tonight and carefully siphoned the bottom of the larval tank with a tiny piece of rigid tubing on airline hose. I sucked up two… at least I hope it was only two because I only found two before I dumped the junk, but I looked for a LONG time. I don't think I've lost anymore, but I also don't see any signs of permanent settling; they are still spending most of their undisturbed time swimming in the water column. *I* wouldn't want to settle in that nasty gunk on the bottom, either.

I finally got my new plankton collectors in, and using the 250 as a screen I siphoned out the rest of the water for the water change. The rotifers were getting quite dense, but this thinned them out a lot. They are still denser than I would like! I will do the same again tomorrow. Still using parent tank water for water changes.

With the naked eye, they seem to be getting a little depth to their chest/stomach region, but still with the long thin tail training out behind. Possibly I am seeing fat tummies from pigging out, or perhaps this is a sign of them slowly turning into a "goby" shape.

On an unrelated note, I had a heater shatter in one of the rotifer cultures. Since I have 2 healthy S cultures and one weak L culture, I just cleaned up the bucket and it is full of bleach solution as I write this. NASTY smell! Cause of breakage, unknown. Probably a poorly made heater.

I am also trying the old decapsulated “hatching� brine shrimp I bought from Brine Shrimp Direct a while back to see if it will still hatch; I started that tonight. While that report in the Breeder’s Registry says they started BBS at 15 days, I think I will wait a bit more. They don't look big enough for them yet and I don't think there's any hurry right now.

[NicoleC]

P.S. They are quite a bit stronger swimmers than they used to be. I just peeked in with the flashlight and watched one swim against the current from the airstone with not difficulty. This is a long way from the current tossing them around in the first week!

[flyhigh123]

good job.... been following this thread for a while... so fun to read... and good luck!

[Morgman]

What brand heater broke on you Nicole?

[NicoleC]

I can't recall at the moment, but I know it's discontinued so you're not likely to accidentally buy one. However, it was NIB as of less than 2 months ago

I run titanium heaters in the larval tank and the reef tank, so no worries there.

[Morgman]

I bought a bunch of Finnex Glass 50 watt heaters and all I can say is don't waste your money. I have some largerFinnex titanium heaters and they are nice. But their glass heaters, especially the control/plug element are a joke.

[NicoleC]

Heater was a Proquatics Hydromatic.

Possibly, salt creep or a little moisture got up above the water line.

[NicoleC]

Time for more baby pics! It's Day 17.

I saw a dead one today who had metamorphosized. Thinking of Alan and Amy’s remarks about them going into shock and laying still on the bottom of the tank, I left the body alone but did take a photo. When I came home, I really could see many babies, but lately that has been the case. Then I’ll go in at night with the flashlight and see them swimming all over the place, so I’m not yet worried about losses during metamorphosis.

Of the two fishy models I captured for photos, one was definately more developed than the other. See photo notes below.

A couple of days ago I decided to see if the hatching decapsulated baby brine shrimp eggs would still hatch. I’ve had them for about 6 months. To my surprise, they hatched! Yesterday I added a few to the tank (since the one report said BBS at 15 days), and quickly realized there was NO way my baby gobies could eat these BBS. Of course, I now have even bigger brine shrimp swimming around my baby tank, but at least I didn’t add very many!

My L strain culture finally took off a couple of days ago. I had decided to just let it sit and not to water changes, etc. to see what happened, and off it went. Definitely slower growing than the S culture and not anywhere near as dense yet.

"Hi!":


Lousy side view:


Top view, a little yellow showing, a little goby shape happening, and look at those fins! No wonder they are swimming so fast -- this is the more advance of the (living) two fishy models I used today:


The dead one. Clearly much more developed than the others:

[TippyToeX]

Wonderful pictures! It's amazing how much deatil can be made out at such a young age.

[NicoleC]

Lights are out now and I just did the flashlight check. Still plenty of babies swimming around.

I wonder where they hide during the day? Over the past 3-4 days they have been scarce in the daytime, and they don't look THAT much different that I should be having trouble finding them. Perhaps they tend to settle during the day (they seem to like hunting along the edges) and swim at night right now?

If I make it past metamorphosis...

[NicoleC]

I am still not seeing the gobies settle out like I am expecting, unless I just can’t see them on the green gunk-covered bottom (which is quite possible!). Nor am I sure I'd want to sit in that, if I were them. I'm going to add some pieces of PVC tomorrow for some clean resting spots -- ones which I can clean without fear of sucking up babies.

Mama and papa surprised me with a spawn a whole week early yesterday. So much for feeding them less! The nest is quite large, too. I am cleaned up and waiting for the eggs, which I have left with papa and haven’t fallen down yet.

Pictures were tough. Not only are they fast, but they are quite aware now that they have been captured and get agitated. Photo sessions will need to be short from now on to avoid traumatizing them. One most of the babies, you can see dark lines running down the spine and, from above, dark bands across the body. Those do not show up very well in these pictures.

[NicoleC]

11/1/05
Day 21
Did a good cleaning of the tank bottom and the larvae did a fine job avoiding the siphon. I did find several dead bodies in the gunk on the bottom. I can see on some (live) babies an eye within an eye, so I think their eyes are developing right now.

Too many brine shrimp are growing in the larval tank! The biggest ones probably have more mass that the babies. During the day, the larvae are hanging out in the back left corner of the tank, but spread out at night. This was a slight tendency up until now, but today it was a full blown crowd in the back corner.

11/2/05
Day 22
I got a couple of new bodies on the bottom. I did expect losses during meta, though. Suddenly the gobies are no longer crowding in the corner, and I saw some who were possibly hanging on the back wall.

11/3/05
Day 23
This morning I saw one of the gobies on the bottom. Yes, alive! As of this evening, I could only find about 4 gobies in the water column, and about 3 or 4 on the back wall. This doesn't mean the rest are all dead, although I could not find any on the bottom. (Neither dead nor alive.) I do have the PVC "T" pieces in there, which I cannot completely see into, which may be housing gobies. Or I may just not be able to see them among the gunk at the bottom.

[NicoleC]

Update:
I can see quite a few now, most along the walls. I need to retrain myself to look in the tank differently, and focus on the walls instead. The tail fins are clearly visible and fairly large, proportionately. Also clearly visible is some dark internal structures that appear to be the intestinal tract and spine. The babies are over ¼� long.

I swear that they can see me now. They don’t appear to be afraid, but they respond to my presence (or is it the flashlight?) by watching me. They don’t appear to be attracted – or repulsed – by the flashlight. Feeding activity does seem to increase with the flashlight. Perhaps I will add more light to the tank next time.

[spk]

Nicole,

AMAZING, a wonderful read and you have recovered well with the food shortage.

I agree with Luis and Ed, do not get disheartened (sp?), we are attempting to reproduce in a 10g what nature has millions of gallons to do. It is great to read of you sucess and sad to read at the losses however you are getting results and this is what counts.

Thanks for a lovely updated diary of what is going on. Keep the updates coming.
Steve

[NicoleC]

DAY 26:

Well, it looks like I am having another rash of deaths, probably related to metamorphosis... which I expected, but I'm still not happy about.

It seems that mine are not developing as quickly as Alan and Amy recorded theirs doing, although mine at first seemed to be developing faster. Whether that is natural variation or some facet of care or nutrition, I don't know.

They seem to love hunting the edges of the glass. The rotifers often linger there and I guess it's easy pickin's. They are all still up in the water column, at least as far as I can see.

On a positive note, for the first time today I clearly saw babies with stomachs full of rotifers. Obviously they are eating or they would not have lasted this long, but I was very happy to see round, fat stomachs. I am rather glad they are not big enough for BBS yet, as I am afraid they could eat themselves to death. Is they why they are dying? I don't think so, but I could be wrong, and I am not sure what I could do about it anyway with the dense rotifer culture in there. I am slowly trying to thin the culture with water changes and lighter feedings mixed with Selcon, but I am being very conservative because I want to be sure the rotifers are good nutrition. They look brown when I water change and rinse them, so I think they are good.

I estimate 15-20 babies left, or about a < 2% survival rate so far.

[Kathy55g]

I worry about selcon. It is so oily, I worry that it will coat the surface of the water and prevent oxygen from getting in the water....

[NicoleC]

I don't have a problem with that, although I have heard to watch out for it. I don't add much and do a 50% water change every other day. Plus, I know for sure that my larval tank is full of ciliates and stuff (and the brine shrimp... who are busy making their OWN BBS now), so they may be mopping up a lot of junk.

It is odd that my larval tank is so much cleaner with the sea monkeys in it now. They are annoying and they make it hard to see the babies, but perhaps they are beneficial. Besides, at least I am having luck raising something

I did have a problem with my rotifer cultures when I first added Selcon in addition to the regular amount of algae (instead of cutting back on the algae). Big time crash, but my cultures are so dense that there were plenty left to repopulate.

[laverda]

Nicole: Darn good for the fiirst go round!

[NicoleC]

Day 27

I could only see about 4 today, but I also do not see any bodies. It's quite possible I'm just not seeing them. The brine shrimp are so much bigger and with them zipping around everywhere...

To my surprise, I was able to get pictures today. They are still quite capable of zooming about at high speed, but are no longer so inclined to do so. I guess like a kid with a new bike, once the tires are dirty and the playing card taped to the spokes gets worn out and doesn’t make such a great clatter, rushing everywhere gets old.

All of them seem to be about at the same level of development now. Perhaps the laggards and or the ones developing too fast were the ones that did not make it?



Rare bottom view:


Am I the only one that thinks it's eerie to look through the fish and see the eye on the OTHER side, too?

[spk]

Nicole,

Nice pics you have there. Yes it does seem very eerie that you are able to see straight through and see the other side.

Good luck with the rest.

Steve

[fish_fanatik]

Nicole,

I love this thread, I look for it everyday hoping there are update...thank you so much for keeping us all informed.

I was at Todais the other day so I stopped by your place hoping you would be home(you werent). I wanted to see your babies and your doggie. (I dropped by at 1ish in the afternoon so I knew the chances of you being home were slim)

Perhaps I could drop by another time to take a look.