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#76
10/27/2005, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Depending how much of a surge you're getting it may end up being more that a trickle over the emergency drain, but that's something I'm sure you can tune as you set things up.. I found the trick was to keep it at a slow trickle so it almost sheets over the emergency drain; anything more and the water freefalls down the standpipe and crashes into the elbow below the tank and makes a lot of noise. Tyler |
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#78
10/28/2005, 09:23 PM
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I have the actuated Jandy Valve set up. I haven't set up the timer but the plumbing is in. I'm not sure how often I'm going to set it to switch. Maybe every 5 or 6 minutes. I'm thinking that will wear the seals out of this "neverlube" valve pretty quickly LOL. I did take it apart and lubed it up with some silicone lube despite it's fancy name...
So here is the setup, powered by a sequence Tarpon (did I mention that pump is huge?)... I have some regrets about going with 1" from the pump to the jandy valve, but space was tight and the pump outlet is only 3/4" so I did step it up a little by going to 1". Still, 1.25" or 1.5" would have been nice, but much harder to work with in the tight space. On the other side of the jandy valve I really did have to use 1" to get it all to fit. When the drain lines and skimmer are in there, it gets way crowded.    In this shot below you can see where the pump is pulling water from the sump through this 1.5" bulkhead fitting. The other tub (left) is the refugium. They're connected together with two 1.5" pipes that drain the fuge back into the sump. I used uniseals there instead of bulkheads. I did leak test it outside, but I'm a little worried about the uniseals. My hole saw is a cheap piece of junk so the holds in the tubs were a little larger than I wanted them, which makes for a less sure fit for the uniseals. 
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#79
10/28/2005, 09:36 PM
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Here is a pic of the connection between the refugium tub and the sump tub. I also connected the tubs at the top (through the curled over lip part) with a couple of stainless steel 1/4-20 bolts with washers and wing nuts, so I can make sure the tubs are tied together securely and avoid putting more stress on the pipes and uniseals connecting them.
 To the right is a platform I made out of "eggcrate" and zip ties to hold my skimmer up higher - Sort of a retangular box. It's sitting on it's side now though... It was really sharp on the bottom, so I cut some vinyl tubing lengthwise and slipped it over the sharp edges so they won't end up wearing holes in the bottom of my cheesy sump tub... |
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#80
10/28/2005, 10:21 PM
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Here is a picture of the whole mess plumbed...
The biggest problem I expect right at the start is my plan to feed the refugium from the skimmer output. The skimmer output is split and part of it would need to go up a couple of inches to make it over the edge of the sump and into the fuge. I have a 1" gate valve on each "brance" off the skimmer, so I can close the low branch down a little bit so that water will flow up and over to the fuge. However, I think this is going to make my skimmer spew all over the place. So I think I'm going to have to tee off the sump return pump or use a seperate pump to feed the sump water to the fuge. We'll see when the wet test starts, maybe this weekend. I'm trying to get some temporary plumbing done inside the tank so that I can get some water in it and fire the pumps up. Anyway, here is the plumbing... 
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#81
10/29/2005, 08:35 AM
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Well, I picked up what I think is the deal of the century on lighting. I have been looking at the 6' Maristar fixture from Sunlight Supply. I was planning on that one because it will hang from the ceiling and I think that fixture looks good and has the combination of bulb types that I want - Metal Halides and T5 Flourescents.
So I bought a used fixture with all stock bulbs, ballasts and hanging hardware, 8 months old, $700. These things are running $1500 or more w/shipping and/or tax, so I saved a boat load of money. I even have the original purchase receipt. It was purchased new just last Feb. So I'm pretty happy about that. So then I promptly tore the dual ballast (Blue Wave VII) apart to rewire it for seperate power cords and seperate switches for the two different lamps. The hardest part was cutting the holes for the additional switch and power cord with my drill and dremel. But I managed to get it done without destroying it too bad, and after I plugged it all in, the lights even came on with no smoke!!! What I did to help make the ballasts as quiet as possible: These magnetic ballasts hum a little bit. The case is made of a top and bottom half that lock together, but they way they interlock leaves some room for vibration (noise) and the end pieces of the ballast case only have a very thin gasket type piece between them that doesn't do much for absorbing vibration either. For the gaskets at the ends I bought a large sheet of black rubber for about $3 from a local surplus store and cut new gaskets. The rubber is about 1/2 mm thick, so it does a much nicer job of damping out vibrations. To fill the gap between the top and bottom shells that make up the ballast case, I just used Lots 'O Caulking where the pieces interlock. That took care of any possible rattle or vibration between the top and bottom pieces. I may need a rubber mallet if I ever want to take them apart again but that's OK. Oh yeah - If you decide to do these mods, most of which should have been done by the manufacturer in the first place IMO, say bye bye warranty. You have to rip the "warranty seal sticker" to get the cases open. The thing is - there is nothing to these ballasts! If I ever need to replace one, I'll build my own I think. I wouldn't be surprised if the most expensive part of the whole thing is the nice aluminum case they are mounted in. Of course, I haven't actually looked into it so I could be wrong there. The last thing I did was replaced the stock (6' long?) power cords with 12' long cords. Home Depot was selling nice outdoor quality 50 ft extension cords for $5 !!! LOL - right next to the 7 ft "replacement tool power cords" that are $7.50. Both are 16/3 stranded and look to be the exact same quality except the extension cords are dark green and the tool power cords are black. So I bought three of these 50 ft extension cords and made 12 ft power cords for the ballasts. The original ballast power cords are all 16/3 and that can easily handle the amp draw of one ballast which is probably only 2.5 amps max continuous (250W/110V + 10%) and maybe 4 or 5 amps at startup - at least that's my guesstimation. So now I have nice long cords. The stock ones wouldn't reach from where I wanted the ballast to where I have the plugs mounted inside the stand. Here are some pics of the opened ballast    And below is after I finished it up and put it back together. Now I can run each light independently. I could have trimmed the black rubber gaskets at the ends down a little closer to the case, but It doesn't bother me and they are hidden away anyhow, so I left it a little oversized.  I also took that big ugly handle off! BUT - if you take that off, I think you'll end up dropping a 1/4-20 steel nut down into your ballast box where there are some strong magnets when it's running. So I don't think you can remove the handle unless you are going to take the ballast apart to get the loose nut out (bye bye warranty) lol. Last edited by rdmpe; 10/29/2005 at 08:55 AM. |
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#82
10/29/2005, 09:17 AM
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Hey,
I'm not sure if this would work, but couldn't you run your refuge feed through the side of the the sump and them into the side of the fuge? You could then run the feed line into the middle of the fuge and point it straight up; that'd aggitate the surface qutie a bit and it would prevent the problem of the feed line going over the top of the sump/fuge. Just a thought.. Tyler |
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#83
10/29/2005, 01:20 PM
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Yeah - I've been thinking about that. I'm just worried about adding more holes through the tub walls (leaks!) I'm already somewhat worried about the two pipes going between the tubs via uniseals. When I tested them they didn't leak, but now that they are actually in the house and under the tank, I'm still concerned.
Another interesting limitation with this set up of mine is that the water level in the fuge cannot be higher than the skimmer outlet or it puts backpressure on the skimmer. The outlet is high enough that I shouldn't have to worry about that though. |
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#84
10/30/2005, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Hmm, I guess you would get a bit of backpressure if the water level was higher. My skimmer output goes up and over the side of the sump; I wonder if I should cut it shorter so the outlet is higher than the water level. Later, Tyler |
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#86
11/02/2005, 07:58 PM
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I don't have those pics yet because I haven't set the bottom manifold up yet. I just have the closed loop blowing out of an elbow so that I can run the pumps and make sure the plumbing under the tank is working properly and not leaking.
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#87
11/02/2005, 08:33 PM
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WET TEST
Well, I have finally filled the tank up and have tested out all of the under-tank plumbing.
The Good News No leaks. I did have to tighten the Dart's drain fitting a little bit but that hardly counts as a leak  I'm very happy about this because I have threaded fittings all over the place - I want to be able to tear it all apart fairly easily if I need to. So all valves, unions, bulkheads, etc. are threaded. I was worried that I'd fill it up and have drips all over the place.The Bad News I'm not very happy with the way my sump return setup is working. The problem is that I have Three Great Things (IMO) that are Not Great Together...
The flow alternating using the actuated jandy valve and timer works fine. I can set it to any interval. The switch from one brance to the other takes about 25 - 30 seconds. When the valve is switching, both branches are open for about 15 - 20 seconds. It sits there with one branch flowing for a certain interval, then switches to the other branch. This in itself works great and I really like the idea of switching the flow. The silent overflow method works just as it should. It doesn't make a peep and it is very stable when the return pump is on one branch or the other. But when the switch is being made and both branches are open, the overflow level rises quickly due to the increased flow. When the penductors are on the outlets, this effect is much more drastic than without the penductors. However, either with or without the penductors, the silent overflow isn't really compatible with the sump return switching due to the variation in flow volume. So what is most important? The number one priority has to be the silent overflow. If my overflow is loud, my project manager will have a major problem with it as will I. The tank has to be as silent as possible. I could put the swithed flow on the closed loop except that I only have two holes for it, not three, and over the side is not an option. So I may have to ditch the whole flow switching scheme. 
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#88
11/03/2005, 02:18 PM
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Wouldn't ya know it - after all that trouble setting up the electrical outlets, I decided to get a reefkeeper to run the lights and heaters / fans. I just couldn't pass it up, $175 shipped. With a dual stage temp. controller and the digital light timer functions, I figured it would be just as expensive to try to do it with seperate components. So I'm gonna have a lot of extra outlets under my tank I guess. Maybe I'll pull the panel of outlets out of the stand and rework it a little bit to encorporate the RK into it.
It would be nice to wire seperate power supplies into the RK so that it isn't limited to a paltry 15 amps total draw. |
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#89
11/03/2005, 03:04 PM
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Bummer that the switching flow is causing the overflow to unbalance.
I had considered putting an Oceans Motion on my return line; I never thought about the possibility of unbalancing the overflow. I find even sticking my arm in the tank to rearrange things causes a temporary imbalance and thus noise.. I think running the switching flow on your closed loop would be the best bet personally. I'm not sure what the solution to the bulkhead limitations is though. Hmmmm. Tyler |
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#90
11/03/2005, 03:05 PM
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Well, I could have the tank drilled, but it is pretty expensive to have someone come and do it on site. I could do it myself except that I'm not sure if I want to try it !!! I'd need a Big Hole for a 1.5" bulkhead...
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#91
11/03/2005, 03:27 PM
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Another thing - I think the way the OM products work, they don't make the total flow vary by as much as the ball valve does. The I think the OM is closing one port while opening another, so the total flow may be much more steady. Not positive about that though. They have a pretty active forum over there though, so you could probably get a quick answer on that question.
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#92
11/03/2005, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
It's not possible to have one of yours open while the other closes at the same time? Or is it still not balanced enough? Tyler |
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#94
11/03/2005, 04:51 PM
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Another thing that has me concerned - I used silicone grease pretty liberally on some plumbing connections and valves. Now that I've had RO water in the tank for a few days and have run the pumps for a couple of hours, I seem to have a film on the water surface that may be from silicone grease. This is probably not a good thing. I wonder if I can make the skimmer take it out even though it is fresh water???
Last edited by rdmpe; 11/03/2005 at 05:08 PM. |
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#95
11/03/2005, 08:18 PM
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You are doing alot with your sump and refuge. I hope that you are going to be able to get it all figured out soon.
As far as your grease problem i think it may be best to just Drain, clean and refill. Bill. |
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#96
11/03/2005, 09:30 PM
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Yeah I think it'll be OK once I drain and clean it. I knew I would need to anyway.
I think I tried to do too much with the flow switching on the sump return. There is just no way for me to do it with the balanced overflow drain. So I'm not sure what I'll end up doing. I'm tempted to sell the Tarpon and buy a second Dart for the sump return and fuge. But then maybe I'll end up having such massive flow through the overflow that it will sound like a waterfall unless I really choke the pump output back. |
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#97
11/04/2005, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
You could always try using a true Durso standpipe and see if that helps. It may be able to handle the varying flow better. I don't know if the Dart will work too well with your penductors though.. I'd stick with the Tarpon even if it's just a fixed return with no alternating current. I've got about 2400 GPH going through my return (oversized Seq1000 pump that was supposed to power skimmer) and I feel it's too much at times.. So there's no way at all to run a drain or return line behind the tank or anything? You could then put the actuated valves on the closed loop possibly... Tyler |
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#98
11/04/2005, 09:36 AM
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If I were to switch to a Dart, I would ditch the penductors. I tell ya - when those penductors are on, the tank flow is really strong. The water surface really is churning from where the flows converge and these penductors are at opposite ends of the 6' tank.
I'm seriously thinking about using a dremel to cut another hole in the bottom of my tank I'd freak if I broke it though! My dremel is about 15 years old though and the bearings are failing, so I'd need to buy a new one to do any serious work with it.But it would be sweet to have my dart's flow switching between two buried manifolds. Here I go again, this is starting to sound hair-brained having two buried manifolds under my 4" dsb.... |
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#99
11/04/2005, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
I think you'd be very happy with a Dart on the closed loop. I have to admit, you're much braver than I if you decide to cut another hole. I would freak if I bust my tank too! If you need to buy a new dremel to do it, perhaps it might be best to pay someone from a glass shop to come down and drill the hole? It would probably work out to be less or about the same, and you've got the peace of mind knowing it'll work. Hmm, with the DSB you'd definitely have room to conceal the lines nicely underneath everything. I still think the Tarpon makes a great return pump; in reality something like that would have been ideal for my setup. If I did it over again I'd have gotten a Tarpon instead of the dart; used my Seq1000 on the closed loop for 5000 GPH on the C/L, and then used the Tarpon as a much slower sump return... Less sump turnover seems better. Tyler |
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#100
11/04/2005, 10:01 AM
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Hmm - probably good advice on the sump return flow. I know that with the tarpon running and not much head pressure (maybe 6' to 8' total) the overflow does make a little waterfall noise, but very muted and actually I like a little waterfall noise. But I imagine if I doubled the flow it would get pretty intense with the water flowing into the overflow chamber, even if only an inch or so drop. Especially since my tank is open on top, no hood.
I think I got a quote a while back for on-site drilling that was approx. $120 or so. I also think they would need me to flip the tank upside-down  I may call them again, but I'm inclined to do it myself. I'll just climb inside it and do it in there... I've read a bunch of success stories here on RC about people doing it, and I have yet to hear of anyone cracking their tank. But grinding my way through 1/2" or 5/8" glass for a 2.5" diameter hole sounds a little daunting...
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