YWG: lost *another* nest!

[NicoleC]

Tried to take pics tonight but these guys are getting incredibly fast -- I couldn't manage to scoop up more than one at a time in a beaker! I am glad they are starting to be a little more responsive to danger.

S-strain cultures #1 and #2 totally crashed last night for no reason I can determine, but #3 is going gangbusters as is the co-culture in the larval tank. For some reason, the L culture I started on Sunday just isn't taking off like it should be. There are some in there but they aren't much more than I started with. I did a 30% water change in there tonight (straining them and reserving the roitfers) just see if that sparks something.

I had planned to add a little L tonight or tomorrow, but I guess that won't be happening. They can't swim without bumping into an S rotifer, so I think they wll be okay on S for a while yet.

[NicoleC]

As of this morning (Day 9 AM, or Day 8 1/2)





They will occassionaly scoot along the bottom for a while and then swim back up in the water column. Trying to take pics was tough, since they kept clinging to the bottom!

[npaden]

Very nice!

Do you still have quite a few?

[NicoleC]

It's hard to tell how many I have and I don't really have any experience at estimating. I would say at least 200? I am not seeing any more losses, as far as I can tell, not for the past 3 days or so.

[maxvan1]

Wow...! What are you going to do with 150-200 YWG?

Pictures are amazing.

Gratz on that success so far.

[NicoleC]

Sad news.

I had a major die-off last night, and I don't know why. Water parameters check out fine (at least the ones you can test for) and everyone was swimming around vigorously last evening. The bottom is littered with the bodies of babies. As I watched, a few got up and swam away, but I don't know if they just happened to be there when I was looking, given their affinity for the bottom over the past few days. Most, though, were unmoving and definately dead.

There are still some left, roughly around 2-3 dozen. Some are big, some are small, all are looking vigorous and healthy and not the least bit stressed at all.

I didn't have time this morning to check the bodies under a microscope -- I hope they are still reasonably fresh when I get home tonight. I'm not sure what that could tell me, but it's worth a shot.

The only thing I can think of is that I had hoped to be feeding a mix of S and L by now, but the L culture just won't produce for some reason. There is a ton of S strain in the there and the babies aren't so big yet that I thought it would be an issue. My gut is telling me that's not what happened and the food was fine. Still, I fed a cube of frozen L-strain this morning to cover my bases a bit.

Wow...! What are you going to do with 150-200 YWG?

If I get the hang of this, that will be 200+ babies per month. And I have several fish stores that are eager to buy healthy captive bred YWGs.

[npaden]

Sorry to hear the bad news. Hopefully the rest will do fine.

[NicoleC]

My fear that I would return home and they would all be dead fortunately did not come true. I may have underestimated the number left, but they are getting so hard to see against the green gunk on the bottom and since they don't stay at the surface. I see a group here and a group there... and don't know how many are repeats. And I though looking at a big batch was hard!

I would say that I have 3 dozen left at a minimum, possibly 4 or 5. That seems like a very low number, especially since they haven't gone through metamorposis yet.

The bodies really didn't last until this evening. I only found a few and they were easily mashed. Under a microscope, I could see definate fins -- pelvic, I think, mayhave been pectoral, and a tail fin.

He was dead, but there were plenty of other living creatures under the microscope. Live s-strain rotifers, a dead L-strain (frozen food from this morning), and a couple of different speedy ovals that I think were ciliates -- one was about 1/10 the size of a rotifer and the other was about 1/100th of the size of a rotifer. Too small to determine features under this microscope at 450x. The larger ciliates appeared to be feeding on the carcass of the fish, or else using it as shelter, as the concentration was MUCH higher by the fish. The smaller ciliate was usually found where the larger ciliate was not. (Perhaps by design!)

Additionally, there was a long thin creature, almost as long as a rotifer but very skinny. Not a long oval like a paramecium, though; it was pointy-er at the ends.

And finally, there was a creature behind the dead L-strain rotifer that had an elephant-like trunk... and used it like one. I couldn't see if that was the whole animal or just part of it; it didn't help that it and the rotifer were snug up against the goby body. Possibly a flagellate, but "trunk" was too fat, I think. It may have had a round body.

Now, unless one of these unknown critters is a parasite, I still have no idea what went wrong last night. I could not get a clear picture of any of the little unknown creatures.

[npaden]

Sounds interesting. I need to get a microscope!

[CrazyLionfish]

NicoleC that is AWESOME!!!! Awesome job and those little YWG are awesome looking!!! I have a YWG now in my nanocube, but hes real shy!

[NicoleC]

Thanks, Matt, I needed that.

I'm feeling a little depressed that so many of my babies died, but I have to remind myself that this is the farthest I've gotten and it's really only my first real hatch to work with.

I'm just not used to not succeeding the first time, so I'm lousy at dealing with failure

[fish_fanatik]

I am so sorry to hear about your losses. I know you have done the very best you can.

is it possible that there is too many fish in such a small space?

[NicoleC]

I don't think so. Water quality is good and a half full 10g seems to be s.o.p. for most larval tanks. Remember, these guys are like 3 to 4mm long and 1/2mm wide -- tiny.

Maybe I had a pH drop overnight, but that doesn't make too much sense either. The larval tank lights come on first, and when I saw the deaths I checked the pH monitor on the main tank (in the same room, lights not on yet) and the pH had only slightly dipped overnight -- so a major pH crash doesn't seem likely either.

Bacterial infection, maybe?

[TippyToeX]

Outstanding thread Nicole, I've learned a lot from it.

Keeping my figures crossed for those that are remaining. The photography of them is stunning. I need to invest in a good microscope.

[laverda]

Nicole For your first batch that is still pretty good from what I have read.

[Luis A M]

Originally posted by NicoleC





Bacterial infection, maybe?

Very posibly.Don´t get dicouraged.Remember that any successful raising of any larva other than clowns,only happens exceptionally at a hobbyist level.It is not simply finding the right food,larvae die at any time and reasons escape us.If it was easier the market would be full of home bred marines.Working together here will make it happen

[NicoleC]

I spent the morning with Wilkersons book to look for more clues. Most everything checks out and she seems very casual about pH. (That doesn't mean it applies to gobies, though.)

Possibly, it could also be oxygen depletion. Rotifer density is higher than I need it in the tank, but I don't have anything yet that I can pull rotifers out while leaving larvae in for a water change. When my plankton collector set comes in from FAF (they shipped it Monday), I'll have a 250 that should do the trick. Meanwhile, I am going to add another airstone.

Maybe I should raise my clown babies instead

[Kathy55g]

Keep your chin up, Nicole. You are doing a great job . Try to figure out the reason why without letting it get you down. I think that is the secret of the best breeders, and scientists for that matter. It is important to think of what others might call a failure--as a learning opportunity. Martin Moe lost a lot of fish before he achieved his success. Keep your chin up, and thanks for documenting your experiences here, as we can all learn something.

[npaden]

Yeah, you are doing great! I have a hard time keeping my L strain rotifers going for my clownfish. Keeping 2 strains of rotifers going and having to keep the eggs tumbling adds a LOT to the equation. Not to mention getting a pair of watchmen gobies together in the first place.

[NicoleC]

Thank you all for the words of encouragement. I'm sorry I haven't posted any pics in a couple of days, but it's not for lack of trying. Nor are these very good. Here's Day 12 AM:





For size reference, the lines on the beaker are 1/32," but of course perspective is a little off, so the gobies are slightly larger in relation to the lines. Maybe 3/8" long.

Alan and Amy had them all on L-strain by now, but I don't have any L to feed them. I don't know why my L strain culture just hasn't taken off. However, I believe I saw them eating the frozen L strain I fed this morning, so I will feed that twice a day in addition to the s strain soup they are swimming in. The frozen sinks to the bottom, and at least the two models I had in the little beaker were generating a lot of activity along the bottom where the rotifers were sinking.

[fish_fanatik]

How many do you still have left?

[NicoleC]

Still around 3 or 4 dozen?

[Kathy55g]

That's a lot of fish! You are still doing very well!

[NicoleC]

We haven't metamorphosis yet. I hope I don't lose too many then.

I'm also a little concerned about not feeding them L-strain. If I start to have losses over the next week, it will probably be a food issue.

[Kathy55g]

Is there really that much difference in size that if they don't get L strain they don't do well? I thought S-strain was just slightly smaller. I would guess that if they were enriched properly, and the larvae can take L-strain, feeding more S- strain would not be a bad thing. I have no idea, however, as I am new to this kind of thing.

How long do gobies take to metamorphose?